On-grain distillation from Yellow Label "mash"

[Poitín Sue]

Do I need more head space?

Funnily enough I was having my own doh moment on this subject. My 25 litre fermenting bucket obviously isn't enough for approx 8 kg of grain and water....obvious now that I've tried it.....
Would 50 litres be about right?

[NormandieStill]

So I've got crushed malted barley, and I'm trusting my yellow label to do the job of enzymes. But it's only crushed and not the 'flour' that the angel people talk about. I've decided to spread the 8 kilos of grain across 4 pots, simmer them very gently for an hour and then dump them into the fermenter. Throw in suitable amounts of cold water, and the yeast and then say a brief prayer to the spirit of the drip that never gets old. I've a kilo of rye flour which i might throw into the mix also.

As others have said, skip the simmering. My first runs with YLAY were ground with a corona mill (in fact, a relatively cheap copy where I could never get the plates perfectly aligned). At best I got a mix of flour and chunks that worked well enough for beer brewing. I now have a hammer mill which gives me a more uniform grind and take it to a course meal. But having done everything from corona mill rough ground to fine flour I've nto noticed any difference in yield. It may just take a little more time to ferment out.

[Poitín Sue]

Thanks normandiestill. I'll probably get a grinder at some stage. There's an old kitchenaid mixer here somewhere...in the attic I bet. Kitchenaid make a mill attachment. But I bet it'll cost a clean fortune

[Steve Broady]

Thanks normandiestill. I'll probably get a grinder at some stage. There's an old kitchenaid mixer here somewhere...in the attic I bet. Kitchenaid make a mill attachment. But I bet it'll cost a clean fortune

I’ve got both a Corona knockoff and a Kitchenaid mill. The Kitchenaid will work, and you’ll quickly understand why I bought the Corona! The Corona is cheaper, faster (even cranking by hand, but I use a 1/2” battery drill), and can handle a lot more at a time. The Kitchenaid is better for making actual flour, I suppose, and I keep it in case I ever want to do that for culinary purposes, but the Corona is my go-to for distilling grain.

[Poitín Sue]

Thanks Steve broady. I'm sold.

Last night half the bucket consisted of a difficult to stir mass of grain. I split into two buckets and topped off with water.....grain sank to the bottom and sat there in a fairly immobile sullen mass. 24 hours later both buckets are bubbling away merrily and are very liquidy indeed.....I suppose that's the enzymes breaking everything down for the yeast.?

[Steve Broady]

Thanks Steve broady. I'm sold.

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[elbono]

I suppose that's the enzymes breaking everything down for the yeast.?

Mold. Similar to koji.

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[Poitín Sue]

I suppose that's the enzymes breaking everything down for the yeast.?

Mold. Similar to koji.

viewtopic.php?t=76531

Every day's a school day....except when I was actually at school

[bilgriss]

It will generate heat. The fermentation also lowers pH and creates alcohol, reducing fermentable sugars as it goes. Over time, it slows, heat dissipates, and it will become more difficult to fully finish at lower temperatures. Keeping it warm lets it finish more quickly while the yeast is most active.

If you do want to do lower temperature ferments, there are good choices for yeasts that will have no issues with 60-65F temperatures. In fact, most beer yeasts are excellent in this range. The cost a little more though.

[Poitín Sue]

....just appeared in the last couple of days- the wash smells like a bread stout. Is it safe to run? (It's more or less dry
Thanks

[NormandieStill]

Fairly good odds that that's a lacto infection. They generally seem to add desirable esters to the party but if you want to focus on the "pure" flavours in the grain bill then you can run it now.

[Poitín Sue]

Thanks normandistill. It'll be the weekend before I can get to it so I'll have to let it do its thing.
Is this the source of the funk that some local small distillers talk about?

[Poitín Sue]

Thanks Steve broady. I'm sold.

Last night half the bucket consisted of a difficult to stir mass of grain. I split into two buckets and topped off with water.....grain sank to the bottom and sat there in a fairly immobile sullen mass. 24 hours later both buckets are bubbling away merrily and are very liquidy indeed.....I suppose that's the enzymes breaking everything down for the yeast.?

I ran this at the weekend....the wash was a dark ale colour with a slightly smokey stout flavour. Nice smell but you wouldn't drink a load of pints of it....and I suspected it was about 5 abv
Anyways. Started coming off at 50. In my innocence I thought I'd a leak, switched off, let it cool, checked everything and started again. Still 50. Poor yield, low abv and a very flavourful but not terribly nice result ....like burnt bread dough.
I mixed a little with a 6 month old 60abv ujssm. Rounds it out nicely I have to say. Maybe not a complete disaster...probably the first time I made something I didn't like though
Back to the drawing board

[Steve Broady]

Was that a one and done, or double distillation? I don’t think I’ve made anything that was good as a one and done, even if I tried slowing WAY down and making careful cuts.

[Poitín Sue]

I didn't intend it to be one and done...but id such a poor yield and the hearts were so poor that I won't be redistilliing it. Then again maybe how that how a mostly malted grain wash should taste on a first run?

[Dancing4dan]

Thanks Steve broady. I'm sold.

Last night half the bucket consisted of a difficult to stir mass of grain. I split into two buckets and topped off with water.....grain sank to the bottom and sat there in a fairly immobile sullen mass. 24 hours later both buckets are bubbling away merrily and are very liquidy indeed.....I suppose that's the enzymes breaking everything down for the yeast.?

I ran this at the weekend....the wash was a dark ale colour with a slightly smokey stout flavour. Nice smell but you wouldn't drink a load of pints of it....and I suspected it was about 5 abv
Anyways. Started coming off at 50. In my innocence I thought I'd a leak, switched off, let it cool, checked everything and started again. Still 50. Poor yield, low abv and a very flavourful but not terribly nice result ....like burnt bread dough.
I mixed a little with a 6 month old 60abv ujssm. Rounds it out nicely I have to say. Maybe not a complete disaster...probably the first time I made something I didn't like though
Back to the drawing board

Not sure your grind was fine enough. Did you stir the ferment daily for first three days? This combined with. “Crush” vs grind may have affected your output.

Keep your ferment at 32*c for the duration.

Remember, YLY converts carbohydrate to sugar during ferment. This continues throughout the ferment. Measuring specific gravity is not an indication of a completed ferment when using YLY. An iodine test may tell you more during a YLY ferment.

Correct pitch, Daily stirring / aeration for first three days, temperature control, correct grind, are all important with YLY.

Slow star to ferment can give opportunity for an infection to start.

I also find YLY does not like chlorine / chloramine. Side by side comparison shows using Camden tablets results in a more vigorous ferment and increased product.

When doing grain or cereal ferments I use YLY exclusively. Never had a fail.

I don’t think YLY is a good one and done ferment.

[zach]

. Side by side comparison shows using Camden tablets results in a more vigorous ferment and increased product.

What dosing rate?

[Dancing4dan]

. Side by side comparison shows using Camden tablets results in a more vigorous ferment and increased product.

What dosing rate?

I use 1 tablet to 20 gallons

[Poitín Sue]

Not sure your grind was fine enough. Did you stir the ferment daily for first three days? This combined with. “Crush” vs grind may have affected your output.

Keep your ferment at 32*c for the duration.

Remember, YLY converts carbohydrate to sugar during ferment. This continues throughout the ferment. Measuring specific gravity is not an indication of a completed ferment when using YLY. An iodine test may tell you more during a YLY ferment.

Correct pitch, Daily stirring / aeration for first three days, temperature control, correct grind, are all important with YLY.

Slow star to ferment can give opportunity for an infection to start.

I also find YLY does not like chlorine / chloramine. Side by side comparison shows using Camden tablets results in a more vigorous ferment and increased product.

When doing grain or cereal ferments I use YLY exclusively. Never had a fail.

I don’t think YLY is a good one and done ferment.
[/quote]

Much appreciated- grain was definitely crushed so that's likely the main culprit....I used a heat belt but 32 is hard to maintain here.
That's a great guide and I really appreciate you taking the time! I'll consult it for my next mash

[NormandieStill]

Update: I was fettling with the stuff in the cupboards and realised that it's now been 6 months since I put this on oak. A quick sniff and a dipped finger suggested that it has some promise. So I pulled off a glass.

A soft straw colour. Not the dark red / brown that I'm used to from fresh charred oak. Like gold... but pastel.

The nose is soft and creamy. A really (really) faint hint of cocoa, almost not enough to recognise it as anything other than a buttery, creamy sense. There's a little hint of butterscotch in there as well. But it's all super-subtle (and still at cask-strength, which I've not measured, but which must be in the low to mid 60s!). On the tongue there's the chocolate. A tiny hint of tails when aerated, and the burn you would expect for a 60+% abv whisky. Honestly for only six months on a used bourbon stick it's not doing badly.

With the addition of a few drops of water, there's a little grassyness, very much like the smell of straw (and indeed, the smell of the straw in the bag when I mixed it up in the first place.). A little red berry as well. On the tongue the chocolate is still there. The burn is a little diminished, and the straw doesn't make it past the nose. The mouthfeel is oily and it lingers a little.

I think I'm going to have some fun with this one... although re-reading what I just wrote it seems I already did!

[Timoun222]

Hello!
I’ve started a rice fermentation 2 days ago with Yellow Label yeast. Everything seems to be ok till now because I can see a lot of bubble coming out off the drum since yesterday.
I’m gonna let for 10-15 days. I’ve stired it yesterday and today and will probably will do it a last time tomorrow.

My question is :
Should I filter the wash before the stripping run? (I will do a double distillation with a pot still)
Do I only have to rack the clear part or do I have to filter the left over at the bottom of the drum?
Cheers!

[MooseMan]

Hello!
I’ve started a rice fermentation 2 days ago with Yellow Label yeast. Everything seems to be ok till now because I can see a lot of bubble coming out off the drum since yesterday.
I’m gonna let for 10-15 days. I’ve stired it yesterday and today and will probably will do it a last time tomorrow.

My question is :
Should I filter the wash before the stripping run? (I will do a double distillation with a pot still)
Do I only have to rack the clear part or do I have to filter the left over at the bottom of the drum?
Cheers!

Try to stir it more than once a day Tim, making sure you move all of the grain on the bottom, and mix in the cap. I do once in the morning, once when I get home from work, then again before bed, for at least 4 days, and I get great results.

I usually rack/pour off all the clear beer, then use a mesh bag hung from a pulley to get more liquid from the slop.
Or, do a sugar head straight onto the slop, it will take off again straight away from the yeast left in the grain bed.

[Timoun222]

Hello!
After 14 days of fermentation, I’ve checked the alcohol level and I’ve found 4% ABV. My tank is still bubbling a little bit so I will let it for a couple of days more.
I think that the alcohol level is quite low compare to what I’ve seen on this forum.
What do you think?
I have good temperature around 30°C.
Cheers!
Julien

[NZChris]

How did you check the alcohol level?

[Timoun222]

With my alcometer (not digital)

[EricTheRed]

I'm getting ready to try a batch of cornmeal in a 30 gallon brute trash can for maybe a 24 gallon batch.

My garage is about 65 F this time a year. I can insulated the trash can. Does this ferment generate any of it's own heat?

I see the minimum temperature is 82 F and might take 15 days. Will it stall out if it drops to 65 F?

Do I need more head space?

I have fermented a ylay succesfully at < 20⁰ C took longer but finished dry at .990

[higgins]

Alcometers (Proof & Traille hydrometers) will only measure ethanol/water solutions. They don't work in washes, mashes, wine, or distillers beer (or any beer).

A beer hydrometer (measures specific gravity) will give you a valid reading of specific gravity, but you need an original SG reading also to determine alcohol content. You can't get an original gravity when using Yellow Label yeast because it converts starch to sugar while it converts sugar to ethanol.

[Timoun222]

Ohhh thank you, I understand.
I will just check my wash in a couple of days to see if there is still some signs of fermentation then.
I will check it again with hydrometer tomorrow then.
Keep in touch

[Beerswimmer]

When I made a 100% rice with YLAY it produced the most alcohol per pound of any grain I've used.

[Timoun222]

Hi!
I’ve checked with the hydrometer and I have something like 0.995 so I think that it should be okay.
It’s hard to tell as I didn’t do any density measure before fermentation…
I may wait two extra days because I still see some small bubbles showing up at the surface.