Ageing my whisky

[Reefer1]

So i was thinking, i have a couple of gals of whisky aging on oak staves, in demijohns, i wandered about forced aging it.
Thought about harnessing the power of preasure as it would normally happen in a barrel,
I havent tried this yet but i reckon if i can use a rubber cork drill a hole through it, and use a car/bike tyre valve in the hole, i could use my bike pump to put a couple of pumps of air in just enough to apply a preasure in the jar to force the spirit into the pores of the oak, leave it for a week or so then release the preasure, leave a week and keep repeating.
I would need to wire the cork in i guess and only a couple of pumps wouldnt wanna blow the jar appart.
Any one tried this, ??
Any thoughts folks.

[Dancing4dan]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky. Not a fan of the pressure in a demijohn idea. Those things break often enough just lifting them let alone with adding any pressure.

Aging just takes time. Make a good white whisky if you need a drink.

[Twisted Brick]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky.

Sure there is. Whiskey benefits from ambient temperature changes that increase/decrease internal barrel pressure. These pressure changes are critical to the interchange between ethanol, water and the oak 'membrane' that is the barrel. As pressure increases, liquid is forced into the wood of the barrel (and some out of the barrel) and as pressure decreases, liquid is then returned from the oak back into the barrel along with a small amount of ambient air. I am always amazed to smell and taste what I feel is the ambient terrior of a fine bottle of scotch.

The thermal cycling that occurs from temp swings has been studied closely and led to prescribed rotation of barrels by rickhouse floor since the same spirit aged at higher temps creates a different spirit than one aged at a lower temperature. I have a schematic of an example of a rotation regime. IfI find it I can post it.

[Dancing4dan]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky.

Sure there is. Whiskey benefits from ambient temperature changes that increase/decrease internal barrel pressure. These pressure changes are critical to the interchange between ethanol, water and the oak 'membrane' that is the barrel. As pressure increases, liquid is forced into the wood of the barrel (and some out of the barrel) and as pressure decreases, liquid is then returned from the oak back into the barrel along with a small amount of ambient air. I am always amazed to smell and taste what I feel is the ambient terrior of a fine bottle of scotch.

The thermal cycling that occurs from temp swings has been studied closely and led to prescribed rotation of barrels by rickhouse floor since the same spirit aged at higher temps creates a different spirit than one aged at a lower temperature. I have a schematic of an example of a rotation regime. IfI find it I can post it.

measure barrel pressure and show me... Atmospheric pressure is variable. sure.

[jonnys_spirit]

My barrels have always had slightly negative pressure. That’s my experience with both wine and whiskey. I attribute this to the angels share that leaves the barrel. No doubt the barrel “breathes” but my empirical observations are that the angels share leaves and my theory is that process creates a slightly negative pressure. The liquid and swelling make it somewhat “airtight”. Temp swings would affect that for sure. A manometer might prove it…

Cheers,
jonny

[Deplorable]

I happen to have some small scale experience with a recent Badmo Barrel that is about to get shipped back for a replacement. (Thanks Christopher)
While a Badmo barrel is only wood on the lid, it certainly can build pressure. Just opening the spigot with the barrel standing on end will demonstrate whether the contents is under pressure, or vacuum on a given day compared to the last time it was opened to equalize the pressure.

I would advise against trying to use pressure in a glass demijohn. If you really want to try this, I'd suggest using a Cornelious Keg. It's designed to hold pressure.
That said, sticks in glass can make a very passable spirit given time and frequent air exchange and a good shake to aerate the contents.

[Archee72]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky.

Sure there is. Whiskey benefits from ambient temperature changes that increase/decrease internal barrel pressure. These pressure changes are critical to the interchange between ethanol, water and the oak 'membrane' that is the barrel. As pressure increases, liquid is forced into the wood of the barrel (and some out of the barrel) and as pressure decreases, liquid is then returned from the oak back into the barrel along with a small amount of ambient air. I am always amazed to smell and taste what I feel is the ambient terrior of a fine bottle of scotch.

The thermal cycling that occurs from temp swings has been studied closely and led to prescribed rotation of barrels by rickhouse floor since the same spirit aged at higher temps creates a different spirit than one aged at a lower temperature. I have a schematic of an example of a rotation regime. IfI find it I can post it.

measure barrel pressure and show me... Atmospheric pressure is variable. sure.

Maybe “Charles Law” can be applied? Only if the alcohol emits a gas?

[The Booze Pipe]

apply preasure.. in the demijohn to force the spirit into the pores of the oak

Bad idea

I'd suggest using a Cornelious Keg. It's designed to hold pressure.
That said, sticks in glass can make a very passable spirit given time and frequent air exchange and a good shake to aerate the contents.

Good idea

[NormandieStill]

There's a difference between having a pressure difference across a barrel stave (e.g. warm whisky inside and cold air outside), and pressurizing the inside of a container with a stave in it. In the latter there's no pressure gradient across the staves. At best you'll push a little liquid into any unfilled pores until the increased pressure equalises.

From my experiments with wood I would say that if you want faster extraction then use the same surface area but include more end grain (a higher number of shorter pieces). Neither method will accelerate the chemical interaction of the ageing process. Your just getting wood flavours into your whisky faster.

[Twisted Brick]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky.

Sure there is. Whiskey benefits from ambient temperature changes that increase/decrease internal barrel pressure. These pressure changes are critical to the interchange between ethanol, water and the oak 'membrane' that is the barrel. As pressure increases, liquid is forced into the wood of the barrel (and some out of the barrel) and as pressure decreases, liquid is then returned from the oak back into the barrel along with a small amount of ambient air. I am always amazed to smell and taste what I feel is the ambient terrior of a fine bottle of scotch.

The thermal cycling that occurs from temp swings has been studied closely and led to prescribed rotation of barrels by rickhouse floor since the same spirit aged at higher temps creates a different spirit than one aged at a lower temperature. I have a schematic of an example of a rotation regime. IfI find it I can post it.

measure barrel pressure and show me... Atmospheric pressure is variable. sure.

I've always believed pressure exists in a barrel. I wish I could prove it but am no engineer and can only cite what I’ve read from trusted sources like this from Independent Stave Company - ($280M annual revenue):

Independent Stave Company

Now the whiskey must make its way into the barrel and grab hold of these extractives we have created. This process is governed by variations in pressure which are the result of changes in air temperature. Pressure change is directly proportional to temperature change. In other words, a rise in temperature causes expansion which in turn causes a rise in pressure. During the warm summer months, rising pressure in the barrel forces whiskey into the wood and the whiskey comes in contact with these extractives. Then, as the weather turns colder, there is a pressure drop within the barrel and whiskey is pulled back inside bringing the yummy compounds along.

https://www.iscbarrels.com/a-formula-fo ... -andrew-w/

A quick look at the volumetric expansion of liquids to support this lists the relative expansion coefficients for water and ethanol.

The topic of internal barrel pressure was discussed in a previous thread in which still_stirrin mentions that indeed, a manometer could be used to measure changes in pressure that occur.

[Archee72]

Use a magnahelic pressure gauge to measure the difference in pressure inside the barrel to that of the atmosphere outside it.

[Saltbush Bill]

There is no pressure in a barrel of whisky.

Sure there is.

Well sometimes I turn the tap on to get a drink from a barrel and all it does is suck and gulp air, no booze in my jug.
Other times you better stand back and watch out , that shit will come out like its leaving a fire hose, you can end up with a face full and wasted booze if your not careful.
If one isnt a vacuum and the other pressure I don't know what is."

[Dancing4dan]

Interesting! I stand corrected. I haven’t experienced this.

Am not using spigots. The only one I ever used would leak through the oak body of the spigot. Maybe pressure explains why! My barrels are 20 litres and have side bungs. I remove the bung to sample.

Where the barrels are stored does not see any great temperature swings they are stored indoors and the house temperature is fairly controlled. 5 - 10*c variation at most.

I know temperature fluctuation causes faster maturation. That’s the difference between Scottish aging times and Caribbean aging times. Didn’t realize there was such a high pressure change in the barrels.

I need to carry my barrels outside!

[higgins]

...
Well sometimes I turn the tap on to get a drink from a barrel and all it does is suck and gulp air, no booze in my jug.
Other times you better stand back and watch out , that shit will come out like its leaving a fire hose, you can end up with a face full and wasted booze if your not careful.
If one isnt a vacuum and the other pressure I don't know what is."

+1 Bill.

I keep my aging stock in my basement in a temperature controlled insulated cabinet that is manually cycled from 65 to 95F (18 to 35C) every few weeks. When my Badmos were in there, if I pulled a sample when it was hot it would shoot out the spigot quite quickly, but when cool it often sucked air in before a sample dribbled out. As I made more Badmo barrels there was no more room in the cabinet, so I moved them to a rack on top of the cabinet, and now only glass jugs with sticks go inside.


Some of my badmos were made with oak that was only 5/8-3/4" thick - you can see some seepage thru the face of some of them, but they have now sealed up. And the two empty spaces now are full, and I've got two more to make and fill.

But now I'm thinking that I need to put the badmo rack inside the cabinet because they will benefit more from temp cycling than the glass jugs with sticks.

[Reefer1]

Yerrrr, well i put my white dog in the demijohn with the oak staves this time last year, and the ambient temp was pretty cold, i popped the cork couple of days back, and got a big realese of air, not from me lol, so the ambient was 19c the air expanded and obviously the contents where under preasure, just add, i keep my grog in the shed, hence the temp. Variences.
Point taken guys regarding a DJ not exactly being the most suitable vessel for this, to be fair its not a massive preasure, Higgins thats a great stash you have there.!!
Maybe, i suppose just leaving it to do its thing in the shed
Daily hot cold cycling just happens anyway, point taken regarding end more end grain.
Interesting discussion, guys.

[Archee72]

Heat and barometric pressure will affect a sealed vessel. It depends on whether it is the liquid or potentially any gas in the vessel that will dictate what Law it is? Charles Law, Boyles Law etc etc

[Bee]

So i was thinking, i have a couple of gals of whisky aging on oak staves, in demijohns, i wandered about forced aging it.

Staves are so small and get soaked through so quickly I don't think it's worth the effort to try to speed it up. All you are doing is making oak tea anyway. If you have to have oak tea quick, throw some teabags of oak sawdust in there.

[GrannyDaddy4]

In my opinion temperature changes create expansion and contraction that allow the liquid to enter and contact the pore spaces of the wood. Pressure changes due to temperature changes would be slow, gradual, and equal on both sides of the barrel.

[HDNB]

had a tiny pinhole in a 53 gallon, it leaked when it got hot. one hot afternoon i noticed the leak, so i thought i'd dump the barrel....pulling the bung with a slide hammer, it audibly "popped" followed by a "whoosh" of pressure coming out and there was about 10% headroom in there only.

so a fair amount of pressure even to take like maybe a 1/2 second to exit an almost 2" hole...


definitely would not pressure a demijohn, a pound of air in there would make a hell of a bomb. I agree with ^^^ staves are making tea, if you want to make it faster, use warmth. (as opposed to heat in a demi) like sun tea.