1700s rye mash bill

[Bolverk]

Drawing inspiration from old mash bills I decided to make the following as highlighted in the Friedrich Heinrich Gelwicks shoemaker and distiller accounts from 1760-1783.

You may have seen Alan Bishop and Eric Wolfe did a collaboration off this same source. Being the historian Alan is I assumed he used period accurate bushel weights, because his percentage were pretty different than what I came up with, but I used modern bushel weights...

The recipe called for:
1 bushel of rye
1 bushel of malted rye
1 bushel of wheat
3 pecks of oats (a peck is a unit of volume of a quart jar)

You may be wondering where the hell the barley is?! Well, It was very common back in early Pennsylvania whiskey to not use barley because it was so damn hard get... but luckily malted rye has a lot of diastatic power and they were able it use it in place of malted barley.

The following is going to be damn near impossible unless you are able to distill with steam, use a thumper to strip, or you have a bane marie.

Makes a 14 gal batch at starting SG of about 1.060

8.4lbs rye
8.4lbs malted rye
6.9lbs wheat
1.9lbs oats
2 11g packets of Lalbrew farmhouse

Start with 7 gallons of water at 125f and slowly add your grain, cook your grain up to 150f and let rest for 1 hour. Add 5 gals of room temp water, and stir... let this rest over night. There is enough DP in the malted rye to convert this without enzymes. Your starting gravity should be around 1.058-1.060. Pitch your yeast at 90f.

By the time you pitch, there will be a wild yeast and lacto infection already kicking off. Hang a bag of white marble or oyster shells. (I didn't do the bag and I had to correct a ph crash on day 3). Should ferment out in about 5-6 days at room temp (70f for me).

Strip on grain with steam, collect low wines down to about 25% combined abv, or 5% off the still. Spirit run was done with an electric element.  I did add .5 gals of water just to maintain a safe level over my element but afterwards I didn't really need to.

You get the spicy from the raw rye, the nutty/earthy from the malted rye, the citrus and floral from the wheat, and a mouth feel for days from the oats, and it has this sweetness about it that is just unreal. This is unlike any rye I've ever had, it was absolutely delicious. So far I've only had this white, but I'll be doing another batch to age.

[zach]

I've had rye and wheat individually white and the the combination sounds interesting.

I started a un-malted rye yesterday using yellow yeast . It was my first attempt ever with rye. It was a challenge to stir it.

The yeast are working this morning.

I'm tempted to add some wheat and oats after your description.

[Bolverk]

Nice!

From the best I can tell, whiskey wasn't intentionally "aged" before the 1840's, prior to that any aging was coincidental because barrels were their only form of storage. This tells me all whiskey from that era and earlier was made with the intent to be consumed white... cuts had to made to support drinking it young.

I can tell you, the way they complement each other just works.

The malt really makes a difference in the mash viscosity, and flavor. It got a nutty, earthiness but it not like that grass/horse blanket thing you get with some high ryes.

What's really weird is the way the different grains came off the still at different times in the run.... It was almost fractionated like you see with gin. First was the malted rye with a little oat, then the raw rye, then the wheat and oats again.. they were very distinct. Then there was this sweetness that I've never tasted in a whiskey. This is/was arguably the most flavorful drink ive made without it being a bomb that needed dilution (think high ester rum).

[harold01]

I also done rye and oats with yellow label last night, its going nuts today

[Bolverk]

I also done rye and oats with yellow label last night, its going nuts today

Sounds good, I haven't tried YL yet

[zach]

Did you have any issues with foaming during the strip? I've read that can be an issue with rye.

[Bolverk]

Did you have any issues with foaming during the strip? I've read that can be an issue with rye.

Not that I saw, but I spilt the 14 gals into 2 equal strips so I had plenty of head space (7 gals in a 15.5 gal boiler)

[zach]

I now have a sight glass in the riser out of my thumper so I can see If I have a puke before it reaches the condenser. I made the mistake of over-filling the thumper once and had debris coming out the condenser.

[Bolverk]

I now have a sight glass in the riser out of my thumper so I can see If I have a puke before it reaches the condenser. I made the mistake of over-filling the thumper once and had debris coming out the condenser.

That's a good idea.

I have a union t glass on my main boiler, but nothing on my thumper

[shadylane]

I now have a sight glass in the riser out of my thumper so I can see If I have a puke before it reaches the condenser.

Just guess.
Back in the 1700s the distiller probably had a slobber box to keep puke out of the worm.

[Bkvance]

Thank you Bolverk for this recipe! I will have to try this

[NorthWoodsAb]

That sounds like a good recipe. I hadn't really thought about them not intentionally aging spirits at that time. I also know spirits were barreled and shipped that way. Maybe they noticed the barrel effect on spirits after months long sea voyages. Not sure just throwing it out there.
Edit: thanks Bolverk for posting.

[Bolverk]

That sounds like a good recipe. I hadn't really thought about them not intentionally aging spirits at that time. I also know spirits were barreled and shipped that way. Maybe they noticed the barrel effect on spirits after months long sea voyages. Not sure just throwing it out there.
Edit: thanks Bolverk for posting.

Yes that's exactly it. Whiskey used to be cut wider than we are used to now. Not only did that mean people of the time were used to a fuller whiskey, but also that extra time in the barrel helped with some of the more funky stuff.

[higgins]

...
3 pecks of oats (a peck is a unit of volume of a quart jar)
...

Not so. A bushel is 32 dry quarts, and a peck is 1/4 of a bushel, or 8 dry quarts.

3 pecks would be 3/4 of a bushel, or 24 quarts. If you've been using 3 quarts then you've only been using 1/8 of the oats that the recipe calls for.

[Bolverk]

...
3 pecks of oats (a peck is a unit of volume of a quart jar)
...

Not so. A bushel is 32 dry quarts, and a peck is 1/4 of a bushel, or 8 dry quarts.

3 pecks would be 3/4 of a bushel, or 24 quarts. If you've been using 3 quarts then you've only been using 1/8 of the oats that the recipe calls for.

Thanks Higgins!

I still stand by the original mash bill as posted as delicious, but I'll definitely be trying it with the higher oats percentage

[6 Row Joe]

Sounds like a fun rye to make. Love those tasting notes you listed.

[6 Row Joe]

Drawing inspiration from old mash bills I decided to make the following as highlighted in the Friedrich Heinrich Gelwicks shoemaker and distiller accounts from 1760-1783.

You may have seen Alan Bishop and Eric Wolfe did a collaboration off this same source. Being the historian Alan is I assumed he used period accurate bushel weights, because his percentage were pretty different than what I came up with, but I used modern bushel weights...

The recipe called for:
1 bushel of rye
1 bushel of malted rye
1 bushel of wheat
3 pecks of oats (a peck is a unit of volume of a quart jar)

You may be wondering where the hell the barley is?! Well, It was very common back in early Pennsylvania whiskey to not use barley because it was so damn hard get... but luckily malted rye has a lot of diastatic power and they were able it use it in place of malted barley.

The following is going to be damn near impossible unless you are able to distill with steam, use a thumper to strip, or you have a bane marie.

Makes a 14 gal batch at starting SG of about 1.060

8.4lbs rye
8.4lbs malted rye
6.9lbs wheat
1.9lbs oats
2 11g packets of Lalbrew farmhouse

Start with 7 gallons of water at 125f and slowly add your grain, cook your grain up to 150f and let rest for 1 hour. Add 5 gals of room temp water, and stir... let this rest over night. There is enough DP in the malted rye to convert this without enzymes. Your starting gravity should be around 1.058-1.060. Pitch your yeast at 90f.

By the time you pitch, there will be a wild yeast and lacto infection already kicking off. Hang a bag of white marble or oyster shells. (I didn't do the bag and I had to correct a ph crash on day 3). Should ferment out in about 5-6 days at room temp (70f for me).

Strip on grain with steam, collect low wines down to about 25% combined abv, or 5% off the still. Spirit run was done with an electric element.  I did add .5 gals of water just to maintain a safe level over my element but afterwards I didn't really need to.

You get the spicy from the raw rye, the nutty/earthy from the malted rye, the citrus and floral from the wheat, and a mouth feel for days from the oats, and it has this sweetness about it that is just unreal. This is unlike any rye I've ever had, it was absolutely delicious. So far I've only had this white, but I'll be doing another batch to age.

You didn't mention but I imagine you ran the grain through a mill to at least crack it. I reduced the recipe down to 3 gallon for my needs.
2.1 Rye
2.1 Malted rye
1.725 wheat
.475 oats.

I will probably do 2# of the ryes, 1 3/4# wheat, and 1/2# oats. That should get me close and be a little over the magic 2#/gallon mark. May be a little more malted rye for good conversion and more nutty flavors.

[Bolverk]

You didn't mention but I imagine you ran the grain through a mill to at least crack it. I reduced the recipe down to 3 gallon for my needs.
2.1 Rye
2.1 Malted rye
1.725 wheat
.475 oats.

I will probably do 2# of the ryes, 1 3/4# wheat, and 1/2# oats. That should get me close and be a little over the magic 2#/gallon mark. May be a little more malted rye for good conversion and more nutty flavors.

Yes, I put it through a roller, in the future I intend to grind to a heavy flour/meal kind of size.

Proportionally I think that's close enough

[NorthWoodsAb]

Drawing inspiration from old mash bills I decided to make the following as highlighted in the Friedrich Heinrich Gelwicks shoemaker and distiller accounts from 1760-1783.

You may have seen Alan Bishop and Eric Wolfe did a collaboration off this same source. Being the historian Alan is I assumed he used period accurate bushel weights, because his percentage were pretty different than what I came up with, but I used modern bushel weights...

The recipe called for:
1 bushel of rye
1 bushel of malted rye
1 bushel of wheat
3 pecks of oats (a peck is a unit of volume of a quart jar)
.

Hoe big a mash would 3+ bushes of grain be.
A barrel?

Cheers

[NorthWoodsAb]

I just googled a bushel of grain. Wheat=60#, corn 56# so that's a fairly large mash with 180#+ of grain.

[Bolverk]

Hoe big a mash would 3+ bushes of grain be.
A barrel?

Cheers

Yeah, about a barrel

My understanding... The kind of standard ratio of the time was 3 bushels to a hogshead. A bushel was about 45 lbs (depending on the grain) and a hogshead is 65 gal. So depending on how much they filled the hogshead it's 2-2.5 lbs per gallon.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Hoe big a mash would 3+ bushes of grain be.
A barrel?

Cheers

Yeah, about a barrel

My understanding... The kind of standard ratio of the time was 3 bushels to a hogshead. A bushel was about 45 lbs (depending on the grain) and a hogshead is 65 gal. So depending on how much they filled the hogshead it's 2-2.5 lbs per gallon.

Thanks for info and history lesson. I have to try this.

[Bolverk]

Thanks for info and history lesson. I have to try this.

Of course man, let us know if you make it!

[Dr Griz]

Being the historian Alan is I assumed he used period accurate bushel weights, because his percentage were pretty different than what I came up with, but I used modern bushel weights...

So this sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole. Here's what I found:

Since 1681, Pennsylvania operated on the "Great Law" which tied bushel weights to the British "Winchester Measure." This volume measurement is pretty much (within two decimal places) where the modern US bushel sits today.

The real issue is the varying weights of different grains -- these are more or less set by legal standard today, but because they derived from actually measuring the weight of standard volumes, they shouldn't vary except by the kind of year-to-year variance you'd see in any crop. Based on modern standards, the weights of the mash bill work out to:

56 pounds rye
35 pounds malt rye
60 pounds wheat
24 pounds oats (i.e., 3/4 of the 32 lb/bushel standard)

Working it out from there, Bishop's weight percentages are spot on, taking into account the usual rounding to avoid messing with .23 pounds and the like.

I'm looking forward to trying it myself!

[Bolverk]

Thanks for that Griz, I was way low on my rye malt and a little low on my wheat. I appreciate the info, I'll update the weights on my calculator.

[Steve Broady]

56 pounds rye
35 pounds malt rye

That’s a big change from the equal weights of the recipe as posted. Do malted and unmalted rye differ that ouch for an equal volume? Or is this a typo? I’m assuming it’s right, and have no knowledge to question it with, just noting the change.

[higgins]

According to smallfarmcanada.ca a bushel of rye weighs 56 lb & a bushel of 'malt' weighs 34 lbs, so Dr Griz's numbers seem right to me.

[Bolverk]

That 45lb per bushel I found must have been an average or something.

[Steve Broady]

It would be interesting to taste the two versions side by side. I’ve often wondered what effect such specific percentages make. I can make parallels in cooking on both sides.. sometimes a pinch is as good as an inch, sometimes every drop matters.

[Dr Griz]

I remember seeing that same 45 lb average when I was figuring out how many bushels of apples my suspension would handle for an upcoming brandy run!

I hadn't really thought about it before, but it would make sense that different products (potatoes, apples, oats) would have pretty significant differences in weight for the same volume. What was really surprising was the difference in weight between malted and unmalted grains. It took a while to find a chart that included malted rye, but I found it at https://norganics.com/wordpress/wp-cont ... helwgt.pdf.

Thinking on it, I suppose it makes perfect sense, in that unmalted grains aren't exposed to kiln drying, so will have much more water weight.