Maximizing flavor "naturaly"

[Moon_Moon]

Hello all,

This season I've managed to raid my grandpa's plum, pear and apple trees (he is old and not up to the task anymore). I am starting a ferment on all of them and am at a decision on how best to approach this for the end product to have a distinct aroma and flavor of the fermented fruit.

I've read the facts of infusion thread and while the discussion is more on botanicals it made me have some questions, but I didn't want to sidetrack the discussion in there.

I know a good fermentation is the first step and there are definitely things to improve on (more gadgets for testing) but that requires time and experience so I doubt I can change much here in a short time. I macerate, chunk the fruit into a barrel, and seal off (plums I de-pit first).

Nov the first thing that probably affects my end flavor is definitely added sugar (I add cca 10kg per 100l barrel, in freedom units, its 20lb per 20 gal, I think). Sugar makes neutral alcohol and that dilutes the flavor.

Some info on planned distilling
Boilercharge: 45L fastrun diluted to 30%
Thumper1: 5l wash
Thumper2: 5l fast run
Both thumpers are 20L in size

As for my approach to distilling I've read about rum makers and double thumpers how to promote more esters while distilling (although me being a beginer I'm not sure if I'm gonna get the desired esters) I was thinking of charging the first thumper with some fermented wash and the second with some fast run of the fruit. I've done this with my elderflower spirit and it definitely promotes a stronger flavor.

I hate it when ppl add flavors that make the taste of fruits so pronounced that it feels weird drinking it and I know there are limitation to how much flavor you can pass through in distilling.

Reading the infusion stuff and what alchemist75 brought up I'm rethinking my initial plan. I think I should buy some of the fruit(cause I've used all of it ) and maybe macerate it into my fast run and let it soak some time.

Another idea that I got from reading the thread is to partially fill those 2 thumpers with fruit and let them be empty.

Id like to try all 3 approaches but I doubt time will permit it. Im not sure any1 is trying the 2 thumper method so I wont ask about that, what I want to know is from experience what worked better for enhancing the flavor for you guys, spirit vapor through cut fresh fruit or letting the fruit soak in fast run?

Goal is a clear liquid with clearly distinct fruit notes.

Thanks for sharing your info/insights with me.

[Tammuz]

A lb a gal seems a bit much for a fruit wash.
Never made a brandy but played with flavoring some rum washes. Best was wash in the first retort, 60% with some fruits in the second retort ( at this site I guess it should be at 40%) and some spices in the vapor path. This turned out way better than macerating in the boiler.

[ckdistills]

Goal is a clear liquid with clearly distinct fruit notes.

Look into techniques for Eau de Vie. I've also wanted to play with infusing low wines prior to the spirit run and with vapor infusion during spirit run but haven't done so yet. To get fruit character in a white brandy, you need a lot of fruit and good fermentation.

[jonnys_spirit]

Put some skins of the fruit in the vapor path. I do this with "grappa geist" that I also bump with some sugar and wine kit on the second ferment of the pomace. I'll reserve some of the pomace and after I make my hearts cut (slightly wide), i'll do a 3rd distillation (on the small still) similar to a gin except with the pomace in the vapor path. Then do my cuts based on flavor - removing heads and tails or whatever I'm feeling.

It's not the same as a 100% fruit distillation but it carries over some flavor and stretches my yield.

Cheers,
jonny

[Moon_Moon]

A lb a gal seems a bit much for a fruit wash.
Never made a brandy but played with flavoring some rum washes. Best was wash in the first retort, 60% with some fruits in the second retort ( at this site I guess it should be at 40%) and some spices in the vapor path. This turned out way better than macerating in the boiler.

Just to clarify by 60% and 40% we are talking about the amount of liquid in the thumper?

[Moon_Moon]

Eau de Vie looks interesting but not sure why you would not want to substitute the neutral spirit for a distillate of the fruit therefore infusing flavor into an already flavored liquid? Is it oversaturated this way or is the reason for neutral to get a higher ABV in which to soak the fruits? I remember reading that low ABV pulls light flavors while high ABV pulls deeper darker flavors, but the ABV in the Eau de Vie method is not mentioned.

@jonnys_spirit Does not every consecutive distillation take some flavor out or is the power of pomace infusion so good that a third distillation can be made without losing aroma and flavor? Usually, the more destillations I make the more neutral my spirit.

If I could I would distill only once with a thumper but that method for me does not work. I get too much burn on the front of the tongue no matter how slow I run my pot still. With 2nd distillation and a very slow one at that the end product has a warm/burn feeling at the back of the tongue and throat which makes it a night and day difference when drinking it. I also wait 48-72h before making cuts for the volatile alcohols to evaporate.

[JustinNZ]

With plums - if they are falling-off-the tree-ripe - you’ll get good aroma and some flavour from a big plum-only ferment. But for me, the main thing is you’ll get a thick, smooth mouth-feel. I’ve noticed big differences between brandy made from differently-ripened plums. Picking them off the ground is good. No water, no sugar. I just twice pot-distil though. It is generally a challenge working with fruit in terms of flavour. Hope it goes well.

[jonnys_spirit]

@jonnys_spirit Does not every consecutive distillation take some flavor out or is the power of pomace infusion so good that a third distillation can be made without losing aroma and flavor? Usually, the more destillations I make the more neutral my spirit.

I'd infer that yes it does but "it also depends on how you cut it"

Look up some notes on HD about making "Geist". It's a flavorful "Fruit Brandy" type spirit made from neutral with the fruits perhaps in the boiler or vapor path and perhaps with some reflux. Certain of the german brandy geists are from pure fruit and some use neutral as a base spirit and maceration/infusion.

I just adopted this method to stretch my pomace a bit while also using it in the initial distillations and instead of using a completely clean neutral I cut my brandy hearts a bit wide so that on the infusion/maceration final distillation I know that I'll be cutting those hearts a bit more narrow and there's plenty of flavor in practice.

Cheers,
jonny

[Tammuz]

A lb a gal seems a bit much for a fruit wash.
Never made a brandy but played with flavoring some rum washes. Best was wash in the first retort, 60% with some fruits in the second retort ( at this site I guess it should be at 40%) and some spices in the vapor path. This turned out way better than macerating in the boiler.

Just to clarify by 60% and 40% we are talking about the amount of liquid in the thumper?

No I was referring to ABV. It's safer to run at 40%. The man I was working with uses 60%, but it's his shed. Spicing up rum is like drinking a bourbon with Coke, You're trying to hide something.

[Moon_Moon]

@Johny Thanks for pointing out a direction for me to look into. Gheist looks promising the way you describe it. Will check it out.

@Tammuz Sorry talking about wash confused me. I don't even know how I could get my wash to be 60%, I guess its every distillers dream .

Ye I was reading deep into 2 retorts/thumpers and the language around is either intentionally secretive or made to be confusing. High wines and Low wines one would thinking ABV 60%+ and the latter 40% or lower, but then some old publication and I think was also from Hampden estate said that high wines are 70-60% ABV and love wines were 60-50% ABV.

Pretty much still stabbing in the dark with the retorts. I was thinking more esters more character in my drink but then again I have no control on which esters form and what exactly is optimal and high ester count is pretty much all Rum talk which I have not yet attempted. So far I only did apples, plums, pears, elderflower and SSSJ. Im starting to get the confidence to attempt making a whiskey with barley, corn and rye. Need more fermentation experience first tho. So far its been, chuck things in a barrel get ph to 5-6(SSSJ is 4-4.5), chuck in yeast and yeast food and then pray it ferments .

So far my fermentation never stalled but I have no clue if what I'm doing is good or bad for flavor.

Little steps

Apreciate all the input.

[A BIT DIFFERENT]

Good day good people

I prefer and predominantly do fruit schnapps. No oaking or anything, just straight good clear schnapps. So far up to now I have always looked up recipes for quantities eg, water to fruit, or sugar to fruit etc. Then if I cannot find a recipe for the particular fruit I always default to a strawberry wash I found here quite some time ago, and although this works to a certain extent, I have found at times that I need to add sugar to bring up the SG. I was wondering if anyone here could steer me in the right direction as to a sort of "rule of thumb" when presented with a fruit. To explain myself better, if I have apples which we know have on average about 11.8 grams of sugar per 100 grams of weight, is there a standard volume of water, as per the known content of sugar in the fruit, that needs to be added, to retain as much flavor as possible, but also to maximise potential yield of alcohol?

[jonnys_spirit]

Best case in my opinion is to not use any water or sugar, press out the juice, ferment, and run it with the peels either in the vapor path or boiler. May just even chop up the whole fruits, add some pectic enzyme and ferment on the solids. The skins do contain a lot of flavor if you want to try to utilize that. The apple I have used typically comes in at about 1.050 SG give or take and folks seem to suggest that a blend is better than a single varietal. Add some crab apples if you can get em.

Adding sugar will dilute the flavor but I understand the desire to stretch it and boost alcohol for more yield. Perhaps consider making a portion of dry apple wine to proof your spirits to bottle strength?

Cheers,
jonny

[A BIT DIFFERENT]

Great reply. Thank you. I live in South Africa and have a friend whose great great great grandfather taught all the sons who taught the grandsons and so on the art. The main ingredient for them of course was peaches from which the famous witblitz (white lightning) or mampoer (moonshine) was made. He was telling me exactly the same thing when I first started. They would just collect the very ripe peaches off the ground, give them a quick rinse and that was it.

[Reefer1]

I never done a fruit brandy, i got my first taste of calvados last year and i really like slit so i was thinkin about havin a bash at it.
I was wandering the best way to get that apple over to the distilate.
Some info here i could consider.
Reefer1

[squigglefunk]

when doing fruit i find the best option is to go low and add as little or no sugar for the best flavor, double distilled, save everything from the stripping run, run down to as low abv as you can stand, i usually go to where it started. If it was a 5% ferment I run it out to 5% coming off the still on the stripping run. There's much flavor in the end of the stripping run that will be left behind.

[shadylane]

Maximizing flavor "naturaly"

Seems to me all the traditional stills built to make brandy are simple pot stills. None of them are using thumpers.
I figure there's a good reason for this.

My suggestion is ferment fruit without additional sugar, only use sugar if the fruit has less than 5% potential alcohol.
Most of the fruit character in brandy, is in what would be considered the heads if talking about whiskey, rum or a sugar shine.
Save and recycle the heads back into the next stripping run. The extra alcohol will raise the ABV and also act as a solvent to get more character off the fruit pulp so it can be distilled.

[Reefer1]

Some good info there thanks guys,