Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Garouda
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Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Garouda »

Yellow Label Angel Yeast.pdf
Copy of what's explained on Angel Yeast's website
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PalCabral wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 11:17 am But I do know I prefer to ferment off grain, so regardless, Yellow Label is probably not for me. :wink:
In fact, I usually do not ferment on grains, however, you won't have any diastatic power calculation issue with this yeast.
I'm now fermenting on grain, and it isn't a big issue, providing your mash tun/fermenter is large enough.
Well, Saltbush Bill gave you an incomplete answer...
"You don't need to mash anything when using the Yellow Label starter of liquor making yeast”.
Indeed, but in Rome do as the Roman do, and Chinese Baijiu is based on steam cooked rice.
There's no free lunch, if you skip the mashing process, there's a drawback, the fermentation process takes longer as Angel Yeast themselves write it on their website, 4 to 8 days in one situation, 8 to 15 in the other, plus more yeast.
You are right, mashing grains does not only gelatinize starches, but also enables the development of specific flavours.
That's one of the reasons why I use whole rice, with husks, in my Local Whiskey Recipe.
Here:viewtopic.php?p=7803845#p7803845
You also may have read posts related to bad smell, in other words, contamination.
That's another reason why I steam cook my rice, and gelatinize my corn, keeping the T° above 80 °C for how long the gelatinization process takes (+/- 60 minutes).
If you have a large quantity of corn, α−amylase can be added at the beginning (0.02% w/w of cereal) to reduce the viscosity (avoid a big clump of polenta). This is what I usually do and it helps. (The Alcohol Textbook, page 16)
I'm using stainless steel vessels, and this makes a good sanitization possible and easy.
In a nutshell, why should we mash our grains with YLAY?
1. As you wrote, development of flavours;
2. Shorter fermentation cycle than with uncooked grain;
3. Sanitization of your equipment.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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I use a sort of mash/no mash method when using YLAY and it seems to speed up ferment times. If i'm using all non malted grain, then everything goes into fermenter before i dump boiling water on it. By the time its cooled to yeast temp, usually overnight at least, its gelled the corn quite nicely. Usually ferments in about a week but i run it 2 weeks after just to make sure. If im using some malted grains then they get added the following morning when its come down in temp a bit.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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SW_Shiner wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:23 pm I use a sort of mash/no mash method when using YLAY and it seems to speed up ferment times. If i'm using all non malted grain, then everything goes into fermenter before i dump boiling water on it. By the time its cooled to yeast temp, usually overnight at least, its gelled the corn quite nicely. Usually ferments in about a week but i run it 2 weeks after just to make sure. If im using some malted grains then they get added the following morning when its come down in temp a bit.
Thank you, it's very useful to have replies posted by people who do have some real experience with YLAY.
It's the first time I'm using it, but I'm convinced, it's a very efficient product.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by SW_Shiner »

I agree, I have used it without mashing at all. Just warm water and add yeast, but I didn't like how long it took to finish. IMO, the time and energy it takes to heat the water is worth the shorter ferment times for me.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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If you have a suitable backset coming up, you can use that rather than boiling water. During the run I save the water coming off the Liebig as it is quite hot, then add the backset and dump the grain in. If I need any more water, I put it in the still to heat it.

I watch the change in Refractive Index to see when it goes dead, usually around 8 days.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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SW_Shiner wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:18 pm I agree, I have used it without mashing at all. Just warm water and add yeast, but I didn't like how long it took to finish. IMO, the time and energy it takes to heat the water is worth the shorter ferment times for me.
The shorter the fermentation cycle, the lower the risk of contamination.
In Ian Smiley's "Making Pure Corn Whiskey" he also insists on having a short fermentation cycle, no more than 96 hours. Page 62:
"In order to be sure to avoid the dreaded esters, a mash fermentation should be distilled as soon as the vigorous primary fermentation slows down to a slow spurious bubbling, regardless of how complete the fermentation was, generally no more than 96 hours after adding the yeast."

I must admit, it was the first time I heard about dreaded esters…
Any way, you add boiling water, which already eliminates all nasties and starts a partial gelatinization process.

I checked the SG and fermentation is completed, 6 days but in fact less than that because I added sugar in two steps (two kg twice).
Last edited by Garouda on Mon Mar 17, 2025 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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NZChris wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:58 pm If you have a suitable backset coming up, you can use that rather than boiling water. During the run I save the water coming off the Liebig as it is quite hot, then add the backset and dump the grain in. If I need any more water, I put it in the still to heat it.
I watch the change in Refractive Index to see when it goes dead, usually around 8 days.
Right, I also use some bakset stillage, but not all, too much can have a negative impact. Besides lowering the pH, see this:
The Alcohol Textbook, page 16:” However, too much backset stillage can result in the oversupply of certain minerals and ions that suppress good
fermentation. “

Amazing recycling of hot water from the Liebig! I cannot reuse that water because it's non-treated water from a well with too much calcium, magnesium and iron whereby iron is the main problem, enzymes do not like too much iron...
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Dancing4dan »

I have been doing only YLY ferments because of the huge time savings. Add water and grains to get a temp of 32*c. Most times add additional enzymes to thin and it seems to get ferment going sooner. Pitch YLY. Don’t really care about the time it takes to ferment because it does so with no effort on my part. Stir once a day for first three days. Maintain 32*c until the ferment is very slow.

That stirring is a potential for contamination so use a little star San on spoon or paint stirrer.

Cold crash when it is done.

Never check gravity.

From start to finish my YLY process takes one hour including set up, mix, clean up and put everything away.

I only use grains and cereals that have a very low probability of carrying any contamination. Malts from a malt house I know and trust. Corn meal from Costco.

If I was going back to livestock feed grains and corn then a boil or steam mash would be needed.

Any time I have used an old YLY yeast bed to do another ferment it has turned to crap. :sick:
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Dancing4dan wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 8:21 pm I have been doing only YLY ferments because of the huge time savings.
That stirring is a potential for contamination so use a little star San on spoon or paint stirrer.
Cold crash when it is done.
Never check gravity.
From start to finish my YLY process takes one hour including set up, mix, clean up and put everything away.
Any time I have used an old YLY yeast bed to do another ferment it has turned to crap. :sick:
Thank you for sharing your experience.
As a cap forms over the wort, I have to push it in, and I use a mash paddle likewise previously disinfected with Star San.
So far I'm concerned, time matters because I'd like to start the next fermentation as soon as possible. Under tropical climate, the favourable window goes from November to March at the latest. However, since I discovered Red Label Angel yeast, which is enzyme-free, but can maintain T° up to 42°C, I could use this yeast for Bob's Buccaneer rum, Ted's sugar wash, or any malted barley recipe (single malt) at any time of the year.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Besides neutral spirits, has anyone done a side by side comparison between a flavored and matured whiskey, one made the ”classic” way by cooking and mashing, the other with only fermenting with YLAY?

I guess such a test would only be fair if you use YLAY for both ferments, or find a similarly neutral yeast for the ”classic” test case?
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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PalCabral wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 10:08 pm Besides neutral spirits, has anyone done a side by side comparison between a flavoured spirit like a whiskey or brandy, one made the ”classic” way by cooking and mashing, the other with only fermenting with YLAY?

I guess such a test would only be fair if you use YLAY for both ferments, or find a similarly neutral yeast for the ”classic” test case?
Well, neutral spirits are normally based on a sugar wash, the use of YLAY instead of a basic baker's yeast does not make that much sense to me.
I did not make such a comparison between mashed and not mashed brews, but tried different methods and yeasts for my 'local whiskey' recipe. The first lot used Angel yeast gold label, not the baker's yeast but a yeast also containing some enzymes. For the second I used Red Label Angel yeast, which does not have any enzymes but has other interesting features like T° tolerant (42 °C), ethanol tolerant 17%ABV, acid-tolerant (pH2.5), glucose up to 60%. Well, I had to play around with alpha amylase and glucoamylase. The third and current one uses YLAY. As I wrote in my thread about my local whiskey, I was about to give up because working with relatively large amounts of sticky rice and corn is a PITA. I changed my mind after the current third attempt and as soon as the people down the village are harvesting their corn, I'll make a new set of three batches (indeed, I usually use three stripping runs for one spirit run).
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Garouda wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 10:41 pm Well, neutral spirits are normally based on a sugar wash, the use of YLAY instead of a basic baker's yeast does not make that much sense to me.
I did not make such a comparison between mashed and not mashed brews, but tried different methods and yeasts for my 'local whiskey' recipe. The first lot used Angel yeast gold label, not the baker's yeast but a yeast also containing some enzymes. For the second I used Red Label Angel yeast, which does not have any enzymes but has other interesting features like T° tolerant (42 °C), ethanol tolerant 17%ABV, acid-tolerant (pH2.5), glucose up to 60%. Well, I had to play around with alpha amylase and glucoamylase. The third and current one uses YLAY. As I wrote in my thread about my local whiskey, I was about to give up because working with relatively large amounts of sticky rice and corn is a PITA. I changed my mind after the current third attempt and as soon as the people down the village are harvesting their corn, I'll make a new set of three batches (indeed, I usually use three stripping runs for one spirit run).
Yes, you are of course right about the neutral - I was probably meant to say clear unaged spirit, white dog. I think any spirit will need some time to settle before a side by side is really useful.

But I did read in the other thread that Beerswimmer had done some tests that were promising, albeit raw stuff, not matured. He was happy with the flavors though. It will be interesting to see if this liquor ages well - in theory why shouldn't it, I guess I am just sceptic before convinced. Personally, I'm not looking for a neutral yeast when making Whiskey, and I noted your comment about Esters after your quote from "Making pure corn whiskey" :) , as I want a bit of esters and a bit of oumpf from the yeast, not much but there. And pure corn whiskey is not my todo list, to me it's the same as pure sugar wash. I prefer vodka with some grain flavor, wheat, rye, potatoes.

I do see the great benefit of this yeast package when it comes to Rye whiskey/vodka/maltwijn/korn and Oats whiskey, and as you say really anything with a lot of uncooked fermentables. Potatoes should be super interesting with YLAY.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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PalCabral wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 12:16 am I noted your comment about Esters after your quote from "Making pure corn whiskey" :) , as I want a bit of esters and a bit of oumpf from the yeast, not much but there. And pure corn whiskey is not my todo list, to me it's the same as pure sugar wash. I prefer vodka with some grain flavor, wheat, rye, potatoes.
About dreaded esters, it's something I read in that book. I've no idea about what it is in reality…
I put several books on a Google Drive, here's the link to the thread where I mention the list of those books.
viewtopic.php?p=7803275#p7803275
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Garouda wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 1:02 am
PalCabral wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 12:16 am I noted your comment about Esters after your quote from "Making pure corn whiskey" :) , as I want a bit of esters and a bit of oumpf from the yeast, not much but there. And pure corn whiskey is not my todo list, to me it's the same as pure sugar wash. I prefer vodka with some grain flavor, wheat, rye, potatoes.
About dreaded esters, it's something I read in that book. I've no idea about what it is in reality…
I put several books on a Google Drive, here's the link to the thread where I mention the list of those books.
viewtopic.php?p=7803275#p7803275
Unfortunately, I can't open the files. User error, I am sure, but nevertheless. :econfused:
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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I tried, got to drive and could download the alcohol textbook, no problem
I opened it this time through my Yandex browser, no problem as you can see...
I opened it this time through my Yandex browser, no problem as you can see...
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Dancing4dan »

PalCabral wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 10:08 pm Besides neutral spirits, has anyone done a side by side comparison between a flavored and matured whiskey, one made the ”classic” way by cooking and mashing, the other with only fermenting with YLAY?

I guess such a test would only be fair if you use YLAY for both ferments, or find a similarly neutral yeast for the ”classic” test case?
Yes. This has been done and repeatedly commented on in these forums.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by higgins »

PalCabral wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 10:08 pm Besides neutral spirits, has anyone done a side by side comparison between a flavored and matured whiskey, one made the ”classic” way by cooking and mashing, the other with only fermenting with YLAY?

I guess such a test would only be fair if you use YLAY for both ferments, or find a similarly neutral yeast for the ”classic” test case?
YES, although it is not yet mature (10 months in badmo clones).

I think that if you used YLAY on both, it would be similar to comparing the cook vs no-cook methods described in the YLAY instructions. What I wanted to compare was a YLAY bourbon with a bourbon mashed and fermented in the 'classic' way, using a traditional bourbon yeast. I did a dump and stir batch with YLAY (I used 2g per lb (.45kg) grain), and a cook/mash batch with bourbon yeast.

The grain bill on each was 70% corn, 22% rye, 8% malted barley. On each batch I:
  • reserved 4 gallons of fermented beer
  • stripped the rest.
  • combined reserved beer and low wines
  • ran thru a 4" flute using 3 sieve plates.
There was a subtle difference in the white dog (the YLAY batch had a slight 'funkiness' to it), but they were very similar. They have been aging in 5 liter badmo clones since last May, and during a sampling in early December we noticed that the 'funkiness' was considerably less and they were even more similar. I'm taking them to the next SE Meetup and will gather comments from other HD'ers.

I've used YLAY in 4 other batches too - all of them 'dump and stir', meaning I did no cooking. I just ground the grain and dumped it into 104F (40C) water, mixed, pitched YLAY and covered, keeping it about 90-95F (32-35C) & stirring twice daily for at least 3-4 days.
2 batches were with 100% soft white wheat, stripped, then run thru a VM for a very nice vodka and gin base
2 others were with 100% flaked rye (1 thru a flute, 1 thru a potty) for whiskey. These are young (6 mo, 1 mo) so no sampling yet.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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higgins wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:26 am
YES, although it is not yet mature (10 months in badmo clones).

I think that if you used YLAY on both, it would be similar to comparing the cook vs no-cook methods described in the YLAY instructions. What I wanted to compare was a YLAY bourbon with a bourbon mashed and fermented in the 'classic' way, using a traditional bourbon yeast. I did a dump and stir batch with YLAY (I used 2g per lb (.45kg) grain), and a cook/mash batch with bourbon yeast.

The grain bill on each was 70% corn, 22% rye, 8% malted barley. On each batch I:
  • reserved 4 gallons of fermented beer
  • stripped the rest.
  • combined reserved beer and low wines
  • ran thru a 4" flute using 3 sieve plates.
There was a subtle difference in the white dog (the YLAY batch had a slight 'funkiness' to it), but they were very similar. They have been aging in 5 liter badmo clones since last May, and during a sampling in early December we noticed that the 'funkiness' was considerably less and they were even more similar. I'm taking them to the next SE Meetup and will gather comments from other HD'ers.
It will be really interesting to see how the two stack up when you do. Are you using malted grains at all in your batches?
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

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Garouda wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 7:33 pm
NZChris wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:58 pm If you have a suitable backset coming up, you can use that rather than boiling water. During the run I save the water coming off the Liebig as it is quite hot, then add the backset and dump the grain in. If I need any more water, I put it in the still to heat it.
I watch the change in Refractive Index to see when it goes dead, usually around 8 days.
Right, I also use some bakset stillage, but not all, too much can have a negative impact. Besides lowering the pH, see this:
The Alcohol Textbook, page 16:” However, too much backset stillage can result in the oversupply of certain minerals and ions that suppress good
fermentation. “

Amazing recycling of hot water from the Liebig! I cannot reuse that water because it's non-treated water from a well with too much calcium, magnesium and iron whereby iron is the main problem, enzymes do not like too much iron...
Garouda I've done quite a few YLAY ferments now, with all kinds of grain, using 10-15% backset each time, and with no problems at all.
The grain will buffer the pH drop from that amount of backset, and if you have lots of calcium in your well water (Higher than neutral pH probably?) that will also offset the acid backset so you could maybe go higher.

Regarding the iron in your well water, there are cheap and simple ways to reduce that quite easily, and if you set up an RO system you can then use that water for everything.

I do similar to Chris, but I while I'm running strips I actually run the water as slow as I can get away with, through my Liebig to get it as hot as possible, and run the steaming hot water onto the grain in my fermenters to set up my YLAY ferments.
Once the strip is finished, I then pump hot backset straight from the still, into the fermenter to make up the last 10-15% of liquid volume.
I wrap this up hot, and it will take at least 24hrs to get to 35°C so the grain is well gelled before pitching.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by higgins »

PalCabral wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:53 am ...
Are you using malted grains at all in your batches?
No malted grains other than the barley I use for single malts and the typical 5-15% of a bourbon mash bill.

But that will probably change, as I have a line on some malted bloody butcher corn.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Garouda »

MooseMan wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 9:09 am Garouda I've done quite a few YLAY ferments now, with all kinds of grain, using 10-15% backset each time, and with no problems at all.
Of course, exactly as I wrote: not too much, and I'm also regularly using it,10-15% will never harm…
Here is a more comprehensive quote of that bool:" The quantity of backset stillage as a percentage of the total liquid varies from 10 to 50%. On
one hand, the backset stillage supplies nutrients essential for yeast growth. However too much backset stillage can result in the oversupply of
certain minerals and ions that suppress good fermentation.
"
MooseMan wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 9:09 am Regarding the iron in your well water, there are cheap and simple ways to reduce that quite easily, and if you set up an RO system you can then use that water for everything.
Well, reverse osmosis is not what I would use in my situation.
This picture shows the extent of the difficulty:
Where water overflows, you can notice that it contains a lot of iron.
Where water overflows, you can notice that it contains a lot of iron.
So far I pump the water in 1700-litre concrete jars, and let oxygen in the air change the partially reduced soluble Fe2+ into rusty non-soluble oxidized Fe3+. Water will remain about one week in the first set of jars and after, will go by gravitation to two other concrete jars, experiencing further oxidation. The water stays there for another week before being pumped to a ss water tank slightly uphill to get some pressure. The idea is that Fe3+ is going to settle during those two weeks. A set of filters (20 microns, 5 microns, 1 micron + active coal) removes the rust particles from water before entering the house.
Furthermore, I'm about to modify my water treatment system.
The project I have is to install an Ion exchange system to get rid of the overabundant Calcium and Mg. I may add a greensand filter to remove iron in excess, depending on the water analysis.
Thanks for the hint anyway, I appreciate.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by NZChris »

Backset from a spirit run can be used too, not much in the way of minerals in it. It might have useful flavors, it is used in some rum protocols.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Garouda »

NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:07 pm Backset from a spirit run can be used too, not much in the way of minerals in it. It might have useful flavours, it is used in some rum protocols.
Shall we call it feints in that case ?
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by NZChris »

I wouldn't think so.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by PalCabral »

Having a think about costs for malts and adjuncts, the case for YLAY becomes more attractive. For my wheated Bourbon, I am using Torrefied Flaked Maize/Corn from Crisp's and a 25kg bag is 50USD, whereas the same amount of cracked corn cost 32 bucks, so 30% cheaper. Sweden isn't exactly a big producer of corn, nor a big consumer, and I am sure I could find a slightly cheaper corn product, but from a pure cost perspective, being able to use non-malted/treated products bring the overall cost down significantly. It could change how I see fermenting on grains.
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by Garouda »

PalCabral wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 10:50 am Having a think about costs for malts and adjuncts, the case for YLAY becomes more attractive. For my wheated Bourbon, I am using Torrefied Flaked Maize/Corn from Crisp's and a 25kg bag is 50USD, whereas the same amount of cracked corn cost 32 bucks, so 30% cheaper.
What about cracked corn as feedstock for poultry, or flaked corn as feedstock for horses?
Here I get my sticky rice at production cost, never made the calculation, though, and I got 100 Kg of corn for USD 35.75, from my wife's relative down the village.
Belgian Castle Malting Pilsner two rows is more expensive, USD 47.50 for 25 Kg.
Gladfield's Distillers Malt, USD 67.30 for 25 Kg, I won't buy it again, too expensive.
I can find Castle Malting 6RWS, USD 40.20 for 25 Kg.
At the local Makro a bag of 25 × 1 Kg cane sugar sells for USD 19.20, and at another place I get 10 Kg black strap molasses for USD 4.90.
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MooseMan
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by MooseMan »

Garouda wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:05 pm What about cracked corn as feedstock for poultry, or flaked corn as feedstock for horses?
I use flaked grain for YLAY mainly, the hot water soak breaks it down very well.
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PalCabral
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by PalCabral »

Garouda wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:05 pm What about cracked corn as feedstock for poultry, or flaked corn as feedstock for horses?
Here I get my sticky rice at production cost, never made the calculation, though, and I got 100 Kg of corn for USD 35.75, from my wife's relative down the village.
Belgian Castle Malting Pilsner two rows is more expensive, USD 47.50 for 25 Kg.
Gladfield's Distillers Malt, USD 67.30 for 25 Kg, I won't buy it again, too expensive.
I can find Castle Malting 6RWS, USD 40.20 for 25 Kg.
At the local Makro a bag of 25 × 1 Kg cane sugar sells for USD 19.20, and at another place I get 10 Kg black strap molasses for USD 4.90.
Great advise. Checked the feedstore and cracked corn was a lot cheaper - 24USD for 18 kg. No info about the product though, I guess boiled water is essential to kill anything that might exist in the corn. The prices for brewing are insane though - talk about jacking up the prices.
MooseMan wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:25 am I use flaked grain for YLAY mainly, the hot water soak breaks it down very well.
30 bucks for 18 kg in the feedstore here. What do you pay for it where you are, Moose?
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by MooseMan »

PalCabral wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 11:45 am
MooseMan wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:25 am I use flaked grain for YLAY mainly, the hot water soak breaks it down very well.
30 bucks for 18 kg in the feedstore here. What do you pay for it where you are, Moose?
I pay approx £9-13 for 20kg sacks of flaked maize here, a little more for other grain.
All from the animal feed stores.
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PalCabral
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Re: Mashing or not mashing, that's the question...

Post by PalCabral »

MooseMan wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:13 pm I pay approx £9-13 for 20kg sacks of flaked maize here, a little more for other grain.
All from the animal feed stores.
I've been using Torrefied Flaked Corn from Crisp's, bought from my LHBS. I realize I should have gone to the feedstore and saved myself 20 bucks. Do you recommend scalding them in boiled water?
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