Deep cuts

[Craftdstllr]

I've been running whiskey and bourbon for a couple years. Cuts have always made sense to me. I use the column temp as a rough guide, collect samples in 8 oz jars until the tails are noticeable (wet cardboard/dog smell). After letting the jars set for 2 weeks to 2 months, I sample and blend. In my opinion, my results have been very good.
Today, I am running a scotch recipe that I developed. I ran 3 strip runs, and am on the finishing run. The column temp is 198, this is past where I normally stop collecting samples and continue collecting tails. The ABV of the product is around 40%. The product tastes good at this ABV. In fact, it may have a better flavor than the samples I took at 65% ABV. I plan on continuing to take 8 oz samples until the distillate tastes/smells bad. Has anyone experienced good flavor this far into the run?
I am running a 13 gallon stainless steel boiler with a 2" copper tower that is only 4" tall. This is as close to a pot still as I can get. The boiler was charged with around 8 1/2 gallons from the 3 strip runs. ABV of the charge was 36%.

[SW_Shiner]

There can be lots of good stuff after the "tails" come. Thats one of the reasons its said to strip till about 5%ABV off the spout, along with not leaving good alcohol behind. I also use some of the cuts after the funky tails to lower my final proof to barrel strength. Sweet water i believe its called.

[NZChris]

In my shed if a jar improves the hearts then it's hearts, regardless of where it was in the run. Because I aim for a low abv when stripping, there is seldom a need to dilute to barrel strength.

A warning though, if you like your whiskey to be crystal clear, the extra flavors from a wide cut could cause misting when you dilute for bottling.

[fiery creations]

Yes. My whiskey was bland until I started stripping deeper, and cutting further into the spirit run. I look it as four sections now. Heads, hearts, flavor, and tails.

A decade of taking only “hearts” was sub par. Some will say hearts is what makes the cuts. Semantics….call it late hearts, early tails, or whatever… but I look at hearts as the most neutral part in the middle. Taking only that kinda sucks.

I drew this based on my own nose and experience.

[Saltbush Bill]

And that is why it's not a good idea to use temprature as a guide for making cuts.
Thermometers don't have taste buds.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

[subbrew]

My experience is, unless you are running the same recipe, yeast and ferment regime over and over the cut points vary. I do look at the abv of my jars to give an indication, but I have made the tails cut at as high as 62% and as low as almost 50%. As SBB said, "taste buds". I would add "nose".

I personally like making cuts. It is not always easy but recipe creation and cuts are the two places you can really put your spin on the outcome. A good fermentation and actual distilling are mostly science, some biology, water chemistry and thermodynamics. Recipe development and cuts are my little chance at art.

[PalCabral]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

+1
Of all the things on my still, the two thermometers are the most useless. I even rate a parrot higher than the thermometer, and a parrot is pretty useless, IMHO. I measure the alcohol level regularly during a stripping run and for every jar I fill in a spirit run. That and keeping an eye on the flow rate are the only gauges I need. The rest is smell and taste.

I personally like making cuts. It is not always easy but recipe creation and cuts are the two places you can really put your spin on the outcome. A good fermentation and actual distilling are mostly science, some biology, water chemistry and thermodynamics. Recipe development and cuts are my little chance at art.

Making cuts is fun but scary as f, at least for me. I'm too green to fully trust my tastebuds and I get nervous that I will screw it up. The advise to make a smaller blend of the cuts that I think should be in the final product is the best advise I've gotten. It gives me a way of tasting the final product of the blend without spoiling it all with one bad decision.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

+1
Of all the things on my still, the two thermometers are the most useless. I even rate a parrot higher than the thermometer, and a parrot is pretty useless, IMHO. I measure the alcohol level regularly during a stripping run and for every jar I fill in a spirit run. That and keeping an eye on the flow rate are the only gauges I need. The rest is smell and taste.

I personally like making cuts. It is not always easy but recipe creation and cuts are the two places you can really put your spin on the outcome. A good fermentation and actual distilling are mostly science, some biology, water chemistry and thermodynamics. Recipe development and cuts are my little chance at art.

Making cuts is fun but scary as f, at least for me. I'm too green to fully trust my tastebuds and I get nervous that I will screw it up. The advise to make a smaller blend of the cuts that I think should be in the final product is the best advise I've gotten. It gives me a way of tasting the final product of the blend without spoiling it all with one bad decision.

100%

[bilgriss]

I like to use a parrot on stripping runs, and use it as a guide as to when to stop stripping, usually when the abv drops below the initial ferment. That leaves me with low wines in the 30% range, more if I include feints from a previous run. It's a lazy way to do it, and as I've admitted before, I tend to gravitate towards simple solutions. But on a spirit run, it would just cause smearing and make cuts harder with a smaller hearts portion, so I go directly into small jars.

I've found a thermometer to be helpful for understanding and reinforcing the ideas and science behind distillation. Seeing the vapor temperature change at different points of a run is interesting, and it gives a visual corresponding to what I know is happening. So HAVING one is not, in my humble opinion, a bad idea. But as is pointed out over and over again, you cannot use it to run your still or make cuts. It won't tell you how something tastes or smells or when to change power levels. It's an output of the process, not an input. Informative, but not useful for making any decisions. I'd run exactly the same without it.

[howie]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

i beg to differ.
there is one situation, and the only time i use thermometers, is on a reflux run.
the top thermometer should stay at ambient temperature = i'm in full reflux and nothing is getting past the deflag.
the bottom thermometer records the very steady outside temp of the column, then after about 30-40 mins, there is a dip in temp of about 2°C
this indicates that the column is now balanced and the lower temp vapours have reached the top of the column.
then the water is adjusted down slowly to allow the top vapours through, indicated by the top thermometer changing from ambient.
using the theory that there is slight pressure in a balanced column.
then after i've got rid of all the crap at the top of the column, it's back to normal, and the thermometers ignored.

[NZChris]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

Pot still:
I use the temperature probe in the bottom of the boiler to tell me the ABV left in the charge. When doing multiple strips of the same wash, it is possible to automate the shutdown for the following strips using the temperature that I shut down the first strip at.

If you have a problem, that temperature will be out of sync with your expectations/calculations and could be the first sign that you have a pressure issue in the boiler and need to shut the power off immediately.

Reflux still:
The head temperature in my Bokakob tells me when tails hits the head and can reliably be used to trip the relay holding the power on the element and stop the tails reaching the collection jar.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Unless you have a computerized still with digital sensors, I can't see where a thermometer will give any useful data, other than when it's about to start dripping, that's if the thermometer is at the point of no return.

Pot still:
I use the temperature probe in the bottom of the boiler to tell me the ABV left in the charge. When doing multiple strips of the same wash, it is possible to automate the shutdown for the following strips using the temperature that I shut down the first strip at.

If you have a problem, that temperature will be out of sync with your expectations/calculations and could be the first sign that you have a pressure issue in the boiler and need to shut the power off immediately.

Reflux still:
The head temperature in my Bokakob tells me when tails hits the head and can reliably be used to trip the relay holding the power on the element and stop the tails reaching the collection jar.

So is this running the still by temperature?

[NZChris]

So is this running the still by temperature?

That would be a bit of a stretch. Running is done by controlling the output stream of both stills, plus watching the ABV in the receiver of the pot still and at the spout of the Bokakob.

[kiwi Bruce]

Craftdstllr as you gain more experience you'll gain more confidence and you'll lose the thermometer. You'll also taste the produce as it runs and guess at the strength against what you get on your hydrometer/refractometer and yes...you'll lose the hydrometer/refractometer as well. One day, and it might be many years from now and/or many hundreds of gallons of product, you'll find these things lost in a draw somewhere in your stilling shed and laugh your nuts off.

My cuts on the spirit run of a single malt do tend to be deep and a little "all over the place". On a Bourbon however I'll take the hearts cut late, there are fruity/grassy notes in the heads/early hearts that I don't like, that are not hidden under the oak flavor with aging. But I'll take all the tails of a Bourbon run as these develop nicely on the oak during aging.

[Craftdstllr]

Thanks for the feedback. To clarify, I use the thermometer in the column as a reference. I use the smell and abv (and occasional taste) in the 8oz jars for making decisions on the run. The Engineer part of me likes to track anything I can measure. It also helps keep me occupied during the run.
The reason for my post was to see if others were getting good flavor late in the run. For years, I woud stop collecting by the time the abv dropped to 60. The rest of the run would be considered feints. Now, I am finding desireable flavors in samples taken below 60%abv.

[subbrew]

It is run dependent, but on bourbon runs I often keep down to the mid 50s abv. I have only done a couple of apple brandies but those I stopped higher.

[8Ball]

…, but on bourbon runs I often keep down to the mid 50s abv. ...

+1
somewhere around 57-59% for me.

[subbrew]

just for some data points I grabbed my log. I do bigger batches, three strips and a spirit run, collect in 300 or 350 mil amounts in pint jars. Below are the first jar abv, top keeper and bottom keeper. a few runs were two strips, then low wines and some wash/mash for the spirit

Northern rum (mix of sorghum syrup and honey) - first: 78.7, top 1/2 of #3 @ 77, bottom #19 at 62.1 - smaller batch than more normal 35 gal but tails come early
Oat, barley, corn bourbon - first 75, top #8 @72%, bottom #31 @ 60
Sugarhead on bourbon spent grain and spent barley front a stout beer - first 75, top #8 @ 71, bottom #27 @ 60%
HBB sugar head - first 80.4, top #6 @ 76.2, bottom ##18 @67.5 (seems an anomaly, charge was 4.6 gal 34% low wine and 3 gal wash)
Apple brandy - First 77%, top #7 @ 74%, bottom #34 @61%
SBB rum - Start 80%, top #10 @77%, bottom #32 @66% (note, messed up molasses calc. Was a 12% wash, stripping runs ended at 37% even going down to 2% off the spout, this should be great after 8 years or so on wood)
rye, corn , barley bourbon - first 79%, top #8 @77%, bottom 38 @ 64%
HBB - first 79%, top #10 @ 75%, bottom #34 @ 59%
barley and corn bourbon - first 78%, top #14 @ 76%, bottom #44 @ 59%
sugar head from barley and corn - first 83%, top #17 @ 80%, bottom #43 @ 69% (narrow cuts as I want to drink this in a year)
corn barley wheat and Oats bourbon - first 79%, top #10 @ 76%, bottom ##30 @ 63%
corn, black and chocolate malt, rye, barley - first @80%, top #12 @ 76%, bottom #31 @56%
corn, barley, rye bourbon - first 82%, top #14 2 78%, bottom #32 @ 64%