Vodka Recipe for Refined Tastes

[Copper]

I finished a nice neutral spirit run (one plate, 36" copper mesh packed column, dephlegmator) and yielded many liters of 95% spirit. After a couple rounds of resting in free-air and ultrasound treatments, I diluted a sample of my favorite cut to 80 proof and poured into sampling glass alongside Ciroc Vodka (one of the only grape-based vodkas on the market). Blind taste tests at room temperature revealed 100% success of discerning homebrew vs. commercial. The homebrew was dry, thin, and pure ethanol taste. The Ciroc was deeper, thicker, smoother, and darker tasting, making it easy to discern. It is NOT just ethanol and water.

I figure Ciroc is using a thickening agent (gum arabic, mono and diglyceride, or glycerin) to improve mouthfeel and smoothness. Maybe a touch of sugar.

What is a good vodka recipe to improve neutral spirits?

[Ridgeback816]

My vodka recipe is
50lbs of white corn
50 lbs of long grain rice
20 lbs of oats
5 gallons of backset
50 gallons of water
Double distilled
Stripped on a 15 gallon pot with a 3 foot column 3 inch diameter with just the head packed with copper mesh collect until your down to 25 percent off the spout total abv 55 percent ( this is key watering back down to 35 percent)
15 gallon pot finished 3 foot 3 inch column 12 inch tall 3 inch sight glass dephlag packed with lava rock (still with copper mesh in the head another 9 inches in hight) distill to 96 abv 1 or 2 points does make a huge difference

Make good cut this was the hard part for me I took 500 ml cuts made each one a full 50 abv so I could taste and learn I usually finish my about 47 abv

Let it sit for a week and blend

Oats are rice will make your spirit THICK! I will warn you my wife's friends are always over the house now so take the good with the bad

[Copper]

Ridgeback, that's a great looking recipe. I'm guessing the end product is excellent.

For my work with "aggressively neutral" spirits, I prepared several 200mL batches by watering down (using reverse osmosis water) the neutral spirits to 40% ABV. The tests were gum arabic, mono- and di-glyceride, and glycerin.

Glycerin - about 4 drops into 200mL
Gun Arabic - a little scoop using a chemist's spatula
mono-di-glycerides - just a few flakes. Very hard to dissolve.

I used a heated stir plate and ultrasonic bath to prepare the samples. All samples failed the taste test. They were too "lively" and too much "burn". I poured the samples together in a "discard beaker".

My next test was to prepare more 200mL batches with a pinch of sugar and with pinch of citric acid. Both samples failed the taste test. I poured the remaining samples into the "discard beaker".

Then I tasted the "discard beaker". HOLY SMOKES! Nobody could taste the difference between the Ciroc and the homemade. I let it sit overnight and the next day, it mellowed way too much. The alcohol "burn" is gone. It went from too lively to dead-on-arrival. Some people might prefer this. My experiment showed that a bit of thickener agent, citric acid, and sugar mellows neutral spirit to match commercial top-shelf vodka.

I'll keep testing and post results. My next steps will be to use mineral water instead of RO or add trace minerals.

[shadylane]

I finished a nice neutral spirit run (one plate, 36" copper mesh packed column, dephlegmator) and yielded many liters of 95% spirit.

What design and diameter of plate?

[greggn]

The homebrew was dry, thin, and pure ethanol taste.

I'll guess that your neutral began life as a sugar wash. That would be a good reason for you to consider it to be "thin." If you're capable, try an all-grain instead. I prefer soft white wheat but, in the past, I've used virtually every grain available in my region.

Depending on your distilling protocol and cuts, AG will provide both mouthfeel and taste without having to rely on additives.

[Tammuz]

Since it is made from grapes you might look up A. Bishops base for brandies made with raisins. Jesse played with it on his channel.

[squigglefunk]

I'm just gunna throw carbon filtering out there, it seems frowned upon here but it's a common practice by many commercial distillers (google tells me Ciroc does) and can really smooth out the mouth feel and clean up the taste.

Google also tells me Ciroc distills 5 times

Cîroc is five times distilled using specially selected French grapes. These grapes are made into a wine which is initially distilled four times in column stills.

It’s the fifth distillation where Cîroc is truly created. This takes place in a traditional, tailor-made copper pot still at the historic Distillerie de Chevanceaux in the South of France.

WHAT MAKES CÎROC DIFFERENT TO OTHER VODKAS?
There are three main differences. Firstly, we start with grapes, not grain. Secondly, we use craft skills handed down from the great distilling regions of Cognac and Armagnac. And finally, we use specially developed stills that slowly drip our liquids through copper to reveal a soft, smooth texture and a slightly citrus note.,

[Saltbush Bill]

Sounds like a whole heap of marketing hype to me.
5 times distilled? does that mean 5 times through a pot?
5 times through a packed reflux column ? or once through a 5 plate column?
Specialy developed stills? What exactly does that mean?

[shadylane]

What is a good vodka recipe to improve neutral spirits?

Comparing vodka to neutral spirits is like comparing apples to oranges.
The recipes and distillation are different.
It sounds like you want something almost neutral but with mouth feel and a hint of vodka character.

Here's what I'm thinking.
Your experiment showed that a bit of thickener agent, citric acid, and sugar mellows neutral spirit.
Is correct, but the character doesn't last. It's kinda like a flavored vodka that needs to be consumed because it isn't going to get better with age.

[Copper]

Comparing vodka to neutral spirits is like comparing apples to oranges.

Yea, I'm not a vodka guy at all. Kindof a newbie when it comes to vodka. But I just ran this whole jug of aggressively neutral spirits and thought, "oh I can make vodka".

the character doesn't last. It's kinda like a flavored vodka that needs to be consumed because it isn't going to get better with age.

I've been experimenting. I felt my version was lacking minerals. I tried diluting the neutral with Sanpellegrino, but it was a mess. Turns out the gypsum (calcium sulfate) is not soluble in 40% ABV and Sanpellegrino contains a lot of gypsum. I found the laboratory analysis of Sanpellegrino and mixed my own (I like my DIY better than store-bought now). So I made a Vodka with the recipe but without the gypsum. It was salty and not vodka. This is where I made a new discovery: vodka should be slightly acidic whereas Sanpellegrino contains sodium bicarbonate. I measured the Ciroc at 5.75 pH. Interestingly enough, Sanpellegrino measured nearly the same pH. The carbonation must be making it acidic.

So my recipe is glycerol, gum arabic, citric acid, magnesium sulfate, and an ultrasonic treatment in a 40C water bath. No sugar. I brought a bottle over to a buddy who is a vodka connoisseur. He was able to pick out Tito's but got stumped between the Ciroc and homemade. He got the Grey Goose correctly once or twice. My homemade matches Ciroc very closely and not too far off from Grey Goose. I'm confident it would be pretty easy to tweak the recipe, though.

How long will it last? What is the shelf life? That's a new question I haven't considered. I'll mix up a bottle and put it on the back shelf. Seems like my ingredient list should be stable in 40% ABV solution. The most likely causation would be phase separation of the gum arabic especially in the presence of magnesium ions. We'll see.

[Thumperbunny]

Throw some wheetbix in your sugar wash eh cuz and that might help.

[elriba]

Hi Copper,
Thanks for posting this. It has been a very interesting and funny account of your findings...

I have curiosity about the ultrasonic treatments. What effect does that have on neutral spirits? Where can I find more about how this is done?

Thanks again.

[Copper]

Today is April 21, about 6 months after my initial November post. I was accused by @shandylane of making a "flavored vodka ... that it isn't going to get better with age".

Today, I opened my November bottle. Let's see if it gets "better with age". I can today declare, with a tasting party of non-brewer ordinary friends, that shandylane's hypothesis is defeated. We compared with blind tasting (I put a strip of tape underneath the tasting glasses unseen by the tasting panel) that the November bottling of my "flavored vodka" was rated favorably compared to Tito's, Grey Goose, and Ciroc. It was rated as having better body and fullness than the competitors with less "throat burn".

I have learned that Vokda is judged (at least by my audience) by pH, mineral content, and mouthfeel. With proper judgement, those things can be constructed that age well instead of fading quickly with age.

[shadylane]

Today is April 21, about 6 months after my initial November post. I was accused by @shandylane of making a "flavored vodka ... that it isn't going to get better with age".

Not accusing you, just pointing out your making flavored vodka out of neutral spirits.
As to the aging, alcohol always gets better with time. But additives sometimes don't.
Glycerin adds mouth feel and coats the tongue to protect it, but I don't use it very often because it seems like cheating and makes a hydrometer lie and messes up a shake test.

[Saltbush Bill]

It’s the fifth distillation where Cîroc is truly created. This takes place in a traditional, tailor-made copper pot still at the historic Distillerie de Chevanceaux in the South of France.

The more that I read through this marketing hype the more rats I smell.
If this one distillation through the special pot still is responsible for Cirocs uniqueness, then where , and who is doing the other 4 " distillations" and with what still or stills.
Note also that the wording also mentions that the last distillation is done at " the historic Distillerie de Chevanceaux in the South of France."......where are the first 4 done?
There is so much bullshit in some of this marketing hype that it's not funny.
Earlier in this post I asked some similar questions.....no answers as of yet.

[howie]

It’s the fifth distillation where Cîroc is truly created. This takes place in a traditional, tailor-made copper pot still at the historic Distillerie de Chevanceaux in the South of France.

The more that I read through this marketing hype the more rats I smell.
If this one distillation through the special pot still is responsible for Cirocs uniqueness, then where , and who is doing the other 4 " distillations" and with what still or stills.
Note also that the wording also mentions that the last distillation is done at " the historic Distillerie de Chevanceaux in the South of France."......where are the first 4 done?
There is so much bullshit in some of this marketing hype that it's not funny.
Earlier in this post I asked some similar questions.....no answers as of yet.

this from the Diffords website might have the answer, it won't let me copy & paste , so you'll have to have a look.......
https://www.diffordsguide.com/en-au/bee ... -floraison
looks like they may have 4 x infusion distillations, then blending the results for one last distillation?

[Saltbush Bill]

I might have missed something here, I thought this thread and the posts so far were related to Vodka only.

[NZChris]

Maybe it depends on the definition of vodka that you're using? My nicest Vodka more closely resembles gin than vodka.viewtopic.php?t=92136

[tommysb]

https://www.diffordsguide.com/en-au/pro ... illery-ewg some more evidence and useful information about ciroc, down to where the various distillations take place

[Saltbush Bill]

Thanks Tommy, that clarifies some of the process.

[tommysb]

My summary of the Ciroc process according to the link above, with some of my own thoughts/notes -

They buy in NGS/ Neutral (96.3%) made from grapes.

They ferment their own grapes, distill their own grape neutral, up to 94% through their own 15Metre column.

The 96% and 94% are blended together, and (presumably!) diluted. The ratio of this blend changes year or year (apparently) to keep taste consistent. I GUESS that the in-house produced 94% ratio is fairly small compared to the other.

This blend is then pot stilled in copper pots, and diluted to bottling strength.

[greggn]

My summary of the Ciroc process according to the link above, with some of my own thoughts/notes -

They buy in NGS/ Neutral (96.3%) made from grapes.

They ferment their own grapes, distill their own grape neutral, up to 94% through their own 15Metre column.

The 96% and 94% are blended together, and (presumably!) diluted. The ratio of this blend changes year or year (apparently) to keep taste consistent. I GUESS that the in-house produced 94% ratio is fairly small compared to the other.

This blend is then pot stilled in copper pots, and diluted to bottling strength.

As I recall, this is essentially the same process used to make Ketel One vodka.

They purchase wheat-based low wines to run through their centuries old "Ketel #1" pot still and blend some portion of that output with purchased NGS. What the ratio is of pot stilled product with NGS I never learned but, while I'll bet it's small, it supports their marketing hype.

[Saltbush Bill]

That was my point, mostly marketing hype, the vast majority of product is bought in from out side sources, and then blended with just enough of the special potstilled stuff done in house to call it their own.
Seems to me most of the big vodka producers buy most of their product in.
It's all in the wording and marketing hype in the end.

[howie]

That was my point, mostly marketing hype, the vast majority of product is bought in from out side sources, and then blended with just enough of the special potstilled stuff done in house to call it their own.
Seems to me most of the big vodka producers buy most of their product in.
It's all in the wording and marketing hype in the end.

grey goose success story?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHi2YnLNwI

[Bushman]

Great video, I see marketing gimmicks all the time in the distilling industry.

[Twisted Brick]

Great video, I see marketing gimmicks all the time in the distilling industry.

With such a limited flavor profile to distinguish each distiller's 'unique' vodka, marketing is everything.

I read this searching for tips on what makes for a refined vodka and it was all marketing.

[greggn]

I read this searching for tips on what makes for a refined vodka and it was all marketing.

As a long time vodka drinker, I found that book fascinating.

Something I learned from it that I had never considered before was just how much "design" goes into the bottle. Consumers loved the Crystal Head Vodka's skull shaped bottle but bartenders absolutely hate it. Why ? It's hard for them to grab and pick up.

[Saltbush Bill]

There are only so many ways that you can make something that tastes like nothing much and still sell it successfully.
Without the marketing hype it would be a hard sell.
Gotta love the smaller print on your book cover Twisted.

[Twisted Brick]

There are only so many ways that you can make something that tastes like nothing much and still sell it successfully.
Without the marketing hype it would be a hard sell.
Gotta love the smaller print on your book cover Twisted.

For sure, Bill and it took me a while to decipher the basis behind that smaller print. At least here in SoCal, drinkers' libations are conspicuously visible. Its damn near impossible to differentiate a superior vodka profile, so the ad guys sell either lifestyle or boobs (or both). I still find it interesting that the test market that launched a good portion of the recognizable national brands listed in the book was San Francisco.