Actions to avoid scorching when distilling rye

[PalCabral]

Distillers!

A couple of weeks ago I scorched my boiler's internal heating element when I was stripping the first batch of a high rye formula Bourbon. After some days of trouble-shooting, the reason clearly points to rye protein being the culprit. The recipe contains +30% rye malt and there's about 10% wheat malt in the mix as well, so plenty of proteins in play in this mash. As I follow a classic step-mashing approach using flaked corn and only malts, i.e. no boiling or gelatinization is taking place, and I ferment off grain, solids are the not the issue in this case. Nor have I had problems with stuck sparges or overly viscous mashes/washes.

I've put together a number of mitigating actions that one can take in order to avoid this problem repeating itself. I would like your feedback on those, if you think they will have any effects or not, and if there are other mitigating steps that can be taken. Buying/Building new distilling equipment, however, is not really on the table.

Mashing:
- Lower target SG: 1.050-1.065, instead of 1.070-1.080
- 30 minutes beta-glucanase rest at 43C/109F
- 15 minutes protein rest at 50C/122F
- 30 minutes vigorous boiling after saccharification rest 67C/152F to create Hot Break to coagulate proteins and polyphenols
- Application of Irish Moss or Protafloc in the above boil to aid hot break

Enzymes:
Here I could need some help. Alpha amylase, beta-glucanase and glucoamylase are in my understanding mainly helpful to increase conversion of starch to sugar and to improve liquification of the mash, I am not sure if they have any major impact on breaking down proteins in it. Protease is the enzyme that breaks down proteins but there are not that many products available for hobby brewers/distillers. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Fermentation:
- After completed fermentation, wash is cold-crashed followed by clarification by application of Isinglass or other fining agent
- Careful racking of wash to boiler as to not bring any of the bottom sludge over from the fermenter

Stripping run distillation:
- Start heat up immediately after filling boiler as to not allow any settlement at the bottom of the boiler
- Heat up slowly, 30%-60% of element capacity (1300w-1700w in my case) and run at max 75% capacity during stripping run
- Agitate wash during heat up as long as it is possible
- Use the higher of two element ports in boiler (in my case the lower element is 2 inches from the bottom, the higher element is 4 inches from the bottom) - not sure if this will make difference.
- Add boiling stones/shards to bottom of the boiler - not sure if this at all makes sense since I use an internal element.

As I said, appreciate your comments and thoughts.

[Homebrewer11777]

Sounds ok to me.

You may not actually need enzymes but I would add some form of beta glucoamylase after the boil when you are chilling the wort. After boiling chill you wort to about 135-140F (57-60C) and add the enzyme. Let it cool naturally from there for about an hour and then finish chilling to pitching temperature.

Don't forget to oxygenate this wort just like if you were making beer.

I like the irish moss idea since you are planning to boil. May want to check pH of the boil to make sure it is in range of 5.0 to 5.2 or maybe 5.3. Below 5 is really not good for coagulation of the proteins you are trying to achieve.

You did not mention yeast choice. Maybe something that flocs well.

I'd pass on Isinglass or other post fermentation clarifying agents but would cold crash it.

I think once you have a boil and you are past the puking stage (not long since you boiled pre-fermentation) you should have enough movement in the boiler to not have to worry about the element anymore. Go ahead and go fast.

Oh also make sure to take a look at the element before the batch. Mine tend to build up a bit of film over a few batches and that may make them sticky. Give it a good clean before the batch.

[PalCabral]

Sounds ok to me.

You may not actually need enzymes but I would add some form of beta glucoamylase after the boil when you are chilling the wort. After boiling chill you wort to about 135-140F (57-60C) and add the enzyme. Let it cool naturally from there for about an hour and then finish chilling to pitching temperature.

Don't forget to oxygenate this wort just like if you were making beer.

I like the irish moss idea since you are planning to boil. May want to check pH of the boil to make sure it is in range of 5.0 to 5.2 or maybe 5.3. Below 5 is really not good for coagulation of the proteins you are trying to achieve.

You did not mention yeast choice. Maybe something that flocs well.

I'd pass on Isinglass or other post fermentation clarifying agents but would cold crash it.

I think once you have a boil and you are past the puking stage (not long since you boiled pre-fermentation) you should have enough movement in the boiler to not have to worry about the element anymore. Go ahead and go fast.

Oh also make sure to take a look at the element before the batch. Mine tend to build up a bit of film over a few batches and that may make them sticky. Give it a good clean before the batch.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. Do you have a suggestion for the beta-glucoamylase? I am using Still Spirits glucoamylase today but I take it you think it should be a mix of glucoamylase and beta-amylase?

I usually cold crash and use finings for some of the beers I've made, was thinking of the same this time. The yeast I am using is Fermentis USW-6 - not really a high flocculant yeast, distiller's yeasts rarely are. I'll give this one a thought. I could change for Voss kveik, which is reliable and highly floccing. Good point, didn't think of that.

I have just finished cleaning the old element, it was an ordeal. I doubt it will ever be as clean as this. But I never thought about the element getting coated with stuff. After each run I flush it clean and every so often I'll give it a brush too. From the brewing days I am something of a nut when it comes to clean my equipment. Dont want no weird bacteria in my brewery Thanks!

[Homebrewer11777]

actually I think I use glucoamylase too. The product I use is "GLUCOAMYLASE AMYLASE ENZYME DIAZYME X4 AGGRESSIVE LIQUID" from Amazon. It is also labeled "Glucan 1,4-α-glucosidase" on the bottle.

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

I don't really think a little bit of yeast in suspension is what burned on your burner. It was slime from the rye. I think a good cold crash should be fine for settling out that whiskey yeast although I'm currently using S04 which I've always found to be super flocculant.

[higgins]

I'm having trouble understanding why your 30% malted rye scorched, but my 100% flaked unmalted rye did not.

I have a 15.5 keg with a 5500W element that is bent into a circle about 1" from the outer edge of the keg. I need 2.75 gallons to cover it.
I always use about 15-20 pieces of 1/2" D x 1 1/2" L copper pipe in the boiler, and I can hear them dancing around when boiling. I usually heat up at full power to about 160F / 71C before tapering down to about 15-10% thru the foaming stage, then back up to 100% in 10-15% increments as foaming recedes.

But I did use YLAY.

[PalCabral]

actually I think I use glucoamylase too. The product I use is "GLUCOAMYLASE AMYLASE ENZYME DIAZYME X4 AGGRESSIVE LIQUID" from Amazon. It is also labeled "Glucan 1,4-α-glucosidase" on the bottle.

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

Thanks, HB! I will test this product.

[PalCabral]

I'm having trouble understanding why your 30% malted rye scorched, but my 100% flaked unmalted rye did not.

I have a 15.5 keg with a 5500W element that is bent into a circle about 1" from the outer edge of the keg. I need 2.75 gallons to cover it.
I always use about 15-20 pieces of 1/2" D x 1 1/2" L copper pipe in the boiler, and I can hear them dancing around when boiling. I usually heat up at full power to about 160F / 71C before tapering down to about 15-10% thru the foaming stage, then back up to 100% in 10-15% increments as foaming recedes.

But I did use YLAY.

Yes, I agree it is strange. The difference could be what your copper scrap do. My element is straight and was scorched the most in the part to the center of the boiler, wheras the part nearest the side and port was hardly scorched at all, indicating that the scorching started in the middle. My 13g boiler is 13 inches wide, your 15.5g boiler couldnt really be much wider, could it?

The existence of proteins in the wash is down to raw material and process. You use flakes, I am using malt. Even though YLAY does not seem to have protease in it’s cocktail it is possible it has a positive effect breaking proteins down? Beta-glucanase in YL may be the differenting factor in this aspect. My beta-glucanase rest before was only 15 minutes, perhaps not long enough?

[PalCabral]

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

”The β-amylase breaks off shorter chains of sugars to increase fermentation yield. β-glucanase: Glucans are polysaccharides made of glucose and this enzyme focuses specifically on breaking down the links between these molecules with the addition of water”.

It’s confusing. I realized I called it beta-amylase in my original post when I meant to call it beta-glucanase.

[PalCabral]

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

”The β-amylase breaks off shorter chains of sugars to increase fermentation yield. β-glucanase: Glucans are polysaccharides made of glucose and this enzyme focuses specifically on breaking down the links between these molecules with the addition of water”.

It’s confusing. I realized I called it beta-amylase in my original post when I meant to call it beta-glucanase. Beta amylase and glucoamylase is as far as I understand the same thing. Beta-glucanase is not.

[higgins]

Here is my DENORD 5500 ULWD element that I bent into a semi-circle.
CAUTION: I've read that some elements have glass in them and bending them might render them useless.



I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

[jonnys_spirit]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

[PalCabral]

Here is my DENORD 5500 ULWD element that I bent into a semi-circle.
CAUTION: I've read that some elements have glass in them and bending them might render them useless.

I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

I know the type. How dis you manage to bend it? You applied heat or did you jump into a phone booth and switch to your Superman suit? Love it!

[PalCabral]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

Not really faniliar with Koji. I know it’s used when brewing Sake and I’ve seen sachets of it in my LHBS, expensive sachets. Do you use it for Sake or completely other beverages, Jonny?

[higgins]

...
I know the type. How dis you manage to bend it? You applied heat or did you jump into a phone booth and switch to your Superman suit? Love it!

No heat. They are rather soft - I just bent it with my hands on a bench top. It does take some force, but I bent the foldback out, then for each outside curve place down on the edge of the bench top like this: U, but shallower. Grab the straight parts of the U and spread apart and push down to straighten it out. Repeat for all the curved parts. You can see it is nowhere near perfect, but it works well.

[shadylane]

- Use the higher of two element ports in boiler (in my case the lower element is 2 inches from the bottom, the higher element is 4 inches from the bottom) - not sure if this will make difference.

Maybe use both elements and split the power between them.
This would cut the watt density of the heaters in half and lower the odds of a scorch.

[jonnys_spirit]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

Not really faniliar with Koji. I know it’s used when brewing Sake and I’ve seen sachets of it in my LHBS, expensive sachets. Do you use it for Sake or completely other beverages, Jonny?

Koji is a cultivated mold which contains enzymes (protease and amylase) - similar to the active ingredient (also a fungus) in YLAY which is called rhizopus oryzae.

Koji can be used to convert starches into sugars (eg; rice -> sake) just like YLAY as well as in protein based ferments (eg; miso or shoyu) where proteins are broken down into simpler aminos.

I’m suggesting that perhaps YLAY does contain some protease which may account for the observed behavior earlier in the thread when stripping rye fermented with YLAY but would need further research to confirm.

Cheers,
-jonny

[PalCabral]

I’m suggesting that perhaps YLAY does contain some protease which may account for the observed behavior earlier in the thread when stripping rye fermented with YLAY but would need further research to confirm.

Yes, this could well explain that YLAY mashed/fermented don't seem to have the protein issue. I was planning to use my brick of YLAY this summer, for making Rye Whiskey no less. I'll see then if YLAY provides some scorching prevention activity.

[Powder Monkey]

Been there before. Apart from mash process changes similar to to what you mentioned some simple and partially effective things I found were keeping my still head off and using a drill/paint stirer frequently during heat up and right until just before boil. Heat up one element only. I would then switch to the second one for the run. I know you said new build wasn’t an option but…oak stills offers a 2” triclamp agitator for $400. Game changer for me, others have built them. Save up to build a steam rig…

[jonnys_spirit]

I’m suggesting that perhaps YLAY does contain some protease which may account for the observed behavior earlier in the thread when stripping rye fermented with YLAY but would need further research to confirm.

Yes, this could well explain that YLAY mashed/fermented don't seem to have the protein issue. I was planning to use my brick of YLAY this summer, for making Rye Whiskey no less. I'll see then if YLAY provides some scorching prevention activity.

I don’t know whether this is definitive but I emailed Angel Yeast about the potential for the presence of protease in YLAY and this was their response:

After checking with our R&D, they told me that although we don't add any protease enzymes directly in the yellow label, the Rhizopus in it can produce various enzymes which including protease enzymes.

Cheers,
Jonny