Corn AG Turned Out BADDDD!

[The Booze Pipe]

I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but I out of all the different all grains mashes i have made people like straight corn the least. I guess there is a reason bourbon only has to be 51% corn.

I would agree that corn whiskey aged on oak is not the most exciting. But left white I find it to be excellent, along with others I have shared with. Especially the ones from Appalachia!

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

I'm about to try this again, but as a side note I thought I might add my observations on the two corn brands I've used so far. The first round was TSC cracked corn, $14/50#. This round, I was at the local feed store and bought Nutrena cracked corn. It was handy and I thought I'd support a local business rather than a chain, it was even a dollar cheaper than the TSC corn. We gathered up my wife's garden plants and my sack of corn and went our merry way. I was assuming they would be comparable, well they're not.

I spent all evening yesterday grinding up the Nutrena. The TSC corn was MUCH cleaner, almost no cob and sticks, not so with the Nutrena. Not only lots of it, but big pieces of sticks, cob and corn stalk. I found traces of wheat, some sort of peas and lots of random grass seeds too. The TSC corn was also much fresher smelling, the Nutrena didn't smell sour or bad, just not as fresh. I even found 6 or 8 pebbles in the bottom of the bag.

I picked out most of the larger pieces as I was feeding it to the grinder, it made it a very tedious process. I think I got most of it, but I'm prepared to skim anything that floats when we do the steep. This is probably my last feed corn run, I was just using it as a learning tool, and I'll be moving to course ground cornmeal for anything I add corn to in the future.

Just thought I'd post up my impressions of the two brands.

Rusty

[fiery creations]

I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but I out of all the different all grains mashes i have made people like straight corn the least. I guess there is a reason bourbon only has to be 51% corn.

I would agree that corn whiskey aged on oak is not the most exciting. But left white I find it to be excellent, along with others I have shared with. Especially the ones from Appalachia!

I’m surprised you guys feel this way. My wall corn is my favorite, more interesting thing I’ve made.

I wonder how much the type of corn matters. My ferments leave me with a ton of amazing smelling oils on top. My final product reminds me of something you’d get at a carnival as a treat.


I’ve been thinking about doing a run with TSC corn to see if it’s not as good as my locally sourced cracked corn.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

I’ve been thinking about doing a run with TSC corn to see if it’s not as good as my locally sourced cracked corn.

I don't know what you get for your locally sourced stuff, but it's head and shoulders above Nutrena in my opinion. I thought since Nutrena was a national brand it would be good stuff, not the case.

Rusty

[Corn Cracker]

That nutrena sounds like the cracked corn Walmart sells, family farms or something, horrible stuff

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

That nutrena sounds like the cracked corn Walmart sells, family farms or something, horrible stuff

Thanks for the tip Corn Cracker, I was really disappointed with the Nutrena. I don't think I would have been happy with it if I were feeding it to the chickens, it was that bad. With the TSC corn it took us about an hour to grind it all, I spent almost 3 hours the other night cleaning each scoop before I ground it.

I want to do something with all corn for sure, I could smell how good it could be under the funk I smeared it with, it was kinda like cornflakes (with nail polish remover poured over it ). If I can improve my all grain technique with this run, I'm probably going to try an all corn with course ground cornmeal later this summer. Webstaurant has 50lbs for $20, or Azure Standard has 25lbs for $20, both work out about the same once you figure in shipping.

I don't mind using feed grade ingredients for learning materials, but this run is about it. I made up my mind last fall when I was deciding on food or feed molasses for my first rum batch that since this is hobby scale and I'm not looking to really save money with this endeavor, I'd use food grade stuff as much as possible and make the best product I possibly could. This in fact is the least expensive of my hobbies and the only one that produces anything but joy. There are RCs & Harleys are in the shed next to my kegs, lots of fun, but I've never gotten liquor out of either.

Rusty

[Corn Cracker]

I did the same with that Walmart stuff, like sorting beans. I've got a grain mill/feed manufacturer the next town over, Evans farms, I'm going in there today for corn. I'm hoping for steam crimped corn, that takes the first rest out of the mash cooking process.
The first run I made was 100% corn, ground corn, malted corn and corn sugar, it was expensive in comparison but the taste was frosted flakes with ever clear instead of milk

[higgins]

Shipping on the Webstaurant 50 lb bag is almost $30. Shipping from AZ STD on a 100 lb order is about $9.00, so if I order more than just a bag of cornmeal then AZ STD is definitely a better deal for me, even tho I have to drive 20 minutes to the drop location to meet the truck. I typically buy 100+ lbs on every order from them - red/white wheat, rolled oats, cornmeal, rye (flaked or grain).

Here is their map of drop locations. Seems like almost everyone is within an hour of a drop unless you're in BF, Nevada (no offense meant to Nevadans - is that the right word?).

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

I did the same with that Walmart stuff, like sorting beans. I've got a grain mill/feed manufacturer the next town over, Evans farms, I'm going in there today for corn. I'm hoping for steam crimped corn, that takes the first rest out of the mash cooking process.
The first run I made was 100% corn, ground corn, malted corn and corn sugar, it was expensive in comparison but the taste was frosted flakes with ever clear instead of milk

Man, that's nice to have a grain mill that close. I'm sure I could find some if I head north, around here, sugar cane is the main crop. Well, that and they turned all the soybean fields into crawfish farms, but I'm not sure I'd like a crawfish ferment.

I like the sounds of that all corn recipe, I might have to try that one.

Rusty

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Shipping on the Webstaurant 50 lb bag is almost $30. Shipping from AZ STD on a 100 lb order is about $9.00, so if I order more than just a bag of cornmeal then AZ STD is definitely a better deal for me, even tho I have to drive 20 minutes to the drop location to meet the truck. I typically buy 100+ lbs on every order from them - red/white wheat, rolled oats, cornmeal, rye (flaked or grain).

Here is their map of drop locations. Seems like almost everyone is within an hour of a drop unless you're in BF, Nevada (no offense meant to Nevadans - is that the right word?).

That's probably the way I'll go Higgins. Once I get the technique down I'm going to want to have a larger mashes than just 25 gallons so I'll be buying larger quantities of grain. My very first Azure Standard order will be here Monday, my drop is actually close. I chose one that was about 10 minutes from my work. I also have one where I live, but that's 40 miles from work so I picked the one I was closer to during the day.

Rusty

[Corn Cracker]

Rusty, from the sound of it, your my eastern neighbor

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Rusty, from the sound of it, your my eastern neighbor

Yep, Evans Farm is just west of here so if you're the next town over from them, we're definitely neighbors!

Rusty

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Morning Fellas, just thought I'd give a little update on the all corn endeavor. We followed the original mashing sequence again and let it ferment to dry. We ran the first stripping run of two on Saturday. We took all the advice given here and it's turning out much better, down around 80 proof, it tasted like corn flakes. We didn't get a lot before it ran out, we're probably only at about 8% based on volume calculations. We didn't check the initial gravity, Worm Bucket forgot that step, but did great otherwise on his first mash in. I was there but had other obligations, so he had the lead on this ferment and the run. We did check the finishing gravity and they had both gotten to 1.000, using a temp correction. He's got the 2nd strip planned for tomorrow night. The run started just above 100 proof and slowly dropped throughout the run, no sign of the ethyl acetate this time past the first 1/2 pint or so. We stopped pulling at 0 proof corrected for temperature.

So in a nut shell, we ditched the thumper for this round, we pitched the entire first pint, and we ran it much slower. We also have discovered something about the little EBII still, I think something I did to the still might be making it smear even more. The collection spout has a second outlet that points upward. I had been using a copper cap I had made for it just to shut it off, but while we were rinsing it after the run we noticed something. With it in place it made the water we were rinsing with gurgle and bubble through the collection tip and not flow smoothly. I know it's a much different volume of liquid to move through there, but I can't help but think it might have been adding to the smear. We're running tomorrow night without the little cap in place and see what happens.

Rusty

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

I thought I might throw up one last update on this one. We had a successful spirit run over the weekend. It has been a tremendous learning tool and even less expensive than a sugar wash. That said, this is my last feed corn and probably my last all corn run. I don't like the taste of the corn at all, it's not a bad or off taste, I just don't like it. It tasted like I was doing an Everclear shot to chase down a mouth full of dried corn. It started off at 170 and we pulled to about 50 proof before it started to get nasty. We were tasting the 100 proof jar straight off the shotgun and didn't mix any of the other with water to taste. It was nice and smooth, no "bite", but just not my cup of tea.

I think we're going to blend it down to 80 proof and put half on barrel staves and half on pecan and see how it ages. I'm not knocking the guys that like it, it's the same as me liking fried okra and you really don't, it's just a matter of taste. I think I'm ready to start looking at some more "exotic" ingredients to play with for taste. It's easy to bring taste across with a pot still, that's what I was looking for, so I'm going to start working with some of our favorite grains and ingredients.

Rusty

[NZChris]

The problem may be the variety of corn. I bought some from a local grower and it had a bit of a poo smell. The product had the same smell, it couldn't be cut out as it came across right through the run. I've never used his corn again. Corn, grains, molasses, milk, whatever, if I don't like the taste or smell, I don't buy it.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Some people love the taste of corn likker, but some peopile can't handle it. To me it's ok. It has an earthy dusty flavor, even more so if you malt your own corn and ferment it green without drying it before grinding. I can't stand gin. I like a good barley likker but not if the barley has been peet smoked. I'll let the Leprechauns have all the peet smoked!

[shadylane]

Corn AG Turned Out BADDDD!

It ain't bad if it finished @ 1.000 are Ya looking for a pat on the head.
I don't like the flavor of new make corn liquor either.
Depending on the still head used, give it several months and the wang will moderate.
Given more time and it will become almost neutral with a hint of dirty corn.
Keep in mind the difference cuts can make when consumed early and white or aged a long time.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

The problem may be the variety of corn. I bought some from a local grower and it had a bit of a poo smell. The product had the same smell, it couldn't be cut out as it came across right through the run. I've never used his corn again. Corn, grains, molasses, milk, whatever, if I don't like the taste or smell, I don't buy it.

I'm not sure of the variety, but it wasn't the freshest when I opened the bag. No bad smells, just not fresh corn. I'm definitely not buying any more Nutrena cracked corn, if I ever do use feed corn again (probably not) I'll go back to the TSC cracked corn in the yellow bag. It was very clean and smelled fresh.

Some people love the taste of corn likker, but some peopile can't handle it. To me it's ok. It has an earthy dusty flavor, even more so if you malt your own corn and ferment it green without drying it before grinding. I can't stand gin. I like a good barley likker but not if the barley has been peet smoked. I'll let the Leprechauns have all the peet smoked!

This, from the go, was a noobie AG learning experiment, it was the absolute cheapest way to go with an all grain in case I screwed up. Guess what, I screwed the first one up, It was just $20 down the drain, it's actually not going down the drain, I'm using it for the sacraficial run on my new Horny Goat rebuild in a week or so. I might try cornmeal at some point, I'm sure it's a much better taste.

I don't like gin or peated scotch either, I'm a bourbon guy for the most part when it comes to whiskey. My first real batch of anything other than a white sugar wash (SSS) was Dougmatt's panela/molasses rum and I'm spoiled. I love that stuff more than any hard anything I've ever had. We have ingredients on hand for a big batch this summer. I have another all grain recipe in mind, but I'm going to see how it comes out first before I post much about it, it's something my wife found and she has been so incredibly supportive with my new endeavor that I promised her we would try it.

Corn AG Turned Out BADDDD!

It ain't bad if it finished @ 1.000 are Ya looking for a pat on the head.
I don't like the flavor of new make corn liquor either.
Depending on the still head used, give it several months and the wang will moderate.
Given more time and it will become almost neutral with a hint of dirty corn.
Keep in mind the difference cuts can make when consumed early and white or aged a long time.

Well Shady, any pat on the head would go to my son, Worm Bucket. He did all the work on this one based on my notes from the first run and the advice I got from y'all. He worked hard on the conversion and I think it payed off.

I used the EBII set up with no thumper. We have 12" section of 2" copper for a riser and the sight glass packed with copper mesh in the vapor path, the rest is stainless. I'm going to let it air out for a week before we try the cuts. We caught in 1/2 pint increments so we could be as precise as possible with what we have, then after cuts it's going on the shelf with some wood in it for a while to see what happens. I'm hoping it makes it much better, I love bourbon.

Rusty

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Well, I might have changed my mind about all corn after this stuff sat on wood for a month. I was ready to use it for anything but drinking and Worm decided we should toast up a little wood and see what happens before we used it for cleaning parts. Much to my surprise, it's improved more than I ever thought it could!

We proofed everything to 100, added a charred barrel stave piece to a 1/2 gallon, a toasted cherry finger to a quart and a toasted pecan finger to a quart (we also left a pint white as a control). The barrel stave and the cherry are good, but man, I'd fight you for the pecan. Slightly smokey, sorta nutty and it finishes with a vanilla note. It's really good, I feel like I NEED to make more. I had to watch one of my buddy's over the weekend, the bastard tried to sneak it into his car.

I've pulled the wood out of all of them, Worm might have had the wood to alcohol ratio on the high side, but it sorta rapid aged the stuff it seems. The cherry came out to a really cool red color, I named it "John Redcorn". I'll post up some pics once that's all figured out.

Just another "ah ha" moment for me. I was convinced that white, off the pipe flavor in the all corn would always be there, but I was wrong, boy how it's changed. I'm going to have to get some cornmeal and try this again.

Rusty

[SW_Shiner]

Ive found corn to be one of those grains that can be a deceptive hit or miss. Ive had all corn come off the pipe ready to drink and some that seems like nasty crap, but it has all cleaned up nice on some wood for a bit. Now you have first hand experience of why its always said to never throw something away right away just because you think its not right. Id hate to think about how much of my stuff has gone down the drain just because i didn't like the taste right off the still, but would have cleaned up nice on some wood.

[Turbo6ta]

Ever use 'flaked corn maize' instead of regular corn meal ?

I am going to try flaked corn maize along with corn flakes cereal and a little sugar and see how that turns out.

[SW_Shiner]

Ever use 'flaked corn maize' instead of regular corn meal ?

I am going to try flaked corn maize along with corn flakes cereal and a little sugar and see how that turns out.

Cereal cornflakes and sugar is my go to sipper that i have on hand to save my all grain stock for aging. Sometimes a couple loafs of rye bread get added for a little something extra.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Ive found corn to be one of those grains that can be a deceptive hit or miss. Ive had all corn come off the pipe ready to drink and some that seems like nasty crap, but it has all cleaned up nice on some wood for a bit. Now you have first hand experience of why its always said to never throw something away right away just because you think its not right. Id hate to think about how much of my stuff has gone down the drain just because i didn't like the taste right off the still, but would have cleaned up nice on some wood.

That is certainly the case with this one, SW. I was ready to toss it and my son was the one that convinced me to experiment with it. I definitely think it's worth trying again now. We were just doing silly stuff with it as far as wood to liquid ratio so I'd like to do more and age it appropriately to see if we can improve it even more.

Ever use 'flaked corn maize' instead of regular corn meal ?

I am going to try flaked corn maize along with corn flakes cereal and a little sugar and see how that turns out.

Hey Turbo, no I haven't. In fact I haven't tried cornmeal yet either, both my all corn runs have been using cracked corn livestock feed that I ground myself. I wanted to dip my toe into the all grain pool without braking the bank in case it turned out bad. I learned a lot from those two ferments, both about getting all grain to work and about how to run it. I only spent about $40 on each batch including propane. In comparison, my Oatmeal Raisin Cookie thing I'm doing cost about $120 per batch to make. Kinda like my GALLONS of SSS when I first got going, this was a learning exercise. My theory is to advance one step at a time, once I figure out what I'm working on, I've been progressing to something just a bit more difficult.

Cereal cornflakes and sugar is my go to sipper that i have on hand to save my all grain stock for aging. Sometimes a couple loafs of rye bread get added for a little something extra.

For my second ferment when I was just getting started I did a batch of Rad's All Bran using Total. I had to pitch it, I discovered blue flecks in it so it wound up being my second sacrificial run on my new set up. I've been wanting to try it again, it smelled great.


Rusty

[Dougmatt]

My first real batch of anything other than a white sugar wash (SSS) was Dougmatt's panela/molasses rum and I'm spoiled. I love that stuff more than any hard anything I've ever had.

Glad you enjoy it! I’m enjoying a drop as I type. Try different barrel types / oak for finishing. I especially like oak used to age Chardonnay as a finishing oak for this rum.

As for this corn topic:

Walmart corn is a HUGE NO. Ruined a lot of what should have been wmderfull HBB. Tsc corn is hit or miss. Try to get it fresh. Corn in general to me is a background flavor. The small grains are what make a whiskey / bourbon. I recently tried blue, red and yellow dent used in same aging process side by side and sure there’s a (very small) difference, but not one I would personally pay for…. It’s more important to get a fresh ‘ish, decent quality, good smelling base corn to layer in flavors on top of using the small grains.

JMO

D

[Bee]

BTW, you don't need to kill yourself mixing it as you mash. 2-3 minutes with a paint mixer at the addition of enzymes/malt is plenty.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

My first real batch of anything other than a white sugar wash (SSS) was Dougmatt's panela/molasses rum and I'm spoiled. I love that stuff more than any hard anything I've ever had.

Glad you enjoy it! I’m enjoying a drop as I type. Try different barrel types / oak for finishing. I especially like oak used to age Chardonnay as a finishing oak for this rum.

As for this corn topic:

Walmart corn is a HUGE NO. Ruined a lot of what should have been wmderfull HBB. Tsc corn is hit or miss. Try to get it fresh. Corn in general to me is a background flavor. The small grains are what make a whiskey / bourbon. I recently tried blue, red and yellow dent used in same aging process side by side and sure there’s a (very small) difference, but not one I would personally pay for…. It’s more important to get a fresh ‘ish, decent quality, good smelling base corn to layer in flavors on top of using the small grains.

JMO

D

I with you on that line of thinking Doug, I'm going to go for food grade cornmeal when I try this again, I'll probably put that and some wheat on an Azure order here before long and try a wheated bourbon style grain bill. I like wheat smoothness better than the rye bite in whiskey.

BTW, you don't need to kill yourself mixing it as you mash. 2-3 minutes with a paint mixer at the addition of enzymes/malt is plenty.

No killing here, before I ever started all grain I built an automated mixer. I'm old and broken, I'm automating any and all of the "killing" parts. I just pop it on top of the fermenter and lock her on go. I added a cheap Chinese voltage regulator so I can control the speed and a hole with a plug for dropping ingredients during the mix, i.e. nutrients, malt, enzymes. I was under the impression that all grain needed to be mixed during the cooking stage in order to break down and begin to convert; is that not the case?

Rusty

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Rusty, mixing/stirring is good to keep it from scorching when you're cooking and mashing.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Rusty, mixing/stirring is good to keep it from scorching when you're cooking and mashing.

I might have my mashing wires crossed then POPP, I thought mixing while cooking was necessary no matter what method you use to "cook" the grain as part of the starch conversion. I steep grain in 14 gallon blue barrels, it's not gonna to scorch. I get the water to a rolling boil, then I add about 2/3 of the water I want to use to the barrel, drop the mixer on and slowly add the grain through the ingredient port. I let that mix like that until the temps drop to malt/enzyme pitching temps, usually about an hour. Once I add those, it gets another hour or so of mixing, then topped with the rest of the water, capped and cooled for the yeast. I haven't tried cooking the grain on an active fire yet, as a novice I've felt like it was too much of a risk, everything I've done so far has been steeped and mixed for a couple of hours when we first put everything in the barrels.

Is that process not necessary if you're not over an active heat source? I do plan to make a wand for mashing for my steam generator now that I have that together, so I'll be giving that a try soon too.

Rusty

[Homebrewer11777]

Shipping on the Webstaurant 50 lb bag is almost $30. Shipping from AZ STD on a 100 lb order is about $9.00, so if I order more than just a bag of cornmeal then AZ STD is definitely a better deal for me, even tho I have to drive 20 minutes to the drop location to meet the truck. I typically buy 100+ lbs on every order from them - red/white wheat, rolled oats, cornmeal, rye (flaked or grain).

Here is their map of drop locations. Seems like almost everyone is within an hour of a drop unless you're in BF, Nevada (no offense meant to Nevadans - is that the right word?).

drop_map.png

I get 2 bags from webrestaurantstore to my house for $36 shipping. In February I paid a total of $72.46 for 100 pounds of corn (including the shipping to my doorstep). Made the best product I have made to date and I'm done with feed store corn. Checked price again today as I wrote this and seems to be the same.

AZ STD looks to be a bit more expensive even with that $9 shipping. About $90 for 100 pounds. And I disagree regarding convenience of the shipping. I live in a well populated area (New York City region) but there seem to be no drop zones within 2 hours of my house. Would like to try it to see if their organic product is even nicer than the Agricor from WRS but the delivery issue is just a deal breaker.

[Bee]

Rusty, mixing/stirring is good to keep it from scorching when you're cooking and mashing.

He's doing a large batch mash (dumping hot water into dry grain). The only stirring he has to do is just enough to break it up.
I keep stirring to a minimum to preserve heat.

Rusty Ole Bucket, it sounds like you have a very nice set-up. We'll have to discuss squeezing the mash sometime.