Apple Brandy Recipe

[cranky]

... has anyone fermented ground up apples without pressing into juice?

I know some of the European members here like to do it that way. I don't because the pulp will bleed, rise up, clog the airlocks and make a mess and take a lot more space to ferment.

[The Baker]

I've done it.
No airlock, not needed anyway because the carbon dioxide will protect the top from the air.
Press down the stuff that rises to the top every day or two or whatever, so it doesn't get too dry.
Gently so as not to incorporate oxygen after the first stage of fermentation.
Doesn't actually take ANY more space I think, or not much anyway.

This is the way traditional wine makers used to work, open fermenters.

Geoff

[NZChris]

has anyone fermented ground up apples without pressing into juice? That would sure remove a lot of the work doing the pressing. Here is my press - ...

A pic of your still would help. It can be done with a still over fire and there are a couple of tricks to prevent burn on, but I haven't tried them with apples because my press is large enough to press what I need.

[cranky]

Doesn't actually take ANY more space I think, or not much anyway.

That is incorrect. Here is the math.

A bucket of apples weighs approximately 24 lbs. Ground up into a pulp a bucket will hold approximately 48 lbs of apples until they bleed out enough of the juice to float the pulp which will then float up to approximately 1/3rd above the bucket and overflow all over the back seat of your Ford Taurus or wherever it happens to be. Therefor at best you can only fill the bucket 2/3rds full which means 32 lbs per 5 gallon bucket.

Pressed that 32 lbs of apple pulp will produce somewhere between 2 - 2.7 gallons of juice taking up considerably less room than if it were fermented on the pulp.

That may not seem like a significant amount to some but wait until you have 1,000 lbs of apples to ferment.

1,000 lbs of ground apples would take up the space of approximately three 55 gallon drums or 32 buckets. If pressed it would produce somewhere between 62 and 77 gallons of juice, therefore taking considerably less fermenting space. 1,000 lbs really isn't that many apples. My record was something like 130 gallons of juice which means somewhere around 1900 lbs of apples which if fermented as pulp would have required the equivalent space of almost 300 gallons of juice.

[higgins]

NZChris, here's a pic during a stripping run. That's a 15 gallon (56 liter) Blichmann kettle.

The dome is sealed with flour paste, and that is always a b***h to clean up. I'm going to pick up a 15.5 gal Sanke keg and convert that to still in, leaving the Blichmann for beer making.

As for the Apple Brandy, I was thinking of fermenting on the pulp, thinking that I might get more flavor that way.

I'll have 4 or 5 helpers on picking/juicing day, so I'll go ahead and juice it before fermentation. If I wait till after, I'll have to do it by myself.

Thanks for the input, guys.

Edit: I forgot to mention that after grinding with my disposal, it is virtually pulpy juice already. As I make up the 4 cheeses for pressing, by the time I get the 4th one done and ready to press there is already a couple of gallons of juice in the catch bucket.

[The Baker]

Thanks for the correction, cranky.

Geoff

[cranky]

Thanks for the correction, cranky.

Geoff

I hope I didn't come across as too much of an A-hole. I might some day try fermenting and running on the pulp just to see how it turns out.

[cranky]

I forgot to mention that after grinding with my disposal, it is virtually pulpy juice already. As I make up the 4 cheeses for pressing, by the time I get the 4th one done and ready to press there is already a couple of gallons of juice in the catch bucket.

The pulp run through my chopper is the same way.

I have been known to separate the juice into unpressed (extra-extra virgin?), 1st pressing (extra virgin? ) and 2nd pressing (virgin?) and even frozen the pulp afterwards then thawed it and repressed (Not virgin any more? )

the unpressed will produce the most flavor, with the flavor dissipating with each subsequent pressing. The non virgin juice produced cider and "brandy" with so little flavor it isn't worth the effort and if mixed with the the rest only removes flavor.

I will say one of the best ways to increase flavor is the yeast used. I always recommend 1118 for beginners but unless my garage is very cold I don't generally use it. I generally choose a yeast that adds it's own fruity esters but this makes cuts hard. Last year I was given a crap load of Minute Maid canned juice so I spent extra money and bought Ciderhouse yeast and am quite impressed with how it added to the cheap canned apple juice brandy but cuts were difficult.

[Spike007]

Trying this way after a lifetime of Washington red delicious from grandad's farm alas big companies bought it out after he passed. Trying first time with just 3 apple pressed from tree top. Also tried the tc-1118 yeast don't know if it's the apple difference or the yeast but the hard cider is much drier tasting than God knows what grandad was using. The cider taste's great I'm waiting longer to run the beer or is it wine with Apple's. Either way looking forward to the run I'm a month into it and prolly will run in November. But who can resist a lil hard cider during the long waits with apple Brandy. I kept back 6 gallons to see me through the upcoming years. Loving it. Spike

[Spike007]

Question, I watched lots of an participated in lots of potstill runs without ever seeing or needing a thermometer ( I know guys don't like em) but when running apple brandy my grandfather always added one he said to make cuts easier he'd hold it at 164 to 166 Fahrenheit for about 20 or more minutes then start collecting after cranking up to 173 or a Lil higher. Do you think that he did this to sorta let the feints an methanol go away therefore collecting heads an hearts right of the bat as he claimed or ??? He always did this with his brandy only. I'm pretty sure it narrowed and made brandy cuts easier. I'm interested in what ppl think of this would you have the good heads immediately an with some tinkering with later cuts added an easier time reconstructing the apple flavor or was he just getting rid of methanol an other off flavors. I'm prolly a month or two from. Running an thinking of putting a thermometer at the top of the arm on potstill when running fruits especially apples. Curious what others think will this help me find the elusive great apple brandy or just skip me into flavors I don't want. I'm not running a big potstill just a ten gallon interchangeable pot/ reflux still any suggestions welcomed I'm probably gonna run it as a potstill but I'm still a long way from that also heating with propane so this might be difficult but not impossible to hold temps . Meantime enjoying some sips of hard cider watching baseball playoffs. Spike

[DetroitDIY]

Oops, late reply to Higgins from August... I make a fair bit of cider from trees in the area that people don't mind me picking. I've never fermented on the pulp and then pressed, though I do that with grains. I've wondered the same as you recently about making apple sauce and then fermenting... likely lose some of the delicate volatile flavors, but pick up some cooked quality. Seems it might be a technique for a person without a grinder and press.

[DetroitDIY]

to make cuts easier he'd hold it at 164 to 166 Fahrenheit for about 20 or more minutes then start collecting after cranking up to 173 or a Lil higher.

Hey Spike, I don't think that description follows the rules of physics (chemistry?) too well for a still running open to atmosphere (as ours are). The vapor temperature should be a function of what's in the vapor. The way to have the temperature rise is for the distilled vapor components to change (via taking off the most volatile stuff and letting the next most volatile stuff come through). As you run your still, first the fores, then the heads, then hearts, then feints come over. Each with progressively less volatile products (requiring a higher temperature to boil off). If you just add more heat to your still, you'll either just distill your wash faster (and smear more for a pot still), or add more cooling to knock down the vapor. In either case the temp reflects what's in the vapor.

In a reflux still, people do often hold it at about the temp you describe for about the time you describe. all the vapor is being knocked back, nothing is coming off the still, and the fores/heads are compressing to come over in a more condensed manner when the distiller allows it (by reducing coolant or opening a take off drain or such). But you cannot add more heat to just raise the vapor temp from 165 to 173. That will only happen by allowing some distillate to come across and have lower volatile vapors come over at the 173 range. There are plenty of topics on this elsewhere in the forum where you can read up more on this.

I'm running my still in pot mode right now, a spirit run from stripped 25 gallons of mead. Condensate started coming over at 164.5 as you suggest. It's at 173 right now, but I've already taken 5,600 ml of off to allow the temp to rise to that level. Much of that is in the hearts, and for apple brandy, you'll want a good deal of the heads from the distillate < 173F too.

Cheers!
DetroitDIY

[BrewinBrian44]

Oak question:

I’ve got some single use oak stave fingers that just got pulled from some bourbon and I’m wondering how much I should use for my apple brandy I’m running tomorrow.

My initial thought is I don’t want this brandy to taste like whiskey. I’m considering the following:
1) Take my oak fingers “1”x1”x4” and cutting them in half per quart jar to have a milder oak profile.
2) Lower aging proof for softer oak flavors. Something like 53%ABV

How is this logic sounding? This is my first time with fruit. Crossing my fingers the cuts won’t be baffling to my whiskey geared brain.

[NormandieStill]

Personally I wouldn't use ex-bourbon fingers. I've posted on this before but at least one Calvados producer (I've not seen any others go into such detail on their ageing method) uses fresh french oak for a few months, before moving onto used barrels for the bulk of the ageing to reduce the wood flavour. The goal is get some nice sweet vanillins out of the oak, and then minimise the contribution of the wood beyond gas exchange and tails clean-up.

But I've not tried this for myself. That'll be happening later this year or early next year depending on when I run the brandy.

[higgins]

NormandieStill, thanks for that tidbit of info on the Calvados producer. I would assume that the used barrels that they use are toasted but uncharred wine/sherry/port barrels.

In May of last year I bought a 1.75L bottle of port wine and poured it into 2 quart jars that each had about 8 toasted (not charred) white oak sticks. The purpose was to create 'port sticks' in anticipation of using them to do some extra 'finishing' on some of my whiskeys.

On 1 Nov I put 5+ L of apple brandy in a BMOB that is toasted (medium) but not charred. Based on this new info I think I'll take about half of it out (probably sometime in January) and put it on 2 of the port sticks in a gallon jug. It should be interesting to compare their progress over time.

[cranky]

Oak question:

I’ve got some single use oak stave fingers that just got pulled from some bourbon and I’m wondering how much I should use for my apple brandy I’m running tomorrow.

My initial thought is I don’t want this brandy to taste like whiskey. I’m considering the following:
1) Take my oak fingers “1”x1”x4” and cutting them in half per quart jar to have a milder oak profile.
2) Lower aging proof for softer oak flavors. Something like 53%ABV

How is this logic sounding? This is my first time with fruit. Crossing my fingers the cuts won’t be baffling to my whiskey geared brain.

My suggestion is less is a good idea. Use a small amount of oak, maybe a a lower % and check it and make the decision to add of remove more in a few months.

YeePee has a good thread about oaking and aging and Jumbo talks about his method in his apple thread. My own methods vary but one of my best ever was a 1x1x6" oak stick that had been used 2 or 3 times over several years. The sticks were placed in 1/2 gallon jars filled with lower proof brandy and left with loose lids on top of heater vents for a year or so. Being well used sticks kept them from imparting too much oak and overpowering the brandy.

[BrewinBrian44]

Oak question:

I’ve got some single use oak stave fingers that just got pulled from some bourbon and I’m wondering how much I should use for my apple brandy I’m running tomorrow.

My initial thought is I don’t want this brandy to taste like whiskey. I’m considering the following:
1) Take my oak fingers “1”x1”x4” and cutting them in half per quart jar to have a milder oak profile.
2) Lower aging proof for softer oak flavors. Something like 53%ABV

How is this logic sounding? This is my first time with fruit. Crossing my fingers the cuts won’t be baffling to my whiskey geared brain.

My suggestion is less is a good idea. Use a small amount of oak, maybe a a lower % and check it and make the decision to add of remove more in a few months.

YeePee has a good thread about oaking and aging and Jumbo talks about his method in his apple thread. My own methods vary but one of my best ever was a 1x1x6" oak stick that had been used 2 or 3 times over several years. The sticks were placed in 1/2 gallon jars filled with lower proof brandy and left with loose lids on top of heater vents for a year or so. Being well used sticks kept them from imparting too much oak and overpowering the brandy.

Thanks for the suggestions on the oak. I’ll give Jimbo’s thread a read as well.

As I’m writing this, I’m currently performing my spirit run. I posted in another thread about this; my cider ferment actually got infected because I fermented in a large vessel that doesn’t have a lid that can fully seal. Lots of headspace let oxygen and other stuff get in. I gave it a taste and it seemed reminiscent of some sour ales I’ve tried with a fruity ester profile, it wasn’t bad, but definitely not exclusively apple-y flavors. I worried acetobacter may have gotten in the fermenter, but I couldn’t detect a vinegary flavor. Something did consume some of the ethanol though, Because my projected yield was off.

Now that I’m running it “pot still,” I noticed the jars have a peculiar sting to the nose, mixed in with the apple. It reminds me of the stinging sensation on the nose when doing a vinegar cleaning run. Im assuming it’s acetic acid or other acid smearing into my run. Im very worried this is ruined. Any thoughts here?

I will say, the flavor of the distillate is very nice. It doesn’t smell like vinegar, only has the stingy nose to it. In diluted samples off the still I don’t really notice it. Only in the high proof jars.

[NormandieStill]

NormandieStill, thanks for that tidbit of info on the Calvados producer. I would assume that the used barrels that they use are toasted but uncharred wine/sherry/port barrels.

In May of last year I bought a 1.75L bottle of port wine and poured it into 2 quart jars that each had about 8 toasted (not charred) white oak sticks. The purpose was to create 'port sticks' in anticipation of using them to do some extra 'finishing' on some of my whiskeys.

On 1 Nov I put 5+ L of apple brandy in a BMOB that is toasted (medium) but not charred. Based on this new info I think I'll take about half of it out (probably sometime in January) and put it on 2 of the port sticks in a gallon jug. It should be interesting to compare their progress over time.

I'm not certain, but I suspect that they just cycle their own barrels where a barrel is considered "new" when it's had less than (say) 1 year of use. When you average that out across some hundred barrels where some have had 3 months and others 1 year you probably end up somewhere pretty nice. I planned on leaving some sticks in some neutral (ish) to try and pull out a lot of the aggressive flavour. Maybe high-proof to target the more astringent tannins. But I'm going to have to get on with that soon.

[BrewinBrian44]

Well, I finished my run today. What I thought was acid was simply aggressive volatile vapor evaporating. It was only in the first half of the jars. Most of it boiled off while I was collecting the rest of the tails.

Man, my cuts are going to be very difficult. There’s so much extra flavor going on with the esters from the infection and the fact part of my cider wash had cinnamon infused in it. I’ve already started testing some blends and man, it’s a real head scratcher. There’s no one jar that actually smells or tastes exclusively apple-y. This is waaaaay different than what I’m used to with whiskey. I’ll update when I get the final blend figured out. So far, it’s looking like my keeper cut is 76%, which seems high for a pot still run. I wish I could keep some of the early tails. They have great body and sweetness, but in the blend they seem to add a slight bitterness I’m not fond of. My current thought on the proposed blend looks like 35-40% of the total available alcohol in the boiler charge.

[BrewinBrian44]

Finished my cuts today.

By far the hardest thing I’ve made to date, because of the cuts.

I’ve never, ever dipped into heads jars like this, but the pure heart cut was very plain. Not bad, nice sweetness and body, but very little on the nose. I’m glad I waited for a day of airing on the jars to pick my final blend, made things a little easier to discern.

Instead of adding a bunch of whole heads jars to the spirit, I used small portions of early jars. I made a bunch of test blends with the safe hearts to see what they would contribute to the overall spirit. To my surprise, most of the more delicate aroma came from the first 4 jars. I ended up adding about 50ml each from jars 3-5. The earlier jars had too much paint thinner going on to make me feel comfortable. I was also able to collect 2 jars deeper into tails than I thought I would last night. I think I just needed to give my taste buds a rest.

As for tails, it seems that’s where the cinnamon sticks were hiding. They have an interesting floral-cedar like flavor. I ended up blending in 20ml of a late tails jar to capture some of this in the blend, without the rest of the stink.

Final yield from an 8gal low wines run at 20% ABV was 0.875gal. Perhaps I could have gone deeper into the tails, but I feel reasonably safe here.

After partaking in some samples, I can say the “buzz” this stuff provides is much like drinking red wine. Hits the whole body. I believe some of this sensation is from heads compounds that need some time, evaporation and micro oxidation to mellow out.

Going to age it at 53%ABV with half of a toasted and charred used oak finger per quart jar. I’ll give it a taste in 6 months to see what’s happening. I have large cork stoppers for the jars that I’ll loosely fit to allow some oxygen transfer.


Thanks again for this thread Cranky, it’s been my go to for figuring out my first fruit spirit.

[cranky]

It tends to be a bit difficult to reconstruct the apple when blending. In the past I've had 10 gallons go vinegar on me and ran it anyway. I think it may have been one of the easiest I've ever done cuts on and it made a very fine brandy.

I've also actually skipped the hearts all together on some runs which produced a very fine drink with better flavor than if I'd included the hearts. Although the ghost of the apple tends to hide for quite some time before showing itself. 6 months is a minimum...I know, it's hard to wait that long but the longer the better.

Apple brandy does require more heads than whiskey people usually keep but it's necessary.

I planned on leaving some sticks in some neutral (ish) to try and pull out a lot of the aggressive flavour. Maybe high-proof to target the more astringent tannins.

I actually do this routinely, especially if I opt to do any char. I leave it in the neutral anywhere from 24hrs to a week.

[BrewinBrian44]

Thanks Cranky

I’ll plan on giving this a long rest. One year minimum, but hopefully two years does the trick. I’ve got plenty of other stuff that should be ready to consume in the meantime.

One thing I find peculiar. I bought some Lairds Apple Brandy, the bottled in bond one. Tastes very apple-y, pretty dang good! Made some great cocktails with it. One thing I notice is how sweet it is! No way all that is just coming from the spirit and oak. Do they add sugar to their spirit?! Maybe my perceptions are off.

[BrewinBrian44]

Update:

Couldn’t help myself, had to take a sniff and a tiny sip of my control jar, which is non-oaked at 53%. Only been 8 days and it’s already is starting to smell like the apple is peeking through. The flavor is definitely turning apple. For sure it’s got a little heat from the early jars. There’s also some additional fruity esters in there from the infection. Excited to see how this develops in a year or two!

I’m thinking this should become a fall tradition!

[BrewinBrian44]

I got impatient today and wanted to sneak a taste of the apple brandy aging with oak. At this point, it’s taken on a nice golden color.

Wow, tastes very apple-y! I did it! The oak has already smoothed out the drink quite substantially when compared to the white control jar. I like the subtlety of the oak flavor I’m getting at this point, so I decided to remove it after 2.5 months. I’m going to leave them to age with the cork lids for quite a bit longer to take advantage of micro-oxidation and additional smoothing. Things are definitely heading in the right direction!

[BrewinBrian44]

After two full years of aging, I proofed down my apple brandy to 40%. Fantastic stuff. It’s true, the long wait is worth it.

I aged with 3 different oak profiles, all the oak originating from a Buffalo Trace barrel I broke down. My oak fingers were all used once in my Honey Bear Bourbon. These were the treatments:

400 degree 2hr toast + char
400 degree 2hr toast no char
Un-toasted + char

The darker toasted jars had the most complex flavor. Pastry like and rich. My favorite.

My wife likes the dark toast with no char, it seems a little smoother with a bit more apple

The untoasted with char is also good, just not as complex.

Overall, I think I nailed it. There’s a lot of apple flavor coming through with additional fruity notes. The floral / cedar like flavor pops out in the finish.

I couldn’t have got here without this thread, thanks again!

[Bradster68]

After two full years of aging, I proofed down my apple brandy to 40%. Fantastic stuff. It’s true, the long wait is worth it.

I aged with 3 different oak profiles, all the oak originating from a Buffalo Trace barrel I broke down. My oak fingers were all used once in my Honey Bear Bourbon. These were the treatments:

400 degree 2hr toast + char
400 degree 2hr toast no char
Un-toasted + char

The darker toasted jars had the most complex flavor. Pastry like and rich. My favorite.

My wife likes the dark toast with no char, it seems a little smoother with a bit more apple

The untoasted with char is also good, just not as complex.

Overall, I think I nailed it. There’s a lot of apple flavor coming through with additional fruity notes. The floral / cedar like flavor pops out in the finish.

I couldn’t have got here without this thread, thanks again!

Just curious if you proofed down with water or an apple concentrated juice?
I'm definitely using the concentrate for my apple brandy

[BrewinBrian44]

I want to stay true to an authentic brandy, so I proofed down with water. It didn’t take much water due to the evaporation of alcohol while aging. I used large cork stoppers on the jars to encourage oxygen exchange.

Is it still considered brandy if you proof down with juice? Probably delicious.

[PalCabral]

Fantastic thread, Cranky. This is super inspirational and I'm sitting here thinking why I didn't read this thread 6 months ago. I've got two apple trees in the garden and there's just so much apples we can eat.

[NormandieStill]

I want to stay true to an authentic brandy, so I proofed down with water. It didn’t take much water due to the evaporation of alcohol while aging. I used large cork stoppers on the jars to encourage oxygen exchange.

Is it still considered brandy if you proof down with juice? Probably delicious.

If you proof it down with apple juice (ideally from around 60%) then you get pommeau. In normandy, pommeau is made and then aged itself in oak barrels. Not sure if it's made from white brandy, or already aged stuff. It comes out at around 20% and is damn tasty.