Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

[StillerBoy]

I had gone up to 85 litres, it was not a problem for two batches, but the third was contaminated.

The original PO issue what with a poorly construction recipe.. your issue is with sanitizing problem, not the batch size.. two different item..

Mars

[Garouda]

I had gone up to 85 litres, it was not a problem for two batches, but the third was contaminated.

The original PO issue what with a poorly construction recipe.. your issue is with sanitizing problem, not the batch size.. two different item..

Mars

I disagree, not sanitizing, but contamination, and by the way, I'm on the spot, and have several HL of sugar wash behind me... Most of the people use an airlock, I don't. With 85 litres, the free surface above the wash was only 7 cm high, instead of 15 with my usual 70-litre batches. On top of that, below my balcony there were two star-fruit trees with lots of fruit on the ground, rotting. Opening the lid of my fermenter can create turbulences that disturb the shallow protective CO2 layer. Acetobacter aceti are in the air... I do not place the fermenter in that corner any more.
By the way, according to what I could see, orange or blue colour distillates, lots of small parts of foam on the wash, IMHO it's also a sanitizing/contamination problem in this case, linked with a poor recipe. For sugar washes, TFFV and Shady's, I prefer TFFV because, besides nutrients, bran has "Particles for them to stick to, which helps to keep them suspended in the fermenting fluid." (Compleat Distiller page 13).
My sanitizing procedure is the following, wash the vessels with a bleach solution, rinse carefully. Put the sugar in large pots with water, bring to boil, pour the boiling sugar/water solution and the boiling bran into the fermenter. The T° rises to 80 °C, enough for pasteurization. The next morning, I add water to level, yeast and nutrients. Stainless steel fermenter 50 cm H x Ø 50 cm (+/- 98 litres, 1litre = 1.96 cm)...

[Garouda]

Do remember that many parts of this hobby are not an exact science, a large part of it is more of a craft/ art.

Well, that's partially wrong, the wine production has improved a lot after the research conducted by Pr Pascal Ribéreau-Gayon in France. Or ask students at the Adelaide university…Myself I like to refer to a quite scientific German Book “Technologie der Obstbrennerei”. Some scientific background helps you to understand what’s going on. When I read some comments where people add CaCO3 and citric acid at the same time, it's obvious that they are just playing the sorcerer's apprentice. Yeast can survive in a range between 3.5 and 6. Best at 4.5, but it’s not a must.
So far, I haven’t seen yet a post talking about the calculation of the total acidity in a wash. That’s the right way to know how much citric acid or CaCO3 is needed though, hence my comment about the sorcerer’s apprentice. It's a simple titration, but it requires a bit of equipment and know-how.
The discussion about invert sugar does not make that much sense, allow the yeast to do their job (invertase). Oxygenation at the beginning of fermentation allows the multiplication of yeasts, this to answer some comments in this thread. In fact, yeast also produces ethanol in aerobic environment, but we can leave this aside here (Crabtree effect).
You got a point by the way, you apply a TT recipe and stick to it without unnecessary pH measurements, and it works, that's the right thing to do. Making lots of measurements can only be the cause of a wash contamination and many pictures on this thread show something that looks like an acetobacter aceti contamination I got once when I over-increased my batch size.
I disagree when you write science has less to do here, it has a lot, but you need some background; on the other hand, I agree when you advise sticking to a tried-and-true recipe.

[NZChris]

You got a point by the way, you apply a TT recipe and stick to it without unnecessary pH measurements, and it works, that's the right thing to do.

I don't recall seeing a T&T method that includes using an amount of powdered CaCO3 in the recipe and I suspect that there isn't one. I'd like to know where Hebden found a T&T that recommends that so that I can check it out myself.

[Garouda]

You got a point by the way, you apply a TT recipe and stick to it without unnecessary pH measurements, and it works, that's the right thing to do.

I don't recall seeing a T&T method that includes using an amount of powdered CaCO3 in the recipe and I suspect that there isn't one. I'd like to know where Hebden found a T&T that recommends that so that I can check it out myself.

Well, the culprit is Shady :"A cup or two of crushed oyster shell/coral that's normally used as chicken feed helps for pH control."
It will work as a pH buffer, if the pH drops below a certain limit, the acid will react with the calcium and stop the pH decrease.
Remark Shady does not say powdered CaCO3 which would be a mistake

[NZChris]

Crushed is not powdered and has much less surface area in contact with the wash.

[Garouda]

Crushed is not powdered and has much less surface area in contact with the wash.

You're fully right.
It does not make any sense to me to add CaCO3 in a wash, except in case of a pH drop or an acetobacter aceti contamination (vinegar). CaCO3 neutralizes the acetic acid that killed the yeasts, and when it's done, one has to pitch new yeast. Activate the dry yeast with your wash, not with plain water, to see how they react in that environment.

[NZChris]

You have to be careful not to follow advice, and double down on advice, that has evolved via Chinese Whispers type repetitions.

Blocks of marble react slower than whole shells, which react slower than crushed shells, which react slower than powdered CaCO3.

[shadylane]

It does not make any sense to me to add CaCO3 in a wash, except in case of a pH drop or an acetobacter aceti contamination (vinegar). CaCO3 neutralizes the acetic acid that killed the yeasts, and when it's done, one has to pitch new yeast. Activate the dry yeast with your wash, not with plain water, to see how they react in that environment.

Adding crushed shells makes a lot of sense to me.
It keeps the pH from dropping too low, without the need for accurate measurements.

On a side note.
If there's enough vinegar to kill the yeast, restarting the wash is a waste of time.

[Yummyrum]

Absolutely

And shell grit ain’t shell grit ….
Took a walk to the chook shed .
Last time , we had this .

The new bag looks like this .

Thats the stuff I normally use incidentally .


Probably completey off topic , but at work , one of the demos is surface area of a reactant . And strangely …. or not …. I have to supply weighed amounts of Marble Chips and Calcium carbinate powder . The two are reacted with Hydrochloric acid .
The CaCO3 powder reacts violently and frothing foaming mess explodes out of the test tube …… while the same weight of Marble chip ( which is also CaCO3 ) very slowly bubbles away and inveraiable , never gets reacted before the period is over .

[shadylane]

And shell grit ain’t shell grit ….

I figure half or more is crushed coral.

[Yummyrum]

And shell grit ain’t shell grit ….

I figure half or more is crushed coral.

Gosh I hope not Shady
Thems be fighten words around here . We want to protect our Coral reefs

[NZChris]

Overshooting a pH target is best avoided whatever method you are using. The finer the grind, the faster CaCO3 reacts and the more likely it is that you will make a mistake using it.

When you take advice off the net, you still have to check that it is working for you. Your water may be harder or softer than my water, so what works for me might not work for you. A lot of the old hands here don't use any form of CaCO3 in their washes and I only use shells in washes that have had a history of pH crashes.

[Yummyrum]

True thing Chris

Me and Saltbush live relatively nearby . We both use rain water . He’s got a Concrete tank , I’ve got a plastic tank .

So where his acid rain will dissolve a bit of his concrete tank and help his pH , my acid rain needs a bit of extra help .

Edit : Salty , used you as an example …. Not point to take .

[Saltbush Bill]

Sorry Yummy , but to add the the confusion I have a fiberglass tank , I once had a very small concrete tank that collected water in , which in turn got pumped into a much larger Poly tank for storage......I'll give you a guided tour of the tanks next visit if you want.
What ever the case Ive rarely if ever had PH issues in any washes Ive made.
Personally I still think that newbies and many others completely overthink the whole PH thing......I just don't worry about it , other than dumping a few shells into a SSS when I make one and not adding to much dunder to a UJSSM when I start a new generation.
I'm in this hobby for the enjoyment and to make a bit of cheap booze......not to act as some sort of molecular scientist as some seem to want to.

[shadylane]

I've noticed it's the folks with pH meters that measure to the third decimal.
That are the ones that seem to have the most pH problems.

[shadylane]

Thems be fighten words around here . We want to protect our Coral reefs

Here's what my bag of chicken grit list for Ingredients.

Oyster Shell and Coral Calcium.

[bilgriss]

Worrying and obsession is the cause of 80% of pH swings.
94% of statistics are made up.

[Setsumi]

And shell grit ain’t shell grit ….

I figure half or more is crushed coral.

Gosh I hope not Shady
Thems be fighten words around here . We want to protect our Coral reefs

Over hear your top image is about what we get... unless it comes from the other place. Ours is not coral. If i am lucky I can get it myself from the beach, but the beach with the price of fuel aint happening.

[StillerBoy]

Worrying and obsession is the cause of 80% of pH swings.

I would disagree.. f**ked up recipes and failure to understand why sugar wash have a Ph issue..

Mars

[shadylane]

It never ceases to amaze me how many different ways folks can come up with to stall a ferment.
Yeast is bull frog tough, yet folks keep finding different ways to F#ck up.

[bunny]

It never ceases to amaze me how many different ways folks can come up with to stall a ferment.
Yeast is bull frog tough, yet folks keep finding different ways to F#ck up.

I love frog legs, battered and fried.

[Garouda]

It does not make any sense to me to add CaCO3 in a wash, except in case of a pH drop or an acetobacter aceti contamination (vinegar). CaCO3 neutralizes the acetic acid that killed the yeasts, and when it's done, one has to pitch new yeast. Activate the dry yeast with your wash, not with plain water, to see how they react in that environment.

Adding crushed shells makes a lot of sense to me.
It keeps the pH from dropping too low, without the need for accurate measurements.

You did not quote the relevant remark I made about oyster shells which was :
"It will work as a pH buffer, if the pH drops below a certain limit, the acid will react with the calcium and stop the pH decrease "
I would even recommend leaving the oyster shells as a whole, crushed, they will have a too large reacting surface...

On a side note.
If there's enough vinegar to kill the yeast, restarting the wash is a waste of time.

I would agree for a small batch, not for a large one... Same as the caustic soda treatment for a stripping run that has too much acetate ester in it.
I just referred to Pieper/Bruchmann/Kolb "Technologie der Obstbrennerei p.268

[shadylane]

I would even recommend leaving the oyster shells as a whole, crushed, they will have a too large reacting surface...

Having the oyster shell crushed works best with the tap water I use.
A 10% sugar wash takes around 4 days from start to finish.
I usually let the wash clear another 2 or 3 days before degassing and distilling.

[shadylane]

On a side note.
If there's enough vinegar to kill the yeast, restarting the wash is a waste of time.

I would agree for a small batch, not for a large one... Same as the caustic soda treatment for a stripping run that has too much acetate ester in it.
I just referred to Pieper/Bruchmann/Kolb "Technologie der Obstbrennerei p.268

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I make sure at the beginning there's no need for pH corrections.
Especially, if I was doing large batches.

Once a mistake is done.
No amount of caustic soda or tricks is going to fix the taste made by stressed yeast.

[Garouda]

I make sure at the beginning there's no need for pH corrections.

That's why I'm going to start right now my fourth 70-litre of TFFV in this year

[The Baker]

Thanks, Garouda.

I have an 80 odd litre batch of UJ that I am sure has turned to actual vinegar.
I think it would be past saving (to distil).

What do others think?

Geoff

[still_stirrin]

Thanks, Garouda.

I have an 80 odd litre batch of UJ that I am sure has turned to actual vinegar.
I think it would be past saving (to distil).

What do others think?

Geoff

Distilling vinegar will produce mostly water at the spout because the boiling point of acetic acid (vinegar) is higher than H2O. However, if by chance you actually produced some alcohol in the ferment, it will produce off-still. So, it may be worthwhile to distill it anyway. Just don't expect a "barrel full" of liquor.
ss

[shadylane]

Thanks, Garouda.

I have an 80 odd litre batch of UJ that I am sure has turned to actual vinegar.
I think it would be past saving (to distil).

What do others think?

Geoff

Ya messed up a good wash.
Distill it for the learning experience.
Then drink it for punishment.

[Garouda]

Thanks, Garouda.

I have an 80 odd litre batch of UJ that I am sure has turned to actual vinegar.
I think it would be past saving (to distil).

What do others think?

Geoff

It's difficult to eliminate vinegar (acetic acid) by distillation. It all depends upon your still, with a pot still, even if acetic acid has got a high boiling point (117.9 °C), you will get some in your output, but no more if it's neutralized. Add some CaCO3 (2g/L) and try to distil it. What you will get in your wash is calcium acetate 2CH3COOH +CaCO3 ---> Ca(CH3COO)2 +H2O+CO2 it’s a salt and it’s soluble in water.
In case the esterification took place (CH3COOC2H5), it's a reversible process in a strong base environment (caustic soda high pH), but if you are not used to such a manipulation, I would advise again such a solution.
See also page 101, PDF in French
La Distillation Moderne des Fruits
H.Tanner et H.Brunner - 1982