What on God’s earth is a “Rancio Profile”

[Liquid_Luv]

OK, get ready... here comes another long winded L_L post

But I have also read that some of the younger (relatively speaking) likkers can display this "rancio" note.

So to bring this thing on topic,,,.. Ya gotta believe that if aged dunder can be benificial then certainly aged wash, or even low wines for that matter would at the very least not be a bad thing.
I would love for someone to confirm that this iconic and coveted rancio profile can be enhanced/achieved by aged wine/beer.

Very interesting line of thought… I have some ideas on that, but before I take off on it, it may help folks get a better understanding of what on God’s earth is a “Rancio Profile”

“Rancio” wad once thought to be the exclusive, illusive domain of fruit based wines and spirits that after barrel aging under certain conditions would produce this coveted profile. The profile has since been chemically identified and confirmed to exist in not only fruit based wines and brandies, but in fine Old Whiskeys as well as many Rums.

The rancio profile is not well defined by most, as rather than being very specific, it means similar yet different things to many folks… the profile may perhaps be best described by the likes of… really good old aged classic Balsamic Vinegar, or even similar to Kikkoman light Soy Sauce… Portobello mushrooms sautéed in real butter, etc…

As per a veteran pro taster…

Rancio is a desirable flavor in well-aged fruit-based brandies, but it's very hard to define. I read somewhere that it's an "earthy, cheesy, mushroomy" flavor. Personally, I would add soy sauce to that list, but it's a flavor that, until you've tasted it a few times, is hard to understand.
Nation's Restaurant News, July 17, 2000 by Gary Regan

But the bottom line, and the origin of the description comes from Rancio Wines… Rancio is a type of wine popular throughout Spain and Southern France… buy a bottle of Madeira or Marsala Wine… smell it, taste it… that is Rancio! That taste is common place in the finest old brandies and cognacs… yes, quite prominent as well in Pusser’s 15 year old “Red Label” Navy Rum… good shit that is indeed!

Excellent read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_63693748" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And another… http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15058007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Now following this extended edification… my take on this is as follows…

I am still not too sure if pre-aging a fermented wash, or aging on lees, will have any effects on producing the chemical profiles discovered in association with this profile or not… or even speed aging through oak and oxidation as in the Madeirization techniques used to produce Rancio Wines… or just good old long term barrel aging… 25 - 30+ years on average…

On a positive note... I have noticed the aromatic profiles of “Rancio” in my Fully Aged Dunder [Aged to absolute completion]… although I have never sent samples to analyze for the chemical compounds associated with the Rancio Profile… but you got me thinking and I intend to do quite a bit more research on this one… thanks for bumping up my workload Larry!!!

[Azframer]

If you follow the link supplied and read it it will tell you. They don't spoon feed every thing to you here. You will have to try harder and it will sink in.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _63693748/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[blind drunk]

From the link -

It certainly isn't present in every bottling of that age, but sooner or later you'll taste the earthy, lactic flavor that's the pride of many brandy makers and now has been proved present in some single-malt scotches.

Ah, now I know what's being described. I get that flavour in naturally fermented bread. Luckily, it only takes about 48 hours in the bread process and not thirty or so years. But what's interesting is that it takes 30 plus years for Scotch, fifteen years for rum and 48 hours for bread. Food for thought.

bd

[blanikdog]

... They don't spoon feed every thing to you here. You will have to try harder and it will sink in. ...

Spot on Azframer. Great to see that you understand. My old university motto is "Qui cherche trouve" and it hasn't yet let me down.

[Liquid_Luv]

... They don't spoon feed every thing to you here. You will have to try harder and it will sink in. ...

Spot on Azframer. Great to see that you understand. My old university motto is "Qui cherche trouve" and it hasn't yet let me down.

OK, here I go again... seems like I just can't keep my mouth shut and stop pissin folks off... but if ya all can't read and/ or understand what ya just read... yer gonna stick yer foot in that ole mouth again

Blanik, Unless you are being sarcastic towards AZ, if you actually read the first post, you'd have realized, that AZ either didn't a) Read it... or b) Understand it... You don't need to "CHERCHE" Beyond your nose to see he used the exact same link I just finished telling folks is a good read. LOL!!! just pullin yer chain... not meant to diss But me thinks AZ needs to pull that ole foot out, and not just post for the sake of posting.

The title I used "What on God’s earth is a “Rancio Profile” was to get folks attention to the topic... it wasn't me askin what it is... IF Y'all Read My post... you'd come to realize that I know what the F_k I'm talking about ... I was explaining in rather detailed terms and descriptions... Now Go Back and have a READ... if Anyone still can't figure it out... ask... I am willing to explain again.

[Azframer]

If you hadn't posted the whole thing like it was all a quote from other people we would better understand what you wrote and what you were quoting.
Edit= Blanik not sure if that was your quote and I didn't mean to steal it but I do remember reading it somewhere.

[blanikdog]

Wasn't my quote azframer, I was simply agreeing with you and applauding your passing on the reality of our forum. Thanks.

[Liquid_Luv]

If you hadn't posted the whole thing like it was all a quote from other people we would better understand what you wrote and what you were quoting.
Edit= Blanik not sure if that was your quote and I didn't mean to steal it but I do remember reading it somewhere.

Sorry AZ... it was a quote of my own post in a different thread... as it was starting to develope somewhat off topic and it is a strong topic on it's own for Aging & Flavoring... so here it is. I have tweeked it to make it an easier read. Hope it helps.

[Bagasso]

Hi L_L,

"Rancio" is a spanish word that means spoiled. When I read it in the article posted above "soured" kept coming to mind. Which reminded me of this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5548 that covers lactic souring in scotch and whiskies.

[blind drunk]

Good one Bagasso, the question I have is why does it take 30 years to show up in Scotch, like the link above suggests, and fifteen years for rum like another link states. I can't imagine that 60 abv anything can sour while it ages. Must be there at the beginning and shows up later during the aging process. This makes sense to me. Could also be some residual lactic bacteria present in the re used barrels that eventual emerge in the flavour profile of the likker, especially in the case of Scotch. Not sure what kind of barrels are used for rum aging.

bd

[Bagasso]

After reading around I am starting to have my doubts about the aging process. One of the things that I have read is that most red wines should be consumed within 5 years of their vintage. Now this is a product that is chemically more complex than our distillates and still most of them will start to loose flavor after only a handful of years.

REALITY: Although all wines change with age, very few wines noticeably improve beyond a few months and wine maturity does have its limits.

http://www.winepros.org/aftertaste/3-myths.htm

As far as the "Rancio" I also believe that its in there from the start and if aging distillate is like wine that after 5 or so years you start loosing flavors then maybe this is what allows once coverd up flavors in the young scotch or rum to become more noticable.

[WalkingWolf]

OK, here I go again... seems like I just can't keep my mouth shut and stop pissin folks off... but if ya all can't read and/ or understand what ya just read... yer gonna stick yer foot in that ole mouth again

Blanik, Unless you are being sarcastic towards AZ, if you actually read the first post, you'd have realized, that AZ either didn't a) Read it... or b) Understand it... You don't need to "CHERCHE" Beyond your nose to see he used the exact same link I just finished telling folks is a good read. LOL!!! just pullin yer chain... not meant to diss But me thinks AZ needs to pull that ole foot out, and not just post for the sake of posting.

The title I used "What on God’s earth is a “Rancio Profile” was to get folks attention to the topic... it wasn't me askin what it is... IF Y'all Read My post... you'd come to realize that I know what the F_k I'm talking about ... I was explaining in rather detailed terms and descriptions... Now Go Back and have a READ... if Anyone still can't figure it out... ask... I am willing to explain again.

Liquid Luv -
You seem to have a far greater understanding of the processes for which you are discussing than the average user. I count myself in the number that have learned from what you have posted. You're "thought-provoking" attempt is simply another thread in which to show your wealth of knowledge. This is less than becoming of someone with an understanding and working knowledge as that you possess. I have noticed an aristicratic, and at times sarcastic, air about your post from the time you got here and I'm not sure how well that will be received by the general readership over the long haul. It's not your intellect so much as your delivery. As I've previously stated, I have learned a great deal from what you have posted thus far and would like to continue -- I'm simply pointing out my observations on the "less-than-desirable" feedback that appeared to have had thought-provoking tendencies for you as well.

good stillin

[blanikdog]

... Blanik, Unless you are being sarcastic towards AZ, if you actually read the first post, you'd have realized, that AZ either didn't a) Read it... or b) Understand it... You don't need to "CHERCHE" Beyond your nose to see he used the exact same link I just finished telling folks is a good read. LOL!!! just pullin yer chain... not meant to diss But me thinks AZ needs to pull that ole foot out, and not just post for the sake of posting. ...

Not being sarcastic. L _ L. If I were, you and Azframer would know as it would be perfectly plain. I save sarcasm for the 'special' people in my life.

[blind drunk]

I always thought that scotch whiskey production did not include any bacteria involvement - I was wrong. Check this out - hope it's OK to cite an abstract in full -

The Effect of Lactic Acid Bacteria on Congener Composition and Sensory Characteristics of Scotch Malt Whisky
Nicholas R. Wilson

ABSTRACT
Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) comprise a major part of the natural microflora of Scotch malt whisky fermentations, due to their tolerance of heat and elevated ethanol concentrations. In this study, their effects on the organoleptic properties of the spirit were investigated. Samples from late (>70 h) fermentations were obtained from whisky distilleries throughout Scotland. Bacteria of varying colony morphologies were isolated, purified, and characterised initially using random amplification of polymorphic DNA – polymerase chain reaction (RAPD-PCR). Isolates with differing RAPD patterns were retained and their ability to produce 10-hydroxystearic acid (10- HSA) from oleic acid was determined qualitatively using high performance thin layer chromatography. 10-HSA is the primary precursor of γ-dodecalactone, which is an important flavour compound in malt whisky responsible for the desirable “sweet and fatty” characteristic of the spirit. Thirty-nine isolates had strong or weak bioconversion activity while 89 isolates displayed negligible or no activity. Forty-two strains, largely from the former category were identified using partial 16S rRNA gene sequences. Lactobacillus paracasei was the predominant organism but L. brevis and L. plantarum were also identified. These 42 strains were assessed for their bioconversion capacity in a semi-quantitative manner using gas chromatography – mass spectrometry (GC-MS) and five isolates, comprising L. brevis, two strains of L. paracasei, and two strains of L. plantarum were selected for further study. These isolates were used in laboratory–scale, simulated whisky fermentations with Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Fermentation liquor (wash) was distilled to produce new-make spirit, which was analysed organoleptically by quantitative descriptive analysis. Spirit from fermentations inoculated with L. brevis had an enhanced “sweet” character, probably due to the higher γ-lactone levels detected in this whisky, as well as increased “sulfury” and “meaty” notes, most likely due to yeast autolysis. L. paracasei enhanced the “green/grassy” notes of new-make spirit, while also adding a “sour” aroma probably resulting from the elevated levels of lactic acid detected in the wash. Like L. paracasei, L. plantarum increased the “green/grassy” notes of new-make spirit. Further fermentations were carried out in which L. brevis, one strain of L. paracasei, and one strain of L. plantarum were inoculated into fermentations with yeast comprising 90% S. cerevisiae and 10% Torulaspora delbrueckii, which had been
isolated previously from Scotch whisky fermentations and shown to enhance the concentration of γ-lactones in new-make spirit. Co-fermentation of L. brevis with S. cerevisiae and T. delbrueckii resulted in a spirit with increased “green/grassy”, “sweet”, and “oily” notes, with decreases in “sulfury” and “meaty” observed when the wild yeast was not present. Spirit derived from co-fermentations of L. paracasei and T. delbrueckii exhibited increased “soapy”, “sour”, and “sulfury” notes. Co- fermentation of L. plantarum and T. delbrueckii caused increases in “green/grassy”, “soapy”, “sweet”, “sour”, and “sulfury” notes. Increased concentrations of γ-lactones were detected in new-make spirit distilled from fermentations inoculated with L. brevis, presumably contributing to the enhanced sweet character of this spirit. This effect was further amplified by the inclusion of T. delbrueckii in the laboratory–scale fermentations.

[Liquid_Luv]

Liquid Luv -
You seem to have a far greater understanding of the processes for which you are discussing than the average user. I count myself in the number that have learned from what you have posted. You're "thought-provoking" attempt is simply another thread in which to show your wealth of knowledge. This is less than becoming of someone with an understanding and working knowledge as that you possess. I have noticed an aristicratic, and at times sarcastic, air about your post from the time you got here and I'm not sure how well that will be received by the general readership over the long haul. It's not your intellect so much as your delivery. As I've previously stated, I have learned a great deal from what you have posted thus far and would like to continue -- I'm simply pointing out my observations on the "less-than-desirable" feedback that appeared to have had thought-provoking tendencies for you as well.

good stillin

WalkingWolf... I sincerely appreciate your Direct, No Nonsense Approach... I sometimes need to be reminded to level my approach when dealing with the masses [the general readership]... It amazes me how you seem to know so much about me in such a short timeframe...

Please understand, without meaning to offend... I make a concerted effort not to post B_ll-Sh_t, Blaaa...bla, humor, racist, political or religious content... I strictly share experiences based on fact, or I question the questionable, or I attempt to incite others to try things and share their results [so I get more data with less effort]... to everyone's benefit.

The fact that I take my time to do this is for the love of the hobby [a very pleasurable pass time for myself]... I am not overly concerned how the masses see me, or react to my posts... actually couldn't care less... I sleep very well at night; have more friends and family than I can spend enough time with; have nobody to answer to, ever... So, yes, in my mind, I can be aristocratic and sarcastic whenever I so desire, whether becoming of myself or not. To many I may seem like a real A_Hole... and that's fine. If they take the time to follow my posts and benefit from any of them, great.

I have no need to be liked or to make new friends... if it happens as a consequence... all the better... it is nice to befriend others with common interests, however a primary interest of mine is to associate with intellects, dignitaries, and lawmakers [especially those that could make changes to the laws that affect me and my interests in a positive way].

I do not aspire to become a backwoods hillbilly bootlegger, although I enjoy the folklore and truly appreciate the contributions they've made over the course of history. I strive to perfect all that is within my reach. I could afford to buy any of the World's Finest Spirits by the case... stillin for me, is just something I enjoy [I don't do it to have cheap booze to lose myself in], and by my competitive nature, is something I strive to do better than everyone else... just because I want to... doesn't mean it'll happen... just that I have a far distant target to aim at.

Now if we can please get back on topic...

Cheers!

[Tater]

Was thinking most rums and scotchs as well as sherry and some brandy's are aged in 2nd hand bourbon barrels.Reckon that may shorten the time line on the 30 year aging ?

[LWTCS]

Was thinking most rums and scotchs as well as sherry and some brandy's are aged in 2nd hand bourbon barrels.Reckon that may shorten the time line on the 30 year aging ?

My theory in a way too Tater.

A rancio infected barrel can carry over and help promote the profile to a relatively younger likker.

Just thinking and hoping out loud.

I'm also wondering if a barrel of wine is best sacrificed to an excellerated rancio process for the sake of repurposing for rum (or the like)?

[Dnderhead]

I question this, as rancio in spirits is oxidation,not something added.
the first 3 years of aging the most changes take place.
in about a decade it starts slowing down .
after about 2 decades woody taste takes over and its hard to tell one whiskey from another.
after 3 decades,whisky can start to loose all original flavors.and all taste the same.
at this time it starts to become "rancio" or over oxidized and have a "cognac" sort of flavor.
as for this happening in the bottle with modern seals it wont,but with old bottles it could if corks
dry out and lets air in.

[Dnderhead]

further research into "rancio" profile in whisky,
whiskey is placed into barrels at 70-80% over a period of time, the alcohol and water both evaporate off
more alcohol than water will evaporates so after 30-50 years the alcohol is down to about 40%. the flavors
increase as there is less liquid, now if this was a barrel that was forgotten somewhere in the archives
it would not have been topped up.therefore it would have been exposed to more air/o2.there by it becomes
oxadized or"ranco"
now,this at least in what iv read was it takes on a "soured" taste or at least that is what is described by most.
I believe that can replicated .

[blind drunk]

now,this at least in what iv read was it takes on a "soured" taste or at least that is what is described by most.
I believe that can replicated .

How do you think it can be replicated?

bd

[Dnderhead]

At one time we were playing with alcohol, trying to "speed" age. never found anything that really worked.
but passing a electrical curent threw alcohol does change it. seemed to take on a soured flavor.
I never did any more with this.this was 12-14v dc that I used.

[Dnderhead]

OK,who is daring? with more research, the bottles of scotch with rancio also had some sort of "mildew"
or mold growing in them.this settles to bottom of bottle.this only happens in 40+year old,so it mite
be that long aging,leads to oxidized alcohol in witch lets the mold grow? none of the distilleries will
own up to this.

[LWTCS]

Ya ain't got nothin hid away Dunder?

How many tasted the rancio note I wonder?

[blind drunk]

OK,who is daring?

You first

bd

[Dnderhead]

iv got some that is somewhere around 20 years but will never see 40+. I dont thank many tasted rancio
as most cant afford it, it also stated all tasted the same.similar to cognac maybe with a hint of old rum.
Ill never know.

[LWTCS]

I here Pusser's has that rancio profile.
Ima spend for it soon just to see what all the hubub is about.

Few was my neighbor Dunder, we could see bout this mold together..........you first

[MuleKicker]

How many tasted the rancio note I wonder?

How many would know it if they did. That is where a professional taster would come in handy. You can explain away a taste, but it is impossible to "know" that another person knows what you are describing.

20 yrs dnder? That is impressive. Also, That has to be some strain of mildew to live in 45+ % alcohol.

[Dnderhead]

Ya i was wondering about that also but its seems that molds will grow on/in alcohol if there is some sugar or other food
for it to do so.it seems that molds are grown in/on alcohol/sugar solutions as this will kill bacteria but let molds grow.

[Liquid_Luv]

Wow, the last few posts have really brought up some good and thought provoking points... I will attempt to answer to those upon which I have some credible reference... to others, I will add my thoughts upon which I hope we could further bounce around our ideas, and perhaps come up with some experiments.

But before we get to this, I would just like to share the following data I have on the chemical analysis involved in the Rancio Profile... The following speaks more to what is involved with the tastes perceived by the human mouth, the chemicals involved, that are confirmed to exist in all rancio profiles, and a little explanation of Ketones in general.

I would also like to encourage folks just joining in on this thread, as well as some that may have been following along, to just review my original post to this thread, now, and from time to time just to refresh how it all started out...


*****

More research on "Rancio Profile" Notes from http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15058007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow in my earlier post...


These ketones are in part responsible for the desirable and complex characteristic called 'rancio charentais' or 'Cognac rancio' which is found in grape brandies aged in oak barrels for several decades. The ketones 2-heptanone, 2-nonanone, 2-undecanone and 2-tridecanone form through β-oxidation and decarboxylation of long-chain fatty acids originating from yeast metabolism. The concentrations of these ketones increased with Cognac age classification in the 42 brandies analysed, and 2-heptanone was present at the highest concentration in most samples. The average concentrations and rates of formation decreased with increasing chain length. Total concentrations ranged from 21 to 328 μg l-1. The esters propyl octanoate and ethyl octanoate followed the same trend as the methylketones and appear to play an additional role in the formation of the rancio character.


2-Heptanone, or methyl n-amyl ketone
Odor: fruity, spicy, cinnamon-like, banana-like [green banana], Cheese, with a creamy nuance.
Flavor: Banana [green],Cheese, fruity, coconut, waxy.
Flavor Use: Baked goods, Fats, Oils, Soft candy.

Taste Description:
at 20.00 ppm. Cheese, fruity, coconut, waxy, green



2-Nonanone, or methyl heptyl ketone
Odor: fresh sweet, weedy, earthy, herbal, slightly fatty, Creamy,Cheesy, coconut.
Flavor: Fruity, Cheesy
Flavor Use: Blue Cheese, Milk, Cream, Butter, Cooked Meat Flavors, Roasted Nut Flavors, Fruit Flavors and Tea.

2-Undecanone, or methyl nonyl ketone
Odor: A rose, citrus, waxy fruity creamy fatty orris floral, fatty pineapple nuances.
Flavor: Waxy, fruity with creamy cheese like notes
Flavor Use:Used in dairy and coconut flavors.

2-tridecanone , or methyl undecyl ketone
Odor: A fatty, herbaceous, earthy aroma, mushroom, coconut, mild chicken fat nuance.
Flavor: Fatty and earthy with a fatty mouthfeel and with a dairy, ketonic and cheesy nuance.
Flavor Use: Used in milk, coconut, dairy and nut flavors.


ethyl octanoate, an Ester Fusel Oil
Odor:fruity wine, waxy sweet apricot, banana, brandy, floral pear, musty, pineapple and fruity with a creamy, dairy nuance.
Flavor: Sweet, Soapy, waxy, fruity, Apple and pineapple with creamy, fatty, mushroom and cognac notes.

propyl octanoate, sorry... not enough info on this one.



Interesting Notes:

A] Scientific fact has proven that the sugar naturally occurring in all fruits, Fructose, is a ketone.

B] According to the research reported in the article above, the concentrations of the ketones specifically identified as those responsible for the "Rancio Profile", increased with Cognac age classification in the 42 brandies analyzed.

C] According to the research reported in the article below, the formation of the most dominant compounds occurring in beverages depend more on the yeast selected than the raw materials used in fermentation.

D] Commonly used yeast in wines and the one used in the experiment... Saccharomyces cerevisiae






Formation and Occurrence of Flavor Compounds in Wine and Distilled Alcoholic Beverages
http://ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/1/84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Lalli Nykänen 1
1 Department of Research Laboratories of the Finnish State Alcohol Company, Alko, Ltd., POB 350, SF-00101 Helsinki 10, Finland.


The most probable mechanisms involved in the formation of carbonyl compounds, fusel alcohols, fatty acid esters, and free fatty acids by yeast in fermentation are discussed. Isopentyl alcohol, phenethyl alcohol, and their acetates in addition to the ethyl esters from hexanoate to laurate formed by different yeasts in sugar fermentation were determined. The bivariate distributions of the concentrations indicate that the mutual relationships of the compounds depend significantly on the yeast used and on the capacity of the yeast to produce alcohols and esters. The wine yeast used in this work produced smaller amounts of ethyl esters of fatty acids from acetic acid to octanoic acid under aerobic fermentation conditions than under strictly anaerobic conditions; on the other hand, ethyl laurate and ethyl 9-hexadecenoate were formed more abundantly in anaerobic conditions. Furthermore, qualitatively-similar flavor compositions were obtained in a Spanish sherry and a Finnish berry wine of sherry type. Hence, the formation of the most dominant compounds occurring in beverages depend more on the yeast selected than the raw materials used in fermentation.

[Liquid_Luv]

OK, so now we know what's in it chemically speaking of course [the specific Ketones and Esters]... and we have all kinds of taste descriptions, yet as a few have wisely inquired... who knows if they've actually tasted a real Rancio Profile... and yes, it gets quite expensive to educate your tasters if buying the right Cognacs and Whiskies and Rums that are renowned for having the coveted profile...

So, just getting back to my original post... go out and get your hands on the cheapest bottle of Madeira Wine... the cheapest bottle of real Balsamic Vinegar, and a bottle of light Sushi Soy Sauce [Kikoman light is the best for comparison if you can get it]... start with the Soy Sauce, taste a teaspoon worth... swish it around in your mouth, all the way to the back... spit it out, suck in some air... taste it... RINSE with water and repeat with the Balsamic Vinegar... then the Madeira Wine... if you have a few $$$ you could part with, do the same with some Pussers Red... and if you have deeper pockets, get a bottle of 25 year old Macallan Single Malt Scotch Whiskey [It's the Bomb!!!]... it would suffice to just sample the first three to get the point and keep the several hundred extra $$$ in your pocket.

You should now be able to easily identify the taste.

Sorry, out of time for the moment... I'll come back with more on some very good points that have been brought up... and I would luv to address them... back shortly!
Cheers!