Using calcium carbonate to mitigate off flavors

[Norwest]

Hi,

I just cut and blended a cherry brandy batch I ran on my flute under full reflux. I used all fractions from 130 ABV down to about 90 ABV when the fractions started getting bitter and showed some oily scum on the surface. The fractions were aired out for a week and had been stored sealed for a couple of months. The final blended product needs some help. There is a slight vinegar odor and some bitterness. A book I have on making brandy mentioned the use of calcium carbonate either in the mash prior to distillation or in the final product to mitigate some taste/smell flaws. Anyone have experience using calcium carbonate for this purpose? Any other suggestions short of oak aging or redistilling?

Thanks,

Norwest

[Ayay]

I think you mean activated carbon for removing off tastes. Activated carbon is a black carbon similar to charcoal...in fact it is charcoal that has been 'foamed up' by a special process. It absorbs smells and flavours very well.

If the stillin and cutting are done right, then ageing will make a good product better. Ageing cannot always make a bad product good.

[Norwest]

Hi Ayay,

No I meant calcium carbonate. With a bit more searching on the site I found this page http://homedistiller.org/distill/dtw/strip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which explains the use of sodium bicarb or calcium carb to covert ethyl acetate to ethanol via alkalization. The ethyl acetate resulting from some acetic acid production in the ferment (vinegar). I wanted to start by removing the slight vinegar (ethyl acetate) smell and see where I am at. I would use charcoal as the last resort as it would likely remove much of the fruit taste in the brandy.

Thank you,

Thomas

[ipee7ABV]

if you put that in there and run it again your going to loose flavor.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p6760573
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... e#p6987026

[Ayay]

Hey Norwest, I tried adding sodium carbonate to high-proof feints (1 tablespoon/gallon) and it gave me sharper cuts and the possible conversion of heads components into hearts. This I believe is the purpose, and the product was very bland tastewise!

Reading the links that you and ipee provided leaves me as confused as the first time I read them. I have only tried the sodium carbonate twice and don't bother with it any more, but confess to soaking with activated carbon on occasion at the rate of 1 tablespoon/litre of 95% for a week, to remove off tastes. It's not carbon filtering as such, it's soaked and then the liquid is siphoned off leaving behind all the carbon and sediments.

[ipee7ABV]

Hey Norwest, I tried adding sodium carbonate to high-proof feints (1 tablespoon/gallon) and it gave me sharper cuts and the possible conversion of heads components into hearts. This I believe is the purpose, and the product was very bland tastewise!

Reading the links that you and ipee provided leaves me as confused as the first time I read them. I have only tried the sodium carbonate twice and don't bother with it any more, but confess to soaking with activated carbon on occasion at the rate of 1 tablespoon/litre of 95% for a week, to remove off tastes. It's not carbon filtering as such, it's soaked and then the liquid is siphoned off leaving behind all the carbon and sediments.

my finding are about the same as yours. i also no longer keep tales or heads and add sodium carbonate. now i add my heads/tales to my next run. i also triple my 4 shots cut. from 150ml to 500ml

[Prairiepiss]

I used all fractions from 130 ABV down to about 90 ABV when the fractions started getting bitter and showed some oily scum on the surface. The fractions were aired out for a week and had been stored sealed for a couple of months. The final blended product needs some help.

I'm assuming you ment proof not ABV? And how did you determine when to make the cuts?

You also said any help short of oaking or redistilling? If your going to use the product your asking about you would need to redistill it anyway. For it to work correct.

It sounds as if you made bad cuts. And you have two options. The two that you didn't want us to tell you. But that's you best options. Either put it on oak for a good long time. Or dilution and run it again making better cuts. This will loose flavors. While the oak will change the flavors you do have.

Carbon filtering will just remove flavors. Both good and bad. And not one more then the other.

Charcoal filtering would give you a different outcome completely. And probably not what you want to do at all.

[Norwest]

Hi PP,

Yes my goof I meant proof. I collected 1/2 pint fractions and I noted the proof for each fraction using a proof hydrometer in my parrot. I made my cuts by smelling and tasting the fractions (both undiluted and diluted to around 80 proof). In my initial post I noted the proof of the fractions I cut based on taste/smell. I tasted/smelled the fractions seveal times over several weeks before I made the cuts so I feel I made the best cuts possible. Although the taste of the current product is OK it is not as smooth or clean as the several commercial clear cherry brandies I have in my liquor cabinet. I am not sure how much change/improvement that will occur with aging in glass which is why I am considering adding calcium carbonate and filtering it out without subsequent distilling. I have a batch of grape brandy I ran once on my flute in pot still mode which resulted in bad smearing. I have recombined the fractions and will add calcium carbonate before re-distilling. I expect that this will end up as grape vodka as has been noted in some of the replies.

Norwest

[junkyard dawg]

To be completely non technical about this....

The whole alkaline treatment thing kinda sucks. I wouldn't do that to a distillate I cared about.

I'm a bit confused by running a cherry brandy under full reflux? What was the purpose?

I have also had apple brandy and plum brandy that both required over a year of aging to transform from sharp and hot and not very fruity into sublime spirits that tasted like the fruit they came from, only at 100 proof. I'd cork it up in a bottle with little airspace and good cork and put it away for a while. Let it be...

and start the next project. Keep in mind that the magic is made in the ferment. IMHO cuts are the easy part...

[Norwest]

JD,

Thanks for the feedback. I ran the cherry brandy on my plated reflux flute in full reflux based on my experience running a previous batch of grape brandy in pot still mode. The grape brandy had significant smearing and I had to recombine all the fractions and will have to redistill. Having to rerun brandy on a flute defeats the purpose of using a flute in my opinion. I have also received feeedback from several on the board to run slow in full reflux to get the best separation. I will take your suggestion and age in glass as you suggested. I am optimistic based on your experience. My cherry brandy does have good fruit taste but also some sharpness and a slight bit of tannic bitterness (from the cherry pits perhaps). I do have a Gibbs 1 gallon toasted oak keg but fear it might overpower the subtle fruit flavors. Also I think I will only end up with about 3/4 gallons of 100 proof but I could add some grape neutral to top off. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Norwest

[junkyard dawg]

I think we could talk for hours about this... You have a lot of things going on that all can have an effect on the brandy.

Things to ponder include the differences between doing one run and a low wine run and spirit run...

The subject of smearing... Its a good thing in my book. Its not really smearing of cuts, its just the way things are. (stoopid physics )

Oak? I dunno 'bout doing that to either the cherry brandy or the barrel. Might wanna try a little oak chips or cubes in a bottle if you want to see how it works. I don't see that combo working great tho. But I don't have any experience with Cherry Brandy.

It sounds like you are doing great to me. If you look at all the tricks and techniques that a winemaker uses to tweak the flavor of a wine, then add on the additional complexity of distilling and making cuts. You see Brandy gets complicated quickly. If you got a good product as a relative brandy novice? Well, way to go! It does sound like it just needs some time to settle down. I can't tell you how much improvement my brandies had after a year of age... its like night and day. I suspect yours will do the same. And I wouldn't cut it or stretch it with any thing. You made a pure cherry brandy... thats a work of art and science.

If you can remember, update this thread when you try that brandy later... I'd love to hear how it comes out when it grows up...