New episode for Myth-Busters "leaking still"

[fatman]

Was told to quit muddying someone elses posts so here goes!

Some one had posted that a leak in a still within a closed room/house, could fill the room with ETHANOL VAPOR and go KABOOM?

And i posted:

So if we have said leak and ethanol vapor was to escape into the air of a room, does that escaped vapor not condense back to a liquid at anything below its saturation point which is any temp below its boiling point of 173?

Iknow there are other alcohols in the wash that are being vaporized too, but they would condense below saturation point too in the event of a leak?

Iguess what my hard can't grasp is how this flamamble vapor can exist in a closed room with out condensing back to its liquid state unless the room was over 173 degrees? i know the liquid is bad and will burn!

And someone eluded to that alcohol vapors are heavier than air so they colect near the floor, but my question is how is there a vapor present when the room is much cooler than the boiling point of the liquid? I don't get it?
I get that in a steam sauna you saturate the air to the point that it almost rains.

Since i is from the show me state, this here is the plan, 8' x 8' x 8' OSB plywood box, 1 gallon of 50 proof tails in an old pressure cooker with the stopper removed, put it on a sterno burner, and put all this together in a the closed box in the middle of a field and see what happens. Kinda of a redneck Myth busters episode!

[Usge]

I"m not a scientist....but something combustible/volatile can give off dangerous fumes even in liquid form. (ie., gasoline). 25% (50 proof) is mostly water. The vapor that comes off that 25% when you are stilling...at 80% or better...is much more volatile than the liquid itself...even if it condenses back to a liquid.

We did have a member sometime back who burned himself badly under such conditions. There wasn't an explosion per se. He said...he didn't see the flames. But, the entire air around him was on fire. He noticed the plastic utensils were melting and the skin was peeling back in sheets off his arms/hands. That was the first he knew what had happened. He recovered from his ordeal, but it was a long road. His kitchen was a burned out mess. We dont' say these for no reason. For a nice explosion...all you need to add is a little pressure (ie., like not knowing what you are doing and putting a valve somewhere you aren't supposed to or closing the system off to the atmosphere). ONce the vapor builds up inside without being able to get out....it pressurizes...builds up heat...and explodes. It's basically a bomb at that point. And it can, will, and has taken out entire rooms before. Always check your system..and parts before assembly. PARTICULARLY if you keep them outside. A rat or etc., could have crawled up in it or somehow clogged it. If you use packing material, make sure you can still breath easily through the tube. Or you are just asking to discover what some already painfully have.

[Prairiepiss]

The vapors won't just drop out of the air condensed into rain. The air needs to be so saturated with the liquid that it can't hold any more. Just as rain is formed. Water is evaporated off bodies if water. It stays as a vapor until the point there is so much in the air it can hardly take anymore. Then it starts clinging to dust particles or what ever freezing and falling. So basically your vapors you are putting into the air will stay suspended until which time the air is so saturated it can't hold it any longer. Or those vapors hit a cooler surface like a glass of ice water.


If the vapors would just turn back to liquid when it hit the air. We wouldn't need product condensers on our stills. And we would have to stress the importance of knocking down all vapors produced by a still.

[fatman]

I understand you don't want to make a bomb by not having a vent or some type of pop off valve so you don't over pressure the boiler.

And i also understand how rain happens/forms, and i understand dew point, why your car windshield gets wet in the morning, but how dang much alcohol vapor would you have to let escape to saturate the air enough till it would burn?

Im sure it depends on room size and concentration of escaping vapor, i think it would have to be abig leak and pretty noticable?

Don't get me wrong, Not trying to say a leak is a good thing!

[Prairiepiss]

It doesn't take as much as you would think.

Have you ever taken and poured a little gas on a fire pit to light it? When you throes a match on it. WHOOOOOOOPH. Big fire ball. From just a small amount of gas. You could do the same with high ABV alcohol. You just wouldn't see as much of the flame as with gas. Harder to see alcohol flames. The vapors form a pocket collecting in low areas.

[Usge]

Glad you understand fatman. We "have" to be overly zealous and cautious....particularly so as not to give any new visitors just looking for information the wrong idea. We try and be proactive in that regard and head things off at the pass.

[maheel]

do a just water boil and just turn off your water cooling for a min and see how much vapor "pours" out

depending on your still design and power it sure can be a lot...

my "new" 3600w shotgun stripper makes a massive amount of steam
i reckon it could easily pump out enough ALC vapour to potentially get to a dangerous explosive situation point

even a 1/2" liebig will throw out a big vapor stream with high heat

[HookLine]

fatman

If what you were saying was true, then natural unforced evaporation could never happen. Rain puddles would never dry out when the rain stopped, the clouds cleared, and the sun came back out.

But they do.

[fatman]

I still think it would have to be a very large and noticeable leak in a still to saturate the air enough with alcohol vapor in a closed room so as to make the room go boom?
thankfully my junk don't leak!!

[Durace11]

A very large noticable leak or a small one that runs for a long time or someone getting up to use the bathroom and leaving the still on autopilot for 5 min or if the leak is right over the heat source then it doesn't have to be long or noticable. I'm sure there are people out there who have run a leaky still and either not noticed or have been outdoors with the wind in the right direction. But, when it does catch, it's not pretty...like that commercial operation that blew up a few months back, the guy closed the door to the still room and boom the whole other room he just left exploded and the roof came off the building or somethign to that effect.

[Hawk_]

one time I was running my mile hi for a whiskey. I ran in full reflux at first to collect fores and heads. Then I made the mistake of shutting the reflux off too fast. Vapor came off real quick and scared the hell out of me and my buddy. we shut the still down and turned the reflux back on like lightning. After that I learned to just slowly turn the reflux down. Damn that makes me shiver now.

[Usge]

There are a myriad of examples out there that already exist. Here is a post from one of our former members who had some experience with this that I dug out of the thread..Tell Us About Your Mistakes:

I posted before that I am kinda a stickler for never allowing air to mix with my spirits and now I remember why. I have actually had a bad accident with this extremely flammable stuff and if it hadn't been for a quick response with a big bag of flour I would have burned down an apartment complex. Man did I have a mess to clean up. It melted my cooling fan before I could salvage it. And I only looked away for a moment.
When this stuff hits the proper proportion of air to fuel it goes off like smokeless powder and burns so fast and clean it sounds like a shot. The resulting flames couldn't be seen on the stove or the counter top but it was burning and melting stuff suspended more than a foot above it such as measuring cups, plastic bowls, and funnels.

Luckily I only have a very small scar and an ear that buzzes when sounds get too loud from the accident. That nearly invisible blue flame will almost burn in your hand without burning your hand but.. It will remove skin as fast as a cutting torch if your are on the receiving side of it. I did end up with first and second degree burns over about 75% of my arms and all my face from the initial flash but I still have a hole in my ear drum from the residual infection and a small scar on my wrist to remind me.

That was 1983. I haven't used gas for distilling until recently and there is always a fire extinguisher around and I mean close. But I don't think it would help in the case of an incendiary flash like I experienced.

The source of ignition was a natural gas stove burner. The kitchen was small and poorly ventilated.
I had just built this latest and greatest version of a new coil because I was trying to reduce some back pressure and increase output. I had just turned 21 and had building these things for 5 years and I guess I felt like superman.
I was doing a doubling run so the stuff was probably near 90% ABV.
There was a small leak in the connection between the pot and the coil which allowed spirits to be vented in the air. There was a large surface area, thin walled, straight sided vase collecting spirits.

As soon as the vapor ran around the pot and got to the flame it went off. That is where I got the initial burns because of the flame front. The vapor doesn't have that much smell.

The open container ignited immediately and within a second destroyed itself and liquid spirits went flaming everywhere. I got the worst burn getting to the gas shutoff. I was more concerned about getting the gas off than my own safety. The liquid spirits heat and burn very fast. Once I got the gas off I grabbed the closest powdered substance I could find knowing that water would only spread the spirits. I always keep my flour and sugar in the fridge and I grabbed the flour and proceeded to throw flour on anything burning. Luckily I had a large bag. The flour smothers burning alcohol well enough.

I never considered myself injured bad enough to go to the doctor but after about three days The blisters on my face and head started peeling and I looked pretty bad. After two weeks I was healed up enough but I ended up with a bad ear infection that resulted in a fever and I had to go to the Dr. for that.

So in a nut shell it was improper testing of my apparatus, bad practice of using bad containers to collect in, and lack of safe conditions.
Three strikes.
My solution to almost all these conditions was alleviated in a short time afterwards. And now everything gets pressure checked for leaks. I don't even allow the smallest pin hole to escape repair.
I only collect in heavy, narrow mouthed containers.
There is always a dry powder extinguisher near at hand just in case.
And most of all there is always a lot of ventilation and moving air to prevent the accumulation of vapor in any one area.

I hope my precautions can be a guide for other.

This may end up the basis of a good safety and precaution guide.

It is a mistake on my part to think others would know the proper safety procedures. I know that most of the people I deal with from day to day are trained as part of their jobs. But up until my accident I had no training and did not understand the risks.

If that's not enough, just do a google search for things like "moonshine still explosion", etc...and read about how people's garage, apt, etc...blow up, burn up, etc. And pay attention to the fact that most of them never had any warning or clue it was about to happen (ie., like some big honkin' vapor leak they could see or smell or etc).

[frozenthunderbolt]

. . . though i would add to this that throwing flour on a fire is not a great idea - there are many recorded instances of mills and even bakeries BLOWING UP as flour particles in the air caught fire and spread fast.
No shit - flour is a fuel too - in the right como with air it also goes off explosively - MUCH better to use salt or backing soda if you want a home made powder extinguisher.

[rumbuff]

someone getting up to use the bathroom and leaving the still on autopilot for 5 min

Accidentally did that one, it hadn't warmed up yet, and I figured by how warm the coloum was I had probably 10 min, gone for 5 and opened the bathroom door to see vapour pouring out the end of my condenser! Ran into the kitchen taking the corner and my socks slid on the floor takin the corner, did the whole charlie brown wipe out into the kitchen! It's funny now, but I'm not making that mistake again. I say funny because I have an electric still, if that had've been gas i wouldn't have chanced it.

[Durace11]

someone getting up to use the bathroom and leaving the still on autopilot for 5 min

Accidentally did that one, it hadn't warmed up yet, and I figured by how warm the coloum was I had probably 10 min, gone for 5 and opened the bathroom door to see vapour pouring out the end of my condenser! Ran into the kitchen taking the corner and my socks slid on the floor takin the corner, did the whole charlie brown wipe out into the kitchen! It's funny now, but I'm not making that mistake again. I say funny because I have an electric still, if that had've been gas i wouldn't have chanced it.

I did the EXACT same thing, without the socks slipping wipeout, felt the column, went to work for #2, when the work was done I opened the door and I could smell the vapour in the air, ran into the kitchen and it was huffing pretty hard out the liebig and it was on a GAS STOVE top! So I shut it off & opened all the windows and doors for a few minutes and turned on the hood fan and waved a magizine around like a mad man. Then my heart slowed to a normal beat again so I fired it all back up and continued the run. Finished fine but I still consider that my first and only "get out of jail free" card. Will not make that mistake again ever...ever ever ever!

[HookLine]

Flour is highly explosive as a fine dust in the air.

So is custard powder.

[Prairiepiss]

Flour is highly explosive as a fine dust in the air.

So is custard powder.

Non dairy powdered coffee creamer can be added to that list.

[Usge]

I guess cat litter too.

[sandsquirt]

I think what fatman was missing in his explosion theory is that the vapors are far more flammable than the liquid. A small container of fuel or alcohol will only burn off the vapors on top causing a slow burn. A leak in a still will cause only vapors. Fill an area with vapors and you get a fast burn "boom"! Also heat makes vapors quicker. That's why the container of fuel will continue to burn off at a slower rate instead of flash out.
Just be safe!