Hello and first experiments with bentonite for fining

[belialNZ]

Hi all!

I'm new to home distilling, and having a lot of fun with it. Using a 25 litre reflux still.

Finished my first distillation, which went very well, however, wished to share the results of an "experiment" in the fining.

In my country the standard product for fining was Still Spirits "Turbo Clear", however, several friends of mine are Vegans, and using a product based on fish products was not going to produce a product I could share.

So I did a bit of research, and discovered that bentonite is often used in the clearing of wines... I wasn't able to find many specifics, other than with wine, 3 ts mixed with water and then stirred into the product was recommended on one site.

I tried this out, and didn't see a very good result, and ended up sprinkling another 3 ts over the top of the wash.

After 24 hours, it had cleared to an equivalent level to the comparison wash using Turbo Clear.

I realise most people here will not have the need to ensure their product is vegan friendly, however, if you do, bentonite seems to be a very effective method, and is very cheap!

Next experiment will be to make soya milk based Irish Cream for my close friends, in the meantime I will enjoy my first batch of whiskey and irish cream, vodka and kahlua.

Making my own booze is FUN!

[modul8]

hi belialNZ and welcome

I couldn't go a day without eating meat so I have no idea what Vegans can have but I have heard some of the experienced boys around here use some egg white carefully stirred into the wash.

Maybe even try a sugar wash with bakers or distillers yeast. I use them and don't bother with the clearing. (Just let it settle)
As you have probably read alot of people say the turbos give a few off flavours if pushed to the limit shown on the pack.

[belialNZ]

Thanks modul8, well, it was my first wash (I split it into 2 and experimented with the bentonite on half of it).

Vegans are like.. uber vegetarians... no animal products at all (including eggs). All the fining products at the brew shop involved either gelatine (derived from animal bones), or isinglass (fish scales), or chitosan (from shellfish). However I was actually quite impressed by the effect of the bentonite... I have some in the whiskey I have soaking, as it attracts otherwise non visible proteins and takes them out... I'm hoping (probably going to be wrong) that it improves the final result.

However, I have to admit there was a few... "flavours", the vodka and Kahlua turned out great, but the whiskey still has a whiff to it (a bit yeasty?).

My second wash is using dextrose instead of the still spirits turbo sugar product, and I will be clearing the entire wash using bentonite, still using a turbo yeast however. Will be interesting to see the difference in the final result. Half the fun of this so far is all the possibilities I'm seeing for experimentation!

I have 2 litres of 40% alcohol soaking with "Jack Daniels barrel soakers", I suspect I will be letting them sit for a long time because I'm not exactly short on booze even after just the 1 run. I would be very happy if I can get a whiskey/bourbon close to JD's in flavour, and will be experimenting with different methods with that goal in site.

Ironically, I think I'm spending MORE money making my own booze purely because of the... attraction of making different products, and experimenting. When buying booze I'm just a JD's man.

[modul8]

Hehehe
Like I said i dont understand not eating meat, let alone animal products.
I would starve inside a week.

I know what you mean about spending more on booze than before. I now only seem to buy the better brands to do some comparative testing (later, when I actually have something worth comparing too..........) I never buy the 'generic' JD's, Jim Beam etc anymore. Don't think I have even drunk any for the last 6 months....

[belialNZ]

Hehehe
Like I said i dont understand not eating meat, let alone animal products.
I would starve inside a week.

hehehe, tell me about it, I think I'd starve rather quickly too. However, I respect my friends choices to my best ability. And I think I'd get a great kick out of succeeding in making vegan Irish Cream, they haven't been able to drink irish cream for 20 years...

Doesn't mean I ain't gonna eat meat tho

My second wash just measured at 990 on the hydrometer... time to do the fining

[modul8]

hehehe, tell me about it, I think I'd starve rather quickly too. However, I respect my friends choices to my best ability. And I think I'd get a great kick out of succeeding in making vegan Irish Cream, they haven't been able to drink irish cream for 20 years...

Doesn't mean I ain't gonna eat meat tho

My second wash just measured at 990 on the hydrometer... time to do the fining

Ahh, What they dont know wont hurt them
Kidding...

Good luck with the run[/quote]

[Aidas]

I have 2 litres of 40% alcohol soaking with "Jack Daniels barrel soakers", I suspect I will be letting them sit for a long time because I'm not exactly short on booze even after just the 1 run. I would be very happy if I can get a whiskey/bourbon close to JD's in flavour, and will be experimenting with different methods with that goal in site.

When buying booze I'm just a JD's man.

I used to be a Jack Daniels drinker too. Guess I still am, especially when I'm in airports.

However, I highly recommend making a UJSM (you'll find the recipe and instructions in the Tried and True Recipes section). You will soon be making a product that you WILL enjoy more than Jack. Believe me, I wouldn't have believed it a bit more than a year ago, but it's the truth.

Evidence the fact that I had some friends come over who brought a bottle of jack with them. I had a tumbler and politely declined a second. I brought out some of my bourbon (I just tweaked the UJSM method with a different grain bill) and offered a round. The 3/4 full bottle of Jack is still in the bar. Untouched since then.

Aidas

[belialNZ]

Thanks Aidas!!!

From a fellow JD's man, I'll definately look into that.

I just started, and over here there was a lot of information on making neutral washes with just sugar/water/yeast, but very little on anything else.

So, to be honest, I don't currently even know what you mean by a UJSM. So I will go and have a good read of the Tried and True forum and find out

I live in a warehouse in the city (run a pro-wrestling business), so the neutral wash technique was immediately easy, but... the more I think about it, I WANT to make a good bourbon/whiskey, so I'll be keen to experiment with other techniques.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll let you know how it works out.

[modul8]

UJSM = Uncle Jesse's simple Sour Mash

As Aidas said, very easy and VERY nice......

[belialNZ]

UJSM = Uncle Jesse's simple Sour Mash

As Aidas said, very easy and VERY nice......

Awesome, busy reading about it now, will definately try it!

[wineo]

The next time you use bentonite,you need to make a slurry.
Boil a pint of water,and while its still boiling,pour it in the blender,add 2-3 tbsp of bentonite,and blend it real good.Pour it in a jar,and put the lid on it.Use it the next day after shaking it up real good,and stir up whatever your clearing after you put it in.Dont use too much because it can rob flavor.It will work much better in a slurry.

[belialNZ]

Thank you wineo, I'll try that out with this new run.

[belialNZ]

Wineo

That worked wonders! Although I wish I hadn't just thrown out an old plastic blender, as it made the blender quite a mess.

Anyhow mixed up a large slurry as I had 2 25 litre washes to clear. Stirred the slurry into the washes, and after only 8 hours the washes where looking as clear as my first wash did after 24 hours (cleared with turbo-clear).

I have high expectations for the clarity of the liquid after 48 hours.

Going to be making a trip to the brew shop to get a pot still later, will have to grab more bentonite while I'm there.

[Uncle Jesse]

I've never bothered doing this. Is it mainly done to avoid suspended solids in the still? Seems like an added expense and hassle to me but perhaps I'm missing some real advantages. I normally let mine settle out and then rack off the top so I don't disturb too many of the solids which have gathered at the bottom of the fermenter.

[belialNZ]

Well its just a sugar wash, and was... very very cloudy.... this morning (about 12 hours of settling after bentonite added) I could just make out the bottom of the fermenter and the sediment.

My first batch had a rather strong yeasty taste, I'm going to throw out the stuff that isn't strongly flavoured (kahlua covered it up for instance). I probably should have stopped collecting a lot earlier, however it may be because the starting liquid was still a little cloudy, not sure...

This time I'm going to wait for it to clear more, and pay a lot more ettention to detecting the tails, and hope for a better result

Then I'm going to go shopping and start a UJSM, the more I read, the more I want to try it out. But my first washes have been turbo sugar and turbo yeast etc. as pushed on me by the store where I got my still.

Loving these forums, and looking forward to better and better product.


..Chuck..

[wineo]

When I told him how to do the bentonite,I didnt realize what he was using it on .It wont hurt anything,and may take away a small amount of flavor.
I never clear my corn or grain mashes,I just rack them in the boiler,and run it.I use bentonite in my wines,and put a small amount of it in at the start.When fermentation is done,it drops like a rock.I used to clear those turbo washes,but dont use them anymore.

[belialNZ]

Oh, no, it wasn't a UJSM, I can't start that till I've finished up this wash and gone shopping

I'm going to avoid any and all of those "turbo" products, might have to use brewers yeast as the brewcraft stores in NZ are pretty much entirely focused on turbo sugar, turbo yeast, pure sugar washes.

[wineo]

IVE been too quick on the trigger today.sorry about that.

[Uncle Jesse]

I figure as long as you're learning, do the UJSM and create something with flavor. It will teach you to distill by taste which I consider to be the right method and I believe most veterans here will agree with me.

Of course, some folks don't like whiskey so I can't say I'd blame them for heading in another direction. Were I a gin drinker things might have turned out rather different for me.

[HookLine]

I know you were after vegan stuff. But just want to say that I've been trying egg white to clear sugar washes lately. Works real well, at least as good as Turbo Clear, and a lot cheaper. One egg white per 25 litres, whisked until frothy, just poured on the surface of the wash, then wait 2 days.

I actually clear in two stages. First leave it for 4-5 days diacetyl rest and settling, then rack it off, which gets rid of most of the sediment. Then add the egg white, and rack off again two days later. Very effective.

It is surprising how much fine sediment is still left in the wash after the first stage, even though it looks clear. There is always quite a lot of sediment on the bottom at the end of the second stage.

[Uncle Jesse]

I recall once I was told a story about a guy whose grandpa used to make his own brandies.

First he'd add 3-4 egg whites, not whisked. Then he'd slowly add sugar to his grape wash or perhaps it was wine. At any rate the way I was told the story, once the egg whites floated he knew his specific gravity was where he wanted it and he'd scoop out the whites.

Truth or fiction? I can't say, never tried it.

[HookLine]

Interesting, UJ. Wonder what SG that equals?

[Husker]

I recall once I was told a story about a guy whose grandpa used to make his own brandies.

First he'd add 3-4 egg whites, not whisked. Then he'd slowly add sugar to his grape wash or perhaps it was wine. At any rate the way I was told the story, once the egg whites floated he knew his specific gravity was where he wanted it and he'd scoop out the whites.

Truth or fiction? I can't say, never tried it.

I am not sure about egg whites, but "white eggs" floating is used for SG reading for certain things. When I make my tanning solutions, I use 2 raw eggs. I use either KOH (which I measure), or I use white wood ash. With the wood ash, you simply add it to the water, until the eggs float (with a quarter sized dimple of the egg shell above the liquid). Then you have enough alkali in the water to pickle the skins.

I think the same would be for mash. As for what the SG is, I don't know, but it would not be hard to find that out with sugar water, and a hydrometer. I bet it is pretty close to 1.08.\

The problem I see with this, is: Is that egg sanitized?? I doubt it. Thus there "might" be some truth to the egg whites floating. That would be sanitary. Not sure if the egg whites would stay in one "clump" or if it would somewhat dissolve.

H.

[wineo]

The winemakers use egg whites quite a bit for a fineing agent,but Ive never tried it.I have some old recipes that call for egg whites,but It doesnt tell why.

[Skymeat]

belialNZ,
I believe chitosan is also found in several edible mushrooms (Matsutake). Might be a option.

[belialNZ]

Well, the results are in, finished distilling the bentonite cleared sugar washes, came out completely tasteless at 80%, didn't even consider using a carbon filter, so was a very different result to the first turbo wash.

I'm very pleased and have a nice collection of liquors and some rum and vodka for friends.

I even made a vegan Irish Cream for some friends, couldn't get the soy based milk mixture as thick as it should be, but it tastes right, I think they'll enjoy it.

Just set down my first UJSM fermenting, couldn't find a place to get cracked corn, but saw some discussion on using frozen corn, and thought I'd try it out and see. If I can find some cracked corn I'll set another one fermenting with that also. OH! and the brew shop gave me a free pot still attachment for my still too

[rumbaba]

Hehehe
Like I said i dont understand not eating meat, let alone animal products.
I would starve inside a week.

I know what you mean about spending more on booze than before. I now only seem to buy the better brands to do some comparative testing (later, when I actually have something worth comparing too..........) I never buy the 'generic' JD's, Jim Beam etc anymore. Don't think I have even drunk any for the last 6 months....

Too right modul8, once you have your own recipes right the bought stuff just does not cut it. I dont think I can think of a drink worse drink than Jim Beam (except for Spumante-cheap rotgut wine in the 80's).
While on the topic of Vegans; what they dont know won't hurt them. Unless its a medical allergy, most Vegans are just Vegans for thir beliefs, so if they cop some form of animal nutrient without knowing they would be none the wiser.

[pintoshine]

I have been watching this thread for a few days and find the problem interesting. I know about using the animal based gelatin based fining agent. I've seen these used by my friend Wilbert Best. He is an excellent wine maker. A while back he was complaining about the cost of gelatin going up.
I told him about my vegan consultants from Inda and that they used agar instead of gelatin for sweet treats.
He researched and found that in some of the Asian communities, agar is used in place of gelatin. He found some plain agar powder at the Asian grocery. His first try was a disaster. That stuff has so much gelling power it is rather amazing. Once he cut back on the portion about 1/4 the amount of animal gelatin, it worked suitably well.
I hope this is a source of an alternative fining agent.
Since seeing his experience with the agar, and learning a bit more about it myself, I have found it to be very good for growing bacteria and yeast cultures. I have gotten pretty good at isolating fungus from a single spoor.

Worst case would be that you could gum up a wash. I would be inclined to try a couple quart sized batches to see if it actually accomplish your goal.

Working with raw cane juice, I once set out to precipitate some of the organic solids such as starch granules and chlorophyll and leave pieces, out of the raw juice to clarify it before making syrup. I found that adding a very small amount of calcium oxide, CAL, or lime, all the same thing, and then adding a small amount of aluminum sulfate, a reaction of

Code: Select all

CaO + H2O = Ca(OH)2
Then Ca(OH)2+ Al2(SO4)3 = (CaSO4.2H2O)  + Al(OH)3
So in plain english:
Calcium Oxide and water is Calcium Hydroxide
Calcium Hydroxide and Aluminum Sulfate goes to Calcium Sulfate and Aluminum Hydroxide.

Both Aluminum hydroxide and calcium sulfate are nearly not water soluble. The calcium sulfate makes thousands of particals that are not charges and the aluminum hydroxide removes the charges from other suspended solids. The net result is called flocks. These flocks can be agitated and agitation causes them to stick together. All of a sudden there are curds and clear liquid. The flocks settle out in minutes leaving perfectly clear liquid and sludge in the bottom of the container. This combination of naturally occurring minerals, works magic on algae and many other things for clarifying water.
Here you can see and example of these two working together.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 68#6717568

[HookLine]

Calcium oxide (quicklime) is one form of lime. It is made by thermal decomposition of standard lime, (calcium carbonate).

Calcium carbonate (plain lime, or garden lime) is the most common form (it is the stuff you put on your garden).

If you want calcium oxide you have to ask for it specifically.

Agar is the main (and often only) component of culture medium in biological labs.