Slow ferments???

[fqu8847]

Hey everyone... let me ask this wealth of knowledge what could be wrong.
I start with birdwatchers recipe made up to 20 gallons. (It is about exactly what the original recipe calls for) except I use red star champagne yeast. Name escapes me now, but it is the neutral in the blue pack... has word wonderfully for about a year now in everything but the ferment time. It takes almost a month no matter how much I pitch!!! I have been doing it separate 5 gallon carboys, but recently stepped it up to a 22 gallon food grade bin. I have been keeping it in 65-73° rooms until recently and switched to a 80° ferment box I made. Doing 2 mashes at a time and letting them set for however long it takes me to get time to do them. That way I have some whenever I'm ready. But why does it take so long to ferment? I don't understand. I even started using more tomato paste, but with minimal improvement. Please give me some pointers...


Edit of the name... red star premier cuvee

[Prairiepiss]

Have you tried another recipe? Does it take long too? Have you tried another yeast? If not why not?

[Copper Thumper]

Sounds like the yeast strain.

Slow ferments always taste good though

[fqu8847]

In this instance mr. P. ... I have not. At least with this strain, although Remus rice is on the list to do a small batch with it. I was thinking maybe because it was champagne yeast???
I have used DADY, bakers yeast, and a turbo (once) all with quicker results. (Although not on this particular recipe) I have stuck with this one because of all the ones I have tried, this strain, (name finally!!!! Premier cuvee) has been the cleanest neutral for the price ($0.40/packet)
And I agree thumper that it sure does do me good working slow like that! But a month is a little sluggish I feel...

[Rastus]

i have used that yeast almost exclusively... it is tolerant of higher alcohol content to 18%

it ferments a nice clean flavor when i use it in my molasses wash using:

12 pounds cane sugar
5 pounds of Molasses
one packet of yeast
a few tablespoons of fermax....!!!! this stuff works great

about 12 gallons of water, with 25 % backset on multi generation

and that stuff runs in 6-7 days... i also use a car battery blanket to keep the wash at 80 - 85 f

other recipes are longer some run 3 weeks like my sweetfeed... but again that was before i discovered Fermax, or my battery heater

thats why i own more than one fermentation bucket stagger them out so it is less painful waiting


*** edited out the evidence i fell asleep on my return key

[cranky]

All my ferments take a month, I believe in the low and slow ferments with a rest and always thinking 3 months out. Do some research on the yeast you use or may want to use. More heat is not always the solution. I use 1118. It likes cool temps which is why I use it, my garage seldom gets over 65F even in the hottest months. I know 1118 will do just fine down to 45F but I've had it stop at 80F because it was too hot. Temps need to match the yeast, too hot and you get off flavors too cold and it is a slow ferment. I never worry about how long it takes, it finishes when it finishes and think trying to push a yeast to finish too fast is only going to effect the finished product in an undesirable way.

Play around with different yeasts, yeast is cheap, see if you find one that does what you want. Check PH levels, maybe you have a PH problem. If I think I may need to adjust PH I drop a couple seashells in the wash. Oyster shells are available at feed stores and will keep the PH balanced throughout the ferment.

There is a lot to read about fast and slow ferments so try to find those threads. Personally I feel I get a better product with slow so don't try to do fast.

[fqu8847]

Thanks cranky and rastus! So far I like the yeast and will wait if I have to... but wanted to see of perhaps I was doing something wrong. Maybe I had missed something somewhere. I have a heater in my fermentation box. Box is a 4'x4' 1" thick foam board walled box. Foam board lid and a wooden pallet on the concrete floor. The heater keeps Temps at about 80°. Will check in the morning, but today the ferment seemed to have sped up a little. I added a mix of homemade yeast energizer. Will see what happens...

[Prairiepiss]

I would say if you have tried others but like this yeast flavor best. You probably just need to live with the te it takes. I have a feeling that time has a lot to do with you liking it better.

Ferment times are a funny thing. Most commonly it is either one or two weeks. Some like me no mater what I ferment primary fermentation takes one week. While others it takes two weeks. Same recipes temps everything. And still have different ferment times. Sounds like you are one of the odd ones that have an overly long ferment time.

If you like what you are getting. I wouldn't change a thing. Other then getting a few more r fermenters. When you do that you will forget about the time it takes one to ferment.

[Bushman]

I run mine about the same as cranky, I have yet to do a run in less than 2 weeks fermentation but I also like to let it go an extra week to let things settle. With 4 six gallon fermenters I can be doing an 11.5 gallon run every two weeks or less which yields just over a gallon a month of product. Not sure how much you like to drink but that is more than enough for my wife and I.

[rager]

i have a slow ferment going now. at least for me slow. most my AGs will be finished within 5 days with a sg of around 1.06. right now i have white rice going converted with enzymes with a og of 1.07 with 2# of rice to a gallon ( aprx 85% conversion). im on day 5 now and my buckets are at 1.03 and 1.04. not bad because its dropping everyday. but much slower than normal.

mash tastes excellent right now so im excited to see how it turns out with a slower than normal ferment time.

btw. i picked up 20 pounds of rice for 8 bucks. hopefully ill get 2 quarts of keep out of it.

cheers

[thumper123]

That's about par for my ferments, too rager. My old days making rum were all done with black strap and baker's yeast, and I don't remember any of them going for more than a week. Are we talking about the luck element here, or are we overlooking at a more basic nutrient problem? I have no problems whatsoever with mash/wash ferments like I have had making wine. I had to fool around with yeast nutrients, etc., etc., and I still came up once in awhile with a slow wine ferment. I get around four days with an all grain mash and DADY. It's an almost explosive ferment. It makes me wonder if maybe the DADY loves maltose, the baker's yeast loves molasses, and the wine is just flaky because wine is choosy about its yeast.

[fqu8847]

Wine is choosy!!!! That's the best yet!!! I believe I will add a few more nutrients to the next batch(es) and see if that helps at all. I'm liking the end result, and I actually supply my parents and grandparents as well as myself and my wife with drinks so a little extra wait time won't hurt at all! I just wasn't sure and wanted some input from other more accomplished individuals!

[drmiller100]

Anyone tried oyster shells?

[shadylane]

Oyster shells and a yeast bomb.
The ferment will be faster and cleaner.

[cranky]

Anyone tried oyster shells?

Lots of people use them, NZChris and some others have done extensive testing on them and found they balance the PH throughout the ferment there is a thread on that somewhere. I use seashells since I live close to a beach and they work nicely.

[Copper Thumper]

I run mine about the same as cranky, I have yet to do a run in less than 2 weeks fermentation but I also like to let it go an extra week to let things settle. With 4 six gallon fermenters I can be doing an 11.5 gallon run every two weeks or less which yields just over a gallon a month of product. Not sure how much you like to drink but that is more than enough for my wife and I.

I don't drink alot, but I REALLY enjoy giving it away to people.

I have four 32 gallon fermenters now.

I think I'm hooked.

[sungazer]

I don't know maybe I am a cheap skate but the comment Yeasts are cheap to me doesn't seem to apply in Australia. A 500g packet of 118 or 2226 ect costs about $50. So when I see birdwatchers recipe calling for aprox 250g yeast for a 100L batch I shudder. I am not criticizing the recipe at all here just a comment about the costs. Especially when on the packet the recommended amount is only about 25-40g per 100L. This makes the yeast a considerable cost in the production. I have never used a bakers yeast as I am aiming towards the higher end ABV and for sugar only washes.

I appreciate that a lot of people her are doing AG ferments and using pot stills for flavors. But that is not what is being done here in this example.

I think that you may not have had enough Yeast nutrients or all the required yeast nutrients to produce a faster ferment. Yeast nutrients is where I would be looking to tinker with and or the PH of the wash just check that you have that right as well.

[Copper Thumper]

I would make a yeast starter with sugar and nutrient to save money.


After one ferment take some leftovers and do it all over....


No way I'd pitch 250g of yeast anyway to any ferment in a hobby scale.


There is just no need.

[fqu8847]

I agree with you there thumper... and sungazer, I have yet to check the pH on any of them. Perhaps some oyster shells would help to fix this problem. I have read they are good for adjusting ph. As far as starters go, I always do.

[DrMalt]

While water chemistry is important to a fast and clean fermentation it isn't as important as yeast pitching rate. (Viable cells) If a yeast pack was carefully stored and is also fresh, 5 grams will be sufficient for 20 - 26 L with a sugar content around 1.050.

If the yeast is old, gravity is higher, or if the temperatures are lower than 70F, then double the yeast pitch rate. If more than one of these conditions are met double the volume again! Either way, the yeast will grow to the volume they need but a head-start is a good thing in such a competitive environment. Make sure micro nutrients and Calcium are available in addition to getting pH at or near to 5.5.

Over pitching yeast is detrimental also. Stressed yeast (this process is stressful), produce esters and cogeners. Some of which are not desirable. As the yeast multiply and then finish fermentation they reabsorb some of these which cleans up the wash. This is a good reason for "clearing a mash" because it leaves the bad stuff behind in the yeast mass left over.

A well managed, clean ferment produces viable, healthy, fresh and 100% free yeast. This can be separated, washed and re-pitched. It can also be stored nearly indefinitely with more careful husbandry.

[ga flatwoods]

Pour in some baking soda and see if it immediately foams up. If so add a little more and wait a while. It should start kicking and fermenting hard if ph is the problem. Premier cuvee is a great wine yeast for fruits and would help to make a good ferment for brandy. Montrachet is an all around go to for grapes and misc types of wine. I dont think Premier Cuvee is a champaign yeast however. Both premier and montrachet like warmer temps.
Ga Flatwoods

[Pesty]

What kind of water are you using and are you testing/treating it. tap water in my area is bad and filled with Chemicals so I have to use bottled spring water, add minerals, salts, nutes and ph stabilizer before pitching my starter.

[skow69]

Fermax can be a great help to a sugarhead.

[fqu8847]

Sorry for late reply... baking soda showed the demon for what it was. Too acidic. I have since started using oyster shells (or the like) with every batch of ferment. I also use raisins or tomato paste with every one regardless of grain type.