Simplest high-proof reflux setup?

[st3vski]

Hi, relative newbie here (only messed with a 3 gallon pot still but understand the fundamentals of distilling) looking for advice on a build. I plan to make a fuel still for a competition, and yes, I am aware of all the legalities and practicalities of this. My plan will be a reflux still that needs to reach at least 180 proof consistently. The boiler will be a 50 gallon steel drum, and the condenser will be a worm inside a drum filled with water. My issue at the moment is what type of design to pick for the column. As I was reading about the different types of reflux designs in the wiki, I came across this quote-

"a proven setup to achieving great flavor retention is a column which utilizes plates at various levels throughout as its ‘packing’. ie. The area where the liquid distillate has contact with rising ethanol vapor. Each plate used provides a cleaner product, and a reasonable column height packed with copper mesh can have an equivalent result of 20 or more plates producing a 95% alcohol by volume output. When distilling a whisky or rum, this is obviously not a desirable result, and a pot still or plated column is used."

From what I understand, a tall column packed with copper/stainless mesh will be able to produce 90-95% abv distillate with no other reflux inducing parts like plates or column condensers? Am I correct? If so wouldn't this be the best option for a fuel still as there are no extra cooling mechanisms going on? If not, what do y'all think is the simplest, best column design for a strictly fuel-producing still. Thanks, Steve.

[Bushman]

From what I understand, a tall column packed with copper/stainless mesh will be able to produce 90-95% abv distillate with no other reflux inducing parts like plates or column condensers? Am I correct? If so wouldn't this be the best option for a fuel still as there are no extra cooling mechanisms going on? If not, what do y'all think is the simplest, best column design for a strictly fuel-producing still. Thanks, Steve.

Yes and no a reflux condenser can reach those %’s but it needs a reflux condenser otherwise you are only getting passive reflux which won‘t yield much more than you would get with a pot still.

[st3vski]

Ok thank you, that makes more sense. In your opinion, what is the simplest and most effective reflux design that I could use?

[Oatmeal]

Boka is pretty simple. CCVM maybe? How much time/money you wanting to put into it. Lava rocks is a pretty inexpensive packing, or marbles.

[Yummyrum]

Might want to check our rules before further discussion if a boiler you envisage .

In our view 30 gallons and under is considered hobby size. Do not bring anything larger than this to our site. Legal distillers can talk about larger boilers in the Craft Distiller forums. #

Anyway housekeeping aside , you can achieve a higher ABV by stripping your wash first in a Pot still and then running the stripped low wines in your reflux still .

The size of your still should be taken into consideration . A 2” reflux still will typically produce at around 1litre an hour . A 3” can be pushed around 2l/h while a 4” can pump out 4 l/h .

While 4” might seem the obvious choice , consider that it will need around 8kW of electricity or a fuckton of gas if you run propane .
Also as mentioned , you need forced reflux to make these stills work otherwise they are no better than a pot still .

That means a lot of water . By the time you strip and reflux still 200 litres of wash , you will need at least a 2-3000 litre tank , and thats leaving it a week to cool down again before the next run .

[Wyododge]

While 4” might seem the obvious choice , consider that it will need around 8kW of electricity or a fuckton of gas if you run propane .

Yummy… looking for a conversion from imperial gas fucktons to metric. I’m a newbie but can you help a brother out??

sorry couldn’t resist, and you made me spit on my phone so I figure we’re even

[howie]

While 4” might seem the obvious choice , consider that it will need around 8kW of electricity or a fuckton of gas if you run propane .

Yummy… looking for a conversion from imperial gas fucktons to metric. I’m a newbie but can you help a brother out??

sorry couldn’t resist, and you made me spit on my phone so I figure we’re even

apparently, thanks to google............
10 shitloads per metric fuckton. In English measurements, it’s about 66/7 shitloads per fuckton. Most people prefer to use metric.
other conversions..........
buttload * 10 = 1 butt ton
butt ton * 10 = 1 assload
assload * 10 = 1 asston
asston * 10 = 1 shitload
shitload * 10 = 1 shitton
shitton * 10 = 1 fuckload
fuckload * 10 = 1 fuckton

[Yummyrum]

howie , you answered Wyo excellently
I may add that a fuckton of gas is around 3-4 9kg bottles to strip and reflux . At nearly $25-30 a bottle , depending where you get it , thats around $100 of gas to end up with around 15liters of ethanol , not including sugar , yeast, neuts etc .

Seems expensive way to make fuel . I’ll stick to paying $2 a litre for petrol .

[Saltbush Bill]

Seems expensive way to make fuel . I’ll stick to paying $2 a litre for petrol .

Thats the main thing I'd be looking at, you will use more energy than you will make imo.

[bluefish_dist]

Easiest to build imho is a ccvm. Can be built with essentially no welding or soldering and hand tools. Will easily make 180 proof, should make 190+ with enough height. S scrubbies have a hetp of about 4”. So 20 x 4” = 80in.

[shadylane]

I'd recommend a CM.
That is, "If" you have a cheap source of water that has a constant pressure and temp.
Build the CM with a slip in dimroth style of depleg and SS spools for the column.
Don't forget to recycle as much heat as possible.
Maybe use some of the waste water to heat a green house and feed the spent mash to some hogs.

On a side note, buying gasoline is easier than trying to make fuel grade alcohol.

[Setsumi]

To me the easy option would be a packed CCVM in 3". But if you want to make fuel biodiesel is the easy option, you might want to recover your methanol with a still but it would not take the same amount of energy as to make etanol based fuel.

If you want ethonal fuel, look around the continious still forum.

[zapata]

Please clarify your needs. You say it's for a competition, but what does that mean? Is it literally just a one off for a one day event never to be used again? Is it a competition of who can demonstrate basic ideas, or a competition of who can innovate something? Is this a high school science fair?

Are you looking to actually build a practical still or just one that you can show to people who don't know better and say "look, this makes alcohol that can be used as fuel" with zero regard for efficiency of water, power, feed stock, maintenance, etc?

[Salt Must Flow]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCVM (condenser cooling vapor management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

[Stonecutter]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCM (condenser cooling management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

Don’t you mean CCVM?

[Salt Must Flow]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCM (condenser cooling management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

Don’t you mean CCVM?

Yup, that's right. I forgot the terminology. I fixed it.

[NZPete]

I'll just weigh in here, I don't think a CCVM is simpler to build or run (although it is cheaper). A conventional VM would probably be simpler, especially if you size your takeoff so that you can just open it right up and run it at azeo.

From what you've said your goals are, a 3" packed column should be able to produce the product you're after at a pretty acceptable rate without getting too expensive to build/pack, and it won't need to be 2m of packed column too which is a plus.

As others have mentioned, unless you've got a solar setup and electricity is essentially free it's hard to see the financial payoff to distilling fuel

[Stonecutter]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCM (condenser cooling management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

Don’t you mean CCVM?

Yup, that's right. I forgot the terminology. I fixed it.

Word up brotha. Not trying to nit pick. Just don’t want to cornfuse anybody.
BTW you made a damn nice argument for lava rocks. Looks like I’m going to have to pick some up for myself.

[drmiller100]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCVM (condenser cooling vapor management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

I'd suggest marbles. My testing showed this to be the most efficient.
1/2 inch round rocks also work.

I think the horizontal condenser and lm is the simplest to build.

[NZPete]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCVM (condenser cooling vapor management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

I'd suggest marbles. My testing showed this to be the most efficient.
1/2 inch round rocks also work.

I think the horizontal condenser and lm is the simplest to build.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, marbles have been shown empirically and scientifically to have a pretty large hetp compared to scrubbies, spp or lava rock.

An lm with a horizontal reflux condenser is probably not as simple in terms of construction as a standard bok slant plate or vm/ccvm

I do agree with your sentiment that the packing is more important than what type of reflux still it is, as long as it's well designed

[bluefish_dist]

From my testing hetp of marbles is about 5” and scrubbies are right at 4”. Never tested lava rock. Imho marbles are expensive (if you buy a known quality soda glass) and heavy. The plus side is they are easy to clean, work relatively well, and are easy to adjust your packed height.

[drmiller100]

I think the packing that is used is more important than the design of the still itself. I have tried copper mesh, stainless scrubbers, ceramic packing and properly sized lava rock. Lava rock is by far the best packing in comparison in my experience. For my 3" VM column I used a kittly litter scooper to sieve out the larger pieces and set aside the smaller pieces that fell through. It is difficult to not reach 97% ABV says my hydrometer at 60F. Now I have not tried this, but I have a feeling that the smaller pieces would work great in a 2" column. I bought two boxes of this lava rock and even after separating the larger bits from the smaller bits, I have more than enough for a 6' x 3" column.

I personally prefer a VM (Vapor Management) still due to the simplicity of operation. I prefer opening/closing a gate valve over diddling around with raising/lowering the reflux condenser or managing the water flow to the reflux condenser.

The simplest design would probably have to go to either the Boka LM (Liquid Management) or the CCVM (condenser cooling vapor management) stills, but I believe the extra effort is well worth while for the VM (Vapor Management).

Do you intend to strip your wash first then do a spirit run or do you intend to do a 'one and done' run of your wash? 55 gal poly drums would be ideal to do 45 gal ferments. After fermentation, transfer it over to your 55 gal boiler.

I'd suggest marbles. My testing showed this to be the most efficient.
1/2 inch round rocks also work.

I think the horizontal condenser and lm is the simplest to build.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, marbles have been shown empirically and scientifically to have a pretty large hetp compared to scrubbies, spp or lava rock.

An lm with a horizontal reflux condenser is probably not as simple in terms of construction as a standard bok slant plate or vm/ccvm

I do agree with your sentiment that the packing is more important than what type of reflux still it is, as long as it's well designed

Have you tried using marbles?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Others are correct. Marbles are out dated and heavy, and lower effectiveness compared to others. Lava rock has been shown to be just as effective as even spp (probably the gold standard from what I've read). Sure, you can be successful with marbles, but they are far from the best, and most people no longer recommend them as first choice.

[Setsumi]

Others are correct. Marbles are out dated and heavy, and lower effectiveness compared to others. Lava rock has been shown to be just as effective as even spp (probably the gold standard from what I've read). Sure, you can be successful with marbles, but they are far from the best, and most people no longer recommend them as first choice.

I would like to see the direct comparison between lava rocks and SPP. I see many stating this but just can not find the discussion. What I do know is the size of lava rock to column diameter matters and my own observation is that lava rocks pours better in and out of a column than scrubbers and it is not as heavy as marbles.

Then again, I converted to plates and should not mind here.

Edit, my conversion to plates was to run flavoured products and I never ran SPP.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Its in the mega packing thread from years ago. Direct experiments. Someone I'm sure has it pegged and will link for you soon.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Looks like I had time to find it

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30727

[shadylane]

I plan to make a fuel still for a competition, and yes, I am aware of all the legalities and practicalities of this. My plan will be a reflux still that needs to reach at least 180 proof consistently. The boiler will be a 50 gallon steel drum, and the condenser will be a worm inside a drum filled with water. My issue at the moment is what type of design to pick for the column.

"a worm inside a drum filled with water" for the PC.
Doesn't sound like a way to win a competition.
How are you planning to cool the "RC" - reflux condenser?

As to the column packing for a 90% fuel still, that's easy to answer.
Use Scoria AKA lava rock. All the other options are less efficient and/or more expensive.

[Saltbush Bill]

I doubt that a reflux still that can only achieve 180 proof " 90% abv" is going to win any competitions.
That's at the very very low end for a reflux......it's the last 5-6% to get to 95-96% that makes the difference between very average and excellent.
Suggest you research the forum......easiest build capable of 93+ will be CCVM.
Marbles for packing where all the rage back when broken windscreen glass was popular.
There are better things these days imo.

[shadylane]

For fuel grade alcohol, 90% abv is good enough.
The only reason for a higher percentage is to get anhydrous ethanol to mix with gasoline.
And that is a waste of energy, time and alcohol.

[drmiller100]

Others are correct. Marbles are out dated and heavy, and lower effectiveness compared to others. Lava rock has been shown to be just as effective as even spp (probably the gold standard from what I've read). Sure, you can be successful with marbles, but they are far from the best, and most people no longer recommend them as first choice.

Have you tried marbles? Has anyone here tried them besides me?