Solder joins?

[Stilletto]

So I'm joining a 2" copper tube to a ferrule. I've searched but I can't see if a butt joint (with the end faces touching) is sufficient for soldering, or if I need to make a sleeve joint. I'm SURE the information is on here, but I'm not sure if my terminology is off.

My guess is that a sleeve joint would be better but the equipment to flare a copper tube is prohibitively expensive. I can get some joiners (2" ID) to go over the top but they're AU$40 for a pair. So... thinking I might stick with a butt joint.

[Dancing4dan]

Wouldn't recommend a butt joint. Never tried it though.

Your ferrule should fit inside of the copper or on the outside. A sleeve would work as well.

[Steve Broady]

I would not trust a butt joint. I’ve had too many fail already.

You don’t need anything fancy to stretch the copper. Grind a bevel on the ferrule, heat the copper to a dull red heat, let it cool so that it’s annealed, then you can drive the ferrule into (or onto, if you bevel the inside) the copper. You’ll be amazed how easy copper is to work once it’s annealed.

[elbono]

Check the dimensions of your pieces. If you're using standard sanitary ferrules and US type M copper pipe the ferrule will be a sloppy fit inside the pipe. It's not the easiest but they will solder that way. I have better luck with a thin copper shim in between.

A search for "ferrule" will give you lots of threads, it's your job to find the relevant ones. Here's one of the many:
viewtopic.php?p=7727683#p7727683

[Oatmeal]

How far off are you? I just had to anneal a piece of pipe and the hammer the ferrule in. I used a block to protect the surfaces. If you go that route, make sure it's clean and fluxed first.

[acfixer69]

I would cut a piece of 2" copper 3 cm long snip it open and slide it over the butt connection and solder it up. It will be plenty strong.

[still_stirrin]

If you know how to TiG weld, then the butt joint is the “go-to”. But, if you don’t TiG, and you’re just soldering, then some type of “lap joint” would be better to hold the solder.

Also, If you’re fretting over the cost of fittings, then try to swage the copper over the ferrule. But you will need to anneal the copper first to get it ductile enough to expand. Also, filing and sanding a radius or chamfer on the edge of the ferrule may help “lead-out” the copper to expand over the ferrule.
ss

[shadylane]

I would cut a piece of 2" copper 3 cm long snip it open and slide it over the butt connection and solder it up. It will be plenty strong.

Put a sleave over the butt joint...

[Twisted Brick]

.
A $10 grinding burr in a drill motor will enlarge your copper pipe nicely (5-6min each end). Also works great with fittings.
.

[Yummyrum]

I would cut a piece of 2" copper 3 cm long snip it open and slide it over the butt connection and solder it up. It will be plenty strong.

Agree , a sleeve is the go if you don’t have the ability to anneal and stretch copper to fit over the ferrule .

In Aussie , we have this same problem . The 2” copper is the same OD as the Ferrule . We could make a sleeve like acfixer suggested , but for only a few bucks , we can get 2” Copper couplers .

[Setsumi]

I would cut a piece of 2" copper 3 cm long snip it open and slide it over the butt connection and solder it up. It will be plenty strong.

This, or better put the snip inside.

[Stilletto]

Someone mentioned the couplers are only a couple of bucks, so I'm looking for them with new eyes. They have a few names (sleeves, sockets, and couplers) so it's a bit of a crap shoot.

I know I can make a sleeve, but I'm worried it won't be pretty! Maybe Setsumi has the right idea and I put the sleeve inside...

These are Australian tubes (I think they're K, if that means anything to anyone).They have EXACTLY the same diameter as the ferrule. (See photo)

This tube was cut with a pipe cutter, and the lip left on the inside edge fits into the ferrule tight enough that I can tilt the assembly almost parallel with the ground before the ferrule slips off.

[Sporacle]

Hey bud, just get a 2 inch coupler.
That's the solution for us in Aus.
Cheers

[Sporacle]

One of these

[Saltbush Bill]

Joiners/ sleaves are more than a couple of bucks......but if your paying 40 for them your being bent over.
Look around and you should get them for around $10au each.
Damn those are ugly bastards Sporical.....there are prettier ones out there.
Just took a photo of these two types.....the narrower one comes from Eagles Plumbing.....not sure if they are au wide or they do online.

[Sporacle]

Yeah, the ones I get from Samios are much nicer Salty.
Their website is crap so I just posted that so Stilleto knew what he was looking for

[juana_b]

The plumbing couplings that yummy posted will most likely be the least expensive and will hold the stresses with soft solder.
Even if you brazed with 56%, I'd still be worried about a butt-weld. TIG would work best for that.
I'm stuck on refrigeration fittings myself, I can't remember the last time I used anything that wasn't long radius even.
If you have the heat available to anneal, get it red hot, throw a wet rag on it, slightly flare the end with a hammer, then set the ferrule in, grab a piece of wood, and hammer that f'er in. Once it's softened, copper will stretch. If it isn't, it'll split. I've had to swage every ferrule yet. But I'm broke and have a recycle bin at work I check on weekly.
Your choice to spend time or money.
If I had a few bucks to spend, I'd buy once and cry once. Unless you're set on building your skills.
All part of the rabbit hole. Don't forget to bleed on your work.

[Yummyrum]

Joiners/ sleaves are more than a couple of bucks......but if your paying 40 for them your being bent over.

Not sure where you saw $40 a coupler Salty .

I’m buggered if I’d pay that either .

IIRC , I payed about $4 each at Trade link for mine …. Kinda similar price to the ones Sporacle was linking to .

Word up for Aussie distillers , Reeces is a rip off when it comes to Copper fittings . Trade link is the go .

However , Reeces Copper pipe prices is the winer compared to tradelink

[Saltbush Bill]

My mistake Yummy......first post in the thread says " $40, for a pair"
Your right about Reece, bloody thieves......Eagles are half the price if you have one handy.

[MooseMan]

Stiletto you could always spread a flange on the end of your copper tube if you haven't bought anything yet?

I did 3 of them for my build and found them relatively easy to do.
A hammer, a couple of clamps and a bit of wood is all it takes to spread the flange, then build up a bit of a shoulder for the clamp with solder.
Just go slow and easy and you can't really mess it up?
I'd never done it before so was expecting a couple of fails but it went really well.

[Stilletto]

Thanks for the responses.
I'm in Darwin, which is counted as regional, so postage to get things up here is usually in the $20 range. Hence $40 a pair.

But, there's a Samios up here which is good value. I've bitten the bullet and applied for an account so I can see pricing. Felt a bit weird going through all that just to buy some copper. I'm guessing plumbers are not the best people...

I did think about expanding the ends of the tube to accomodate the ferrule, but these were hard won! I wouldn't want to spit them, and I don't know about annealing. I thought I'd done it once, but the piece never glowed cherry red. Mind you, this was before I got my MAPP torch, so I was just using propane. I don't know if that makes a difference.

Sadly there's no Eagles near me. There's Samios, Tradelink, Reece, Bunnings... plenty of thieves in that list.

[juana_b]

Mapp is higher temp than propane, but not even close to oxy/acetylene. You could use the method some have used here and put the piece on another burner and also apply heat with mapp.

[Saltbush Bill]

You can use a plain old 3 or 4 ring gas burner 2 anneal......that or light a fire in the back yard......no need to get all fancy.

[Yummyrum]

I’ve always found Tradelink the best prices for Copper fittings . But boy , they sting you for pipe .

[Beefer]

I had the same issue with the 2 inch aussie pipe to the ferrules, managed to pick up a cheap pipe expander kit from a local auto shop. I took it slow and heated the copper up when it started getting hard to move. Worked a treat....then its the rabbit hole of joining stainless to copper, but its a proud moment every time I drag it out to use it.

[Yummyrum]

Pipe expanders require annealing of copper first.

To soften Copper , it has to be heated until it is at minimum Cherry Red ….if it ain’t , it ain’t annealed and it won't be soft.


In my experience 2” is at the extreme of where MAPP can anneal . Much more than a foot of 2” will just keep sucking and dissipating all the heat a MAPP torch can give .

So yes , if you want to anneal 2” (and bigger ) to either expand or bash out a flange , you need to add extra heat …Iff’n you are happy to spend a full bottle of MAPP to get job done

AKA ,3 or 4 ring Bango . Also In my experience , a Bango burner won’t get 2” to red hot on it’s own , but it will let you bring it home with a MAPP

[Saltbush Bill]

In my experience it doesnt need to be glowing red hot, just gotta be bloody hot, Ive never had a problem doing it on a 3 ring banjo.......seems we get different results on some things.
get it as hot as you can.........dump it in cold water.

[Beefer]

It wasn't a walk in the park but if I remember right, it was under a bottle of MAPP to get 6 flanges sorted and a condensor coiled up for the Boka head I made. I got the condensor tubing by the metre from an aircon place, it comes in insulated 'pairs" of 2 different diameter tubes.