Diastatic Power -- raw wheat versus malted wheat

[Mr_Beer]

I did not see anything on the forum that directly addresses this question. Any help would be appreciated.

Recipe has
26 pounds corn with the addition of enzymes during the conversion process
10 pounds of raw wheat -- i.e. NOT malted, crushed and added at about 140 degrees
2 pounds of barley, crushed and added at about 140 degrees

This recipe would have plenty of DP if the wheat was malted.

The local feed store has raw wheat for $.018 per pound and is 9 mile away.
My home brew store is a couple bucks per pound but it is 170 miles away.

If I decide to use raw (unmalted) wheat is there some way to compensate for the low DP?
Would the high and low temp enzymes help in the conversion?

Any insight would be appreciated.

[still_stirrin]

… The local feed store has raw wheat for $.018 per pound and is 9 mile away…

Are you sure you haven’t misplaced the decimal?

What you’ve listed is less than 2 cents per pound, and at 60 lb/bushel (which is what wheat weighs at the optimum moisture content) that would be a market price of only $1.08/bushel. Currently the price (at my local COOP) is $7.82/bushel. That would make the price per pound at: $0.13 (13 cents).

So, double check your calculations. I believe you’re wrong.

I did not see anything on the forum that directly addresses this question:
If I decide to use raw (unmalted) wheat is there some way to compensate for the low DP?

Any insight/help would be appreciated.

Unmalted wheat has plenty of diastatic power. The problem is that it isn’t “available” to the mash unless the grain is properly gelatinized. So, I suggest gelatinizing it with the corn when you gelatinize it.

I gelatinize corn (after milling it to a meal) in a stock pot on the stovetop. And then I hold it at 190*F for 2 hours in the oven before adding to the mash tun where I dough in the other grains. If you mill the raw wheat (again, to a flour) and then gelatinize it with the corn, it will help with conversion when added to the mash tun.

I realize this process is a little more labor intensive, but it will help with conversion. One thing to note is that conversion requires temperature maintenance, proper enzyme activity, circulation, and TIME. Yes, complete conversion is not a fast process.

And if you’re wanting to use some raw or malted rye, then you’re asking for an upward infusion step mash, because the beta glucans are reduced at 110-120*F, before you’ll reach saccarification temperature.

… Would the high and low temp enzymes help in the conversion?

Enzymes would definitely “help”. But, you must use them properly. Again, temperature, pH, circulation, and rest times affect the effectiveness. Also, the “water:grain ratio” will affect the effectiveness. So, proper attention to the details of the mash process are not circumvented with the use of liquid enzymes. Use them, if you’ve got them.
ss

[still_stirrin]

Also, to add: wheat is easy to malt, especially if it’s fresh (from the COOP).

There are a couple of very good threads on the website that outline home malting. Search for it (and help yourself).
ss

[Twisted Brick]

Like ss said, high and low temp enzymes are required for properly converting un-malted grains. Mash away at the proper time/temps and you'll be fine.

The wheat berries (red and white) you can get from Azure Standard are high quality and malt up nicely.

[Mr_Beer]

And again 'still-stiring' has found my fat fingers on the calculator. Yes the decimal was incorrect -- s/b $0.18 per pound.

I am not up for malting grains at home at this time -- want to focus on the basics and not ancillary items like malting.

Normally I would bring my mash pot to 194F and add the enzymes followed by the corn with plenty of stirring. Then as stuff happens and cooling is occurring when it reaches approximately 140F I would add the low temp enzymes and other grains. Cooling occurs and eventually it gets to pitching temp. My limited experience is that with the pot covered conversion occurs after 16 to 24 hours and I am able to meet my target SG.

asking for an upward infusion step mash

confused me.

I believe SS suggested that adding the ground wheat to the corn mixture at the high temp point would allow the conversion to occur since the DP of the wheat would be made available.

Did I read correctly?

[still_stirrin]

Except that at gelatinization temperature, the saccarification enzymes are denatured. Hence, the addition of gluco-amylase enzymes at 150*F.

“Upward infusion” is mashing at lower temperatures and then raising the temperature of the mash by the addition of hot water.

With a name like, Mr. Beer you should know all this. Why don’t you?
ss

[still_stirrin]

… I am not up for malting grains at home at this time -- want to focus on the basics and not ancillary items like malting.

Search the website for “malting wheat” threads. It is really easy to do. You just need a couple of buckets (to soak & drain). And you can have malted wheat for the cost of raw wheat. Also, it gelatinizes and develops the diastatic enzymes so you can gain the advantage of the extra diastatic power to help convert your corn.

C’mon man. Don’t “puss out”. You can do it.

I made a screen frame that fits over a box fan to dry the grains after malting. It’s easy to do. Just get creative. Low cost investments will teach you a lot.
ss

Grain drying frame

[NormandieStill]

Unmalted wheat has plenty of diastatic power. The problem is that it isn’t “available” to the mash unless the grain is properly gelatinized. So, I suggest gelatinizing it with the corn when you gelatinize it.

Hate to pull you up on an otherwise (as usual) great post, but unmalted wheat has little to no DP. The amylase enzymes that are behind that DP are created during the malting process (which will also gelatinise the starches to some degree). My experience with raw wheat has been that while gelatinisation can take place at mashing temps, since I was using HT enzymes I tended to throw it into boiling water. Malted wheat does not require gelatinisation at high temperatures. As I understand it, the same is true for corn, which (along with the flavour change) is a compelling reason for malting it.

To the OP. I would second having a go at malting wheat. It's a lot more transparent a process that malting barley (because there's no husk) and even if you just do one or two small batches to cook up soem speciality malt that you couldn't easily get otherwise, it's quite an experience. Scaling up to "production" quantities will require either a huge number of batches or a drying setup that starts to take up some space though. Best done if you have a free shed somewhere (I imagine a smoking cabinet that's not currently in use could be temporarily converted to a drying cabinet for serious quantities.

[Bradster68]

I'm guessing SS was maybe referring to sugar Content. Unmalted wheat has almost as much sugar Content as malted. It just needs to gelatinize at the right temp, and add some enzymes.

[Wildcats]

Isn't wheat harder to malt. I read that it can be hard to malt because it has no hull. No saying it can't... Just hard. Granted I've never tried to malt any.

[bilgriss]

Usually diastatic power is specifically referring to the capability of converting starches to sugar as a ratio to weight of the grain. Unmalted wheat has no capability to convert itself or other grains (until it is malted). But it has almost as much starch content, as long as you gelatinize it sufficiently.

[NormandieStill]

Isn't wheat harder to malt. I read that it can be hard to malt because it has no hull. No saying it can't... Just hard. Granted I've never tried to malt any.

No. It's dead easy. The lack of hull means that you can see the acrospire growing so you don't have to handle the grains or cut them open to know when their ready. I've only done small batches so far (around 500g), but scaling would be a case of adding space, not changing the methodology.

Also, as I understand it, wheat is less sensitive to steeping temperature than barley.

Just try it with a couple of handfuls of grains. Worst case you let them grow a little further and eat the germs.

[Mr_Beer]

WOW!!

Now I am confused.

First – my summary of this topic so far
The various posters have questioned some of the statements and asked other questions.

Let’s start with my objectives – possibly there were misunderstood in the original post.
I am trying to understand the mashing and distillation process at the beginner/intermediate level. I DO NOT want to engage in any ancillary activities like malting grains.

My question was related to the ability to use unmalted wheat and not drive 300+ miles to get malted versions. It was not intended to go into any topics related to malting grains.

What I think I understand is that corn gelatinization occurs at high temperatures and to avoid a porridge consistency the addition of high temp enzymes will ensure that it is somewhat viscous.

Since wheat has no available DP, addition of the crushed product at the same time and temp as the corn will not hurt – the molecular bonds will be relaxed in preparation for saccharification. There might be some effect on flavor because of the addition at high temps but nobody has mentioned that.

Waiting for the temperature to drop to the ~150F range will take many hours for a 16 gallon mash pot – probably six to 8 hours. The gelatinization process will have much time to occur. The addition of the low temp enzymes will then promote the saccharification process for the ‘ends’ of the starchy bonds and allow conversion of the wheat at the lower temps.

The conversion should be complete when the temperature drops to the 80F range. An iodine test will determine same. At that time the mixture can be transferred to a fermenter and yeast, Go-Ferm, and vitamins added. In my protocol, Fermax is added about 30 hours after fermentation starts.

As a commentary, I used the above process with about 25% rye and my OG hit my goal of 1.07x. Dumb luck since I did not understand that rye was a special case regarding gelatinization and reaching a state where the sugars can be released.

My tentative conclusion is that with corn based mashing high temps and enzymes take the guesswork out of the process. The enzymes substitute for the DP concerns often considered/discussed.

Post mash note: The final OG prior to pitch was 1.071 -- .006 lower than my goal. I consider that successful. It is clear that the wheat did convert when added at the higher temperatures and as the mash cooled encountered the low temp enzymes. This was the same result as my prior corn & rye mix that followed same protocol.

In my opinion, based on these results, enzymes are the key and in some sense take the guess work out of the process. Use of malted adjunt grains versus unmalted grains seems to be a moot point based on these results. At my production level (14 gallon mash sizes) my $35 enzyme expenditure will last me about two years -- about the time that they expire.


Second – a clarification
In a PM to “still-stirin”, after he chastised me for not having appropriate knowledge, I explained to him that my “Mr_Beer” username was a throwback to 15 years ago when I organized and started our local Home Brewing club. It stuck and is currently still used with its own email account. The designation/name is shown on various plaques and citations over the years.

Unfortunately, I do not extensive knowledge – adequate most often but certainly not extensive. And that lack of expert knowledge is why this forum is so valuable.

[Wildcats]

Didn't mean to derail your thread man.

[still_stirrin]

Here’s a good read regarding unmalted vs. malted cereal grains for brewing:

adjuntos_e_adjuvantes_cervejeiros___ing_1601580155312.pdf

Unmalted Grains as Adjuncts

(159.98 KiB) Downloaded 108 times

Indeed, unmalted wheat has diastatic power. However, it must be gelatinized in order to gain the advantage of the enzymes. Fortunately, gelatinization can be done at saccarification temperatures. So, if you gelatinize at higher temperatures, additional enzymes will be needed for conversion. You could use liquid enzymes or malted barley accordingly.
ss

[NormandieStill]

Here’s a good read regarding unmalted vs. malted cereal grains for brewing:

adjuntos_e_adjuvantes_cervejeiros___ing_1601580155312.pdf

Indeed, unmalted wheat has diastatic power. However, it must be gelatinized in order to gain the advantage of the enzymes. Fortunately, gelatinization can be done at saccarification temperatures. So, if you gelatinize at higher temperatures, additional enzymes will be needed for conversion. You could use liquid enzymes or malted barley accordingly.
ss

Wow. That's insane. I'm going to have to try a mini unmalted wheat mash to see this in action. My favourite sipping whisky at the minute is an unmalted wheat and oak that I converted using HT enzymes. If I can make it my just grinding the wheat direct from the farm I'll be extremely happy.

[bilgriss]

Let us know how it goes. I think you probably need to approach temperatures very slowly, as enzymes denature as temperature increases, even slowly on the lower end. Since you need to gelatinize as well, I'm curious how effective that will be. This is why I stated that practically it may not convert itself, although in theory it's possible.

[Mr_Beer]

See the Post Mash notes in the thread above -- results are as expected.

[howie]

anyone else confused by this thread?
i bought a 25kg sack of unmalted wheat a while ago, and had a play at making a wheat vodka, with grey goose in mind.
my mind was that unmalted wheat had no DP and i used enzymes throughout my mashing.
some respected members have posted differing opinions on unmalted wheat in this thread and i have found differing opinions online.
so without going into the DIY malting process, has unmalted wheat actually got any DP?
these are some excerpts..........

Beer maverick-
Flaked and torrified wheat have a DP of 0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmalted wheat cannot self-convert its starches into sugars. It needs to be mashed in with a base malt so that it can use the enzymes for sugar conversion. Keep in mind that unmalted wheat can also provide nearly identical amounts of sugar when compared to malted wheat
(I suppose they mean that there is similar amounts of starch in unmalted & malted)
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In sound normal wheat and flour the diastatic activity is due primarily to the action of beta-amylase. When wheat germinates, a second "diastatic factor," termed alpha-amylase, is produced.
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[Demy]

I thought something similar when (as a hobby) I dealt with homemade bread, sourdough etc ... From what I understand the wheat should have a small amount of dormant b-amylase ... but I think in any case the conversion for our uses could not take place in a reasonable time .....

[higgins]

In all my years of homebrewing I've been under the impression that there was no DP in raw wheat. That paper was an interesting read, albeit somewhat over my head.

I'm driving down to visit my sister tomorrow about 4 hours away, and I found a marketplace post for 50 lb bags ($10) of combine harvested wheat that is only about an hour out of the way. I hope to pick up 5 bags on my way, but it will depend on what time I'll be able to pick it up - he has not responded yet.

If I do get it, maybe I'll mash a pound of it by itself at 145F to see if it converts, plus a second 1 lb mash with enzymes for comparison.

I plan to use the wheat to make a GNS for vodka and gin, a wheat whiskey, and for some wheated bourbon.