New 3" column build opinions

[Thatguy1307]

So Im close to pulling the trigger to buy parts to build my next still. My plan is a keg boiler with electric element and controller. A 3" column on top of that with 4 bubble plates and a CCVM style condenser above that. I would stick with a 3" takeoff so I could theoretically get a 1:1 reflux ratio with the PC raised completely above the takeoff. My question is: would I be pulling any flavor at all in that configuration? I know its not going to be as deep a flavor as a pot still, but will I be able to get any flavor to carry over? I know I can lower the PC and get a higher reflux ratio for neutral. Id appreciate any advice or insight.

[SW_Shiner]

Get a cap for the top too. Then if running pot still mode you can remove the reflux condenser. There will still be some passive reflux depending on column insulation, but there will be a lot less.

[Salt Must Flow]

A pot still is typically used for flavored spirits. Some opt to use bubble plates with their pot still, but that typically requires that you use a Dephlegmator. Dephlegmators function as 'partial condensers'. You would also need a product condenser like a Liebig Condenser or a Shotgun Condenser.

A packed column like a VM, CCVM, etc... is typically used for making a neutral spirit. Packed reflux columns use a reflux condenser and a product condenser.

Sometimes new distillers get excited and want some of everything. Well that's fine, but FIRST know what you want to make and what type of still configuration you NEED to make it.

You can build both. BOTH can share most of the common parts. You can assemble it, take it apart like Legos using Tri-Clamp fittings.

[Saltbush Bill]

You will still get flavour using 4 plates, plenty of people make brown spirits using 4 plate column.
I wouldn't go 3 inch as it will be slow, 4 inch is a better option.
As pointed out above, plates without a deflegmator are a waste of time.

[Thatguy1307]

I assumed the RC of the CCVM would be plenty to return liquid to the plates? Why is a defleg mandatory over any other sort of RC? Ive run plenty of neutral through a packed CCVM. Just never run plates.

[Salt Must Flow]

I assumed the RC of the CCVM would be plenty to return liquid to the plates? Why is a defleg mandatory over any other sort of RC? Ive run plenty of neutral through a packed CCVM. Just never run plates.

A reflux condenser condenses 100% of the vapor that rises up through the packed column. The reflux falls down through the packing as well as the hot rising vapor. With VM and CCVM, any vapor allowed to exit the vapor take-off gets condensed by the product condenser and is collected as product. If any vapor escaped past a reflux condenser, it will go into the air inside of the stilling area. That's a waste of product and potentially dangerous.

A Dephlegmator is a 'partial condenser'. What condenses will fall through the bubble plates below. The the rest of the vapor (that passes THROUGH the dephlegmator) is condensed by the product condenser a exists as product.

Look at drawings of each still type and you'll see that they are nothing similar. They're two totally different type of stills.

Perhaps you're thinking about a CM (Cooling Management) still. A CM still uses a Dephlegmator. It can be operated with a tall packed column to make neutral spirits or configured as a pot still with bubble plates beneath it for flavored spirits.

[Thatguy1307]

I am familiar with the different types of reflux methods. I am confident my reflux condenser can knock down 100% of the vapor that rises through the column so no worries about vapor escaping. I control how much liquid is returned to the plates and how much goes to the product condenser (the reflux ratio) by raising or lowering the condenser (or by opening and closing the gate valve on a traditional VM). A deflag is just a CM style reflux condenser. I still fail to see why it would be preferable to a VM or CCVM in my case. VM and CCVM obviously are capable of controlling the reflux ratio in a packed column. Why not in a plated column?

[SW_Shiner]

I thought there were a few people here that run plates with a CCVM head.

[tommysb]

Look into just a gate-valve controlled VM as well. There's been some debate about whether it's worth moving the CC as the gate valve will do a similar thing.

[Thatguy1307]

Yes a gate valve does almost exactly the same thing. The CC part is just easier and cheaper to me.

[Setsumi]

I run CCVM on my flutes. CCVM RC is just to get reflux to load the plates. The faster you run the plates the more flavour, but in general plates = flavour.

[Saltbush Bill]

The faster you run the plates the more flavour

And just like any other type of still, run it to fast and you will pull tails through into your hearts.

[30xs]

A plated column is going to be a plated column regardless of CM, VM, or CCVM takeoff. Realistically it’s going to send the same flavored spirit vapors towards the condenser any way you slice it.

I built CM but really considering swapping over to VM. VM can have a little less height requirement and more repeatable than a CCVM. The valve is going to be X turns from closed and repeatable. CCVM is going to vary a little based on water flow and temperature. If running from a reservoir it’s going to be a constant fiddling event. VM on the other hand set and forget.

The CCVM was born because the price of a stainless gate valve was expensive. Not really as much of a price difference anymore.

The other question is why 3” instead of 4”? 4” will have a slightly faster takeoff and several build treads you can pull ideas from.

[shadylane]

I am familiar with the different types of reflux methods. I am confident my reflux condenser can knock down 100% of the vapor that rises through the column so no worries about vapor escaping. I control how much liquid is returned to the plates and how much goes to the product condenser (the reflux ratio) by raising or lowering the condenser (or by opening and closing the gate valve on a traditional VM). A deflag is just a CM style reflux condenser. I still fail to see why it would be preferable to a VM or CCVM in my case. VM and CCVM obviously are capable of controlling the reflux ratio in a packed column. Why not in a plated column?

Your game plan will work.
I've watched a friend play with a CCVM takeoff using a 3" Tee on top 3" plates.
Worked great on sieve plates but not so good with bubble caps, even with the RC coil pulled up above the take off .
The power had to be turned down below what should have worked best because of too much reflux and not a fast enough takeoff.

[Thatguy1307]

I am familiar with the different types of reflux methods. I am confident my reflux condenser can knock down 100% of the vapor that rises through the column so no worries about vapor escaping. I control how much liquid is returned to the plates and how much goes to the product condenser (the reflux ratio) by raising or lowering the condenser (or by opening and closing the gate valve on a traditional VM). A deflag is just a CM style reflux condenser. I still fail to see why it would be preferable to a VM or CCVM in my case. VM and CCVM obviously are capable of controlling the reflux ratio in a packed column. Why not in a plated column?

Your game plan will work.
I've watched a friend play with a CCVM takeoff using a 3" Tee on top 3" plates.
Worked great on sieve plates but not so good with bubble caps, even with the RC coil pulled up above the take off .
The power had to be turned down below what should have worked best because of too much reflux and not a fast enough takeoff.

Interesting. I assumed sieve plates would be easier to flood. The only reason I was thinking 3" instead of 4" was cost. I used to run a 2" ccvm with lava rocks and it ran beautifully but was strictly neutral. I could pull the RC and cap it to run as a pot still for whiskey but I always wanted a plated still.

[Thatguy1307]

After thinking about this i had an idea. Since Shadylane reported the issue of too much reflux, how would I work to reduce the reflux? My thought was to reduce the cross section of the RC area. If I reduce to 2" above the takeoff while still using a condenser that can knock everything down, that would encourage more vapor to exit towards the take off. The issue this presents is it would make it impossible to run as a CCVM. So add a gate valve and run it as a traditional VM. Hopefully the smaller cross section of the RC would allow me to get lower than a 1:1 reflux ratio (when the valve is wide open) and avoid the issue of too much reflux. I could also start with the valve closed, allow the plates to load, and then crack the valve until I get the desired reflux and take off rate. Thoughts?

[Salt Must Flow]

That is the purpose of a Dephlegmator. YOU control the water flow to regulate the amount of reflux. The vapor that is allowed to pass through goes to the product condenser. If you want to reduce reflux, reduce water flow and the take-off rate increases. That's just what Dephlegmators are for. You can also increase or decrease power input.

To try and make VM or CCVM work over plates you would have to install a blank plate with an orifice of an appropriate diameter above the vapor take-off (below the reflux condenser). It's just too much fiddling around to try and make it work. The ideal design already exists which is why the vast majority use a Dephlegmator.

[SW_Shiner]

I still don't understand how moving the reflux condensation point changes the amount of reflux. Surely it would be the same amount (all else being equal). Or where does the extra reflux come from or go to?

[SW_Shiner]

I just realised that SMF may be talking about reflux action and not reflux volume. Either way, i still don't understand how it makes any difference whether its condensed under a Dephlegmator or condensed under a CCVM, or any other sort of condenser.

[Thatguy1307]

I still don't understand how moving the reflux condensation point changes the amount of reflux. Surely it would be the same amount (all else being equal). Or where does the extra reflux come from or go to?

I was talking about the reflux ratio when moving the condenser below the takeoff. More vapor would be condensed as less is able to get to the takeoff. It is condensed and falls back to the plates.
In my last post I was talking about reducing the size of the pipe above the takeoff where the RC is in a regular VM. So you'd have a 3" takeoff but only a 2" area for vapor to make it to the RC. I assumed that would cause more vapor to exit the takeoff and less to continue to the RC, thereby limiting the reflux ratio.

[SW_Shiner]

I may just be misunderstanding everything. In my head im picturing a plated column, now i set power to say, 2200w. Full flow to defleg for full reflux, then slowly turn down water till vapour starts going past to product condenser and set my take off rate at 3L/hr. Now, i take the defleg out and add a tee and CCVM style reflux condenser. Set power again at 2200w, reflux condenser lowered all the way for full reflux, now slowly raise the condenser until i have set my take off rate to the same 3L/hr. Maybe i'm just missing something blatantly obvious, but it seems to me like there really isn't much of a difference.

[Thatguy1307]

I see no real difference either. The only reason I was brainstorming is because Shadylane reported issues with the reflux ratio being too high and returning more distillate to the plates than they could handle. In other words, the reflux ratio was too high. Researching other places it does seem like 1:1 (lowest you can normally get on a ccvm) is the upper limit of what 4 plates in a 3" column can handle. I may be totally wrong though lol

[SW_Shiner]

Ah, i think i must have missed the word ratio. If that's the case, then nothing i've said really applies to that.
That is correct in that case. With CM you can theoretically go to 0 reflux, where as with VM there will always be a split between takeoff and reflux.
I haven't run my plater as CM in a long time, i swapped to LM.

[shadylane]

Researching other places it does seem like 1:1 (lowest you can normally get on a ccvm) is the upper limit of what 4 plates in a 3" column can handle. I may be totally wrong though lol

1:1 would be the RC condensing 50% of the vapor into reflux and 50% of the vapor going out the port to the PC.
I prefer to think in terms of percentage of reflux instead of ratios. As in 0% being potstill mode and 100% reflux = nothing out of the take off
By nature a CCVM take off is limited to 50%-100% reflux.
Here's a way to change that to 25%-100%

[Thatguy1307]

Yes. In a normal CCVM still the lowest you can get is 1:1 or 50% of the vapor being returned to the column and 50% going to the takeoff. From my understanding, this is near the upper limit of what a 3" plated column can handle before you have to knock the power back. I was discussing how to improve this by limiting the size of the area the RC sits in. Something like this

Reducer.jpg

However, SMF got me thinking. By adding a kind of funnel shapped plate with a 2" opening right under the RC, you effectively do the same thing but also direct any reflux towards the center of the column. Something like this:

Plate.jpg

[30xs]

Yes. In a normal CCVM still the lowest you can get is 1:1 or 50% of the vapor being returned to the column and 50% going to the takeoff. From my understanding, this is near the upper limit of what a 3" plated column can handle before you have to knock the power back. I was discussing how to improve this by limiting the size of the area the RC sits in. Something like this
Reducer.jpg
However, SMF got me thinking. By adding a kind of funnel shapped plate with a 2" opening right under the RC, you effectively do the same thing but also direct any reflux towards the center of the column. Something like this:
Plate.jpg

By the time you do that and put a valve on the takeoff to be able to set the takeoff rate you have VM. I was thinking Yummy had swapped over to a VM takeoff on his plater?

VM does have benefits under some conditions. If you don’t have a constant cooling water flow rate and temp a CM is going to be fiddly. If running from a reservoir as the water heats a CM requires adjustment of the needle valve, and possibly has a smaller similar effect on a CCVM since the temp in the area of the coil/gate is what is creating the gate. If the temp increases a little more will pass, but maybe not enough to matter. I’ve never ran CCVM.

Shady’s post above talking about not working with caps, but fine with sieve plates, may be downcomer size related? Real estate in a 3” pipe is pretty limited. If a 1/2” downcomer was used the lower power used may allow a little to weep back through the sieve to keep up with the plate draining. Caps rely fully on the downcomer for drainage. Lower power and trying to find a sweet spot for takeoff may be almost impossible. Kind of like having an oversized dephleg on a CM and trying to make adjustments.

[Alzahra888]

Thanks for the heads up on your thread thatguy. With regards to your original question about any flavor carrying over, can I ask, will this be in lieu of a potstill or will you still be running one?

[Thatguy1307]

My plan would be to use the plates for a spirit run. Strip 3 or 4 runs in pot still mode and then use the plates for a spirit run. Unless you think I could get away with just doing one run with plates?

[Copperhead road]

Personally for Brown spirits I don’t run pot stilled low wines though a plated column still as I find I loose to much flavour.
I have a 5 plated flute I set it up in a 4 plate configuration and run my wash as a one and done.
I prefer to remove my plates and run it as a pot still doing stripping runs then a spirit run for maximum flavour for my liking.

[Thatguy1307]

Personally for Brown spirits I don’t run pot stilled low wines though a plated column still as I find I loose to much flavour.
I have a 5 plated flute I set it up in a 4 plate configuration and run my wash as a one and done.
I prefer to remove my plates and run it as a pot still doing stripping runs then a spirit run for maximum flavour for my liking.

Good to know! I have pot stilled flavored product before and neutral on a packed column. I have 0 experience with plates so im trying to learn as much as I can before actually dumping money into it.