Rum Talk......

[Liquid_Luv]

There's always a whiff of vinegar 'round my backset, but it's never developed into anything other than a whiff. bd

In that case BD, Please remind us to always stay two steps ahead of you

[blind drunk]

[Liquid_Luv]

Not sure if I should be starting a new thread with this or not, since there has been so much good info shared on Rum in this thread... do we really need another thread? Let me know your thoughts in a PM or e-mail as to whether or not it should stay here or on it's own... there will likely be over 100 posts over the next 12 months as shared data and observations.


Ok, for those that have been following the last month and a half of this thread, you may remember that I made some plans to do many experimental rum batches incorporating various techniques and document all the results in a scientific manner so that the results can be recreated to achieve the profiles we are seeking based on individual personal tastes. So, with that said, I'll provide the initial details, then regular updates as pertinent information becomes available... this is not a one night stand, this will play out over the next twelve months or so.

First of all, I have set the following standards:

All batches have been born in a 5 imp gal [23 liter] sterile glass carboy

All batches started with identical quantities and quality of ingredients as follows...



2 KG of first quality Fancy Molasses = 1.2 KG of fermentable sugar

2 KG of Dark Brown Sugar [Cassonade] = 2 KG of fermentable sugar

1 Large Potato, or 2 medium, or 3-4 smaller ones [preferable to use soft sprouted ones, but not rotten]

15 grams [3 teaspoons]DAP

5 grams [1 teaspoon] Epsom Salts

2 Multi Vitamins/ Multi Minerals [finely crushed]

2 heaping table spoons of boiled spent yeast [Bakers]

10 Liters of Fresh Dunder from recent Strip Runs originating from this same recipe [Dunder is at the correct PH to invert sugars, if doing a first time go of this, add 3 teas of Acid Blend, or juice of 1 whole ripe lemon, or two limes, or 2 tablespoons of Vinegar (prefer Balsamic or Wine) to achieve a PH of approx 4.5]



15 grams [3 teaspoons] Yeast... use your Favorite [I'm using Bakers for cheap consitent results]


Water to fill

Results in a consistent dry wash @ 8.4% abv in 4 days [+/- 8 hours] @ 80 Degrees Fahrenheit [26* Celsius]

Now these are the carefully controlled standards for each and every batch...


The variables [additions] made to each group of 3 batches are as follows:


Group A: No additions 3 batches

Group B: 10% Infected Dunder 3 batches

Group C: 20% Infected Dunder 3 batches



Primary racking after 1 week into one 12 Imp Gal [54 liter] sterile glass Demi John... to be left on lees. The remaining Wash approx. 10-12 liters once separated from Trub will get small batch stilled for initial sampling.


Then from each group, I have created two additional sub groups as follows 6 more batches of A,B,C to be split equally so as to have 3 sub batches of each as follows...



Group AD, BD, CD: Chai Tea [contains: Black tea, Cinnamon and or Cassia,clove, ginger, nutmeg, peppercorns, orange zest, etc...] Basically contains most of the flavors found in Spiced Rums

In these sub groups, I am trying to see if some of the desirable notes will effectively carry over to the final spirit as subtle nuances of higher end rums, without needing to "season" the spirit.





Group AE, BE, CE : 1 Ripe Banana and 2 ripe apples, or 2 ripe pears, or 2 cups of over-ripe plums... boiled then strained.

In these sub groups, I am trying to see if some of the desirable notes will effectively carry over to the final spirit as subtle nuances of higher end rums... perhaps encouraging an accelerated "Rancio Profile"... to see if the fruits incorporated into the wash will develop into something special and complementary.



As with the others, primary racking after 1 week into one 12 Imp Gal [54 liter] sterile glass Demi John... to be left on lees.

The remaining Wash approx. 10-12 liters once separated from Trub will get small batch stilled for initial sampling.

YES... I am preparing a 27 batch experiment [5 Gallon, 23 liters per batch]... so long as it is in Wash form, and I don't have more than 9 batches on hand at any one time I can stay Legal... Local laws are 200 Liters per family for personal consumption of fermented beverages, per year... I'll be only doing 6 to 9 batches at a time = 138 to 207 liters.



Well the first 9 are done fermenting and have been primary racked into the 54 liter Demi-Johns... I have to do small strip runs to have the fresh dunder to prepare the sub groups, and have initial taste results as fresh, then 1 month old white dog and oaked, then 3 month old white dog and oaked.

Initial observations:


Group A is my main control group. I have made this recipe unaltered over 30 times with consistent repeatable results. This always results in a medium bodied, rich, velvety rum... excellent as white, great sipping once aged on wood for several months... simple to make, better than most commercially available blends.



Group B: Fermented faster than A in all three batches all between 2 - 3 days... has a consistently richer aroma, much like an aged spirit... woody notes, hints of Banana and other fruits, Creme Brule and brandy... can't wait to see what comes off the stil.



Group C: Fermented Slower than A and was definitely the slowest of the primary groups at 8-9 days each. Once again, a noticeably rich aroma, much like an aged spirit... woody notes, hints of Banana and other fruits, Creme Brule and brandy, with a very subtle aroma of Balsamic Vinegar, or Light Soya Sauce, the kind they serve in High end Sushi Restaurants [perhaps this may have the basis for a rancio profile later down the line???]... can't wait to see what comes off the stil.

Conclusion:

The addition of Infected Dunder to the wash of Original Control Recipe, has a direct effect on fermentation times, 10% of the total wash producing a much faster finish, 20% slowing the finish to almost twice the required time. The addition of Infected Dunder appears to increase the production of various esters... Initial opinion based solely on Smell, is that there seems to be a positive influence in creating a fuller Rum Profile. Subsequent distillation may confirm if there are in fact any discernable benefits.

Cheers!!!

[blind drunk]

You've been busy!!

Thanks dude, can't wait till you run them

bd

[DrMalt]

First of all, I have set the following standards:

All batches have been born in a 5 imp gal [23 liter] sterile glass carboy

All batches started with identical quantities and quality of ingredients as follows...



2 KG of first quality Fancy Molasses = 1.2 KG of fermentable sugar

2 KG of Dark Brown Sugar [Cassonade] = 2 KG of fermentable sugar

1 Large Potato, or 2 medium, or 3-4 smaller ones [preferable to use soft sprouted ones, but not rotten]

15 grams [3 teaspoons]DAP

5 grams [1 teaspoon] Epsom Salts

2 Multi Vitamins/ Multi Minerals [finely crushed]

2 heaping table spoons of boiled spent yeast [Bakers]

10 Liters of Fresh Dunder from recent Strip Runs originating from this same recipe [Dunder is at the correct PH to invert sugars, if doing a first time go of this, add 3 teas of Acid Blend, or juice of 1 whole ripe lemon, or two limes, or 2 tablespoons of Vinegar (prefer Balsamic or Wine) to achieve a PH of approx 4.5]



15 grams [3 teaspoons] Yeast... use your Favorite [I'm using Bakers for cheap consitent results]


Water to fill

Results in a consistent dry wash @ 8.4% abv in 4 days [+/- 8 hours] @ 80 Degrees Fahrenheit [26* Celsius]

Cheers!!!

Additional text clipped to keep thread smaller.

Liquid_Luv, Good luck with this ambitious trial. I have one question, what is the potato for?

[blanikdog]

Harry's GGGP rum also used potato. I've not bothered with it but modified it to bring into the 21st century. Forget the reason for potato but someone in here will know. It's an ingredient used by the old shiners.

[Liquid_Luv]

I have mentioned this in previous posts... the potato has one incredible quality that carries through to the final spirits [although there are other benefits, this is the reason I incorporate them into every wash regardless of what I am making], it leaves an incredibly velvety mouth and subtle earthy sweetness unlike any other single ingredient. A sensation [not the taste]somewhat like warm milk straight from a cow's tattas [biological cow of course, not jacked on roids and antibiotics, like in the good ole days]

[Austin Nichols]

I'm keen to try the potato in my rum but not quite sure how or when to add it.

I have my sugar inverting in hot dunder now and am wondering if the potato should be added once cooled?
Do you grate it or leave it whole so you can change the potato after each ferment?

Cheers.

[Liquid_Luv]

Good evening Austin,

Nice to hear from you. When using the potato for mouth feel, it is almost the same as using to flavor, you only need to split them open, or quarter them [skin on, but shoots removed if any,wash], toss them in with enough water to remain covered... bring to rapid boil, then reduce heat and simmer for an hour... after that time, allow to cool, then toss or eat the potato and add the remaining liquid to your wash.

Not the same as when making traditional potato vodka... that's a whole different game. Let us know how you like it, and if you notice the difference it makes [perceived effect best noted on spirits after one month, then progressively better with time.] Enjoy!

Cheers!

[The Baker]

So all I have to do is use the water herself has cooked the spuds in!

(Though they might have to cook a bit longer than usual.)

[Liquid_Luv]

So all I have to do is use the water herself has cooked the spuds in!

(Though they might have to cook a bit longer than usual.)

For the "Mouth feel" Yes... the body of the potato is not required... only the essence and partly coverted starches/sugars remaining in the bath water... you can throw the baby out.

When using the taters for Vodka, we use the entire spud... completely converted and liquified into a sweet soup. Whole different game!

[Austin Nichols]

Good evening Austin,

Nice to hear from you. When using the potato for mouth feel, it is almost the same as using to flavor, you only need to split them open, or quarter them [skin on, but shoots removed if any,wash], toss them in with enough water to remain covered... bring to rapid boil, then reduce heat and simmer for an hour... after that time, allow to cool, then toss or eat the potato and add the remaining liquid to your wash.

Not the same as when making traditional potato vodka... that's a whole different game. Let us know how you like it, and if you notice the difference it makes [perceived effect best noted on spirits after one month, then progressively better with time.] Enjoy!

Cheers!

Thanks for the detailed reply mate, much appreciated

I didnt get around to adding a spud (potato) this time but I think I'll start a new wash tomorrow and give it a go, I've been using the Hook rum recipe and am really happy with it now but think I'm ready to move onto something more adventurous.

Cheers.

[Braz]

Potato Talk
(This subject might merit its own thread.)

I am going to try LL's suggestion to use a potato or two to enhance the texture (mouth feel) of my vodka. I don't always have a "soft but not rotten" potato around, but sometimes I have a lot of them in the bottom of the bin. So I'm thinking I could cook up a big ol' potfull when I have them and freeze the soup to use later.

I'm thinking of freezing quart size containers and using 1 qt. per a 5 gal. wash.

LL, may I have the benefit of your thoughts on this?

[Liquid_Luv]

Braz,

I am not sure what effect if any freezing would have on the taste or mouth feel... I always do this as needed when I prepare a new wash...

I do know that partial freezing, or cold storage of potato, does covert much of the starches to fermentable sugars... so perhaps it wouldn't be a problem... a small 23 liter test batch would be worth experimenting.

As well, I am guessing your vodka is basically a neutral sugar head wash... if so, it would benefit from using 2 - 4 times as much potato as what I use for all recipes as a mouth feel only deal... and a little of the body of the potato all mashed up, helps fermentation of an all sugar wash a great deal.

Now back to Rum... please!

Cheers!

[LWTCS]

Potato water in a fermented wash?
Or add to a wash to be fermented?

[LWTCS]

Also wonderin bout some jasimine rice water.

Hells bells,,,,,I ain't never gonna finish my "to do" list.

[Liquid_Luv]

Potato water in a fermented wash?
Or add to a wash to be fermented?

And to think... yah didn't even invite me over to help ya steal from them there angels

Dude, tole ya not sure how often... I always add the tater juice to all my washes... BTW. I'll be postin some info on the Rum experiment I've been doin... first few spirits are done... data is in... just too much to post tonight... back at ya!

[Austin Nichols]

Looking forward to reading your results LL

[Liquid_Luv]

Group A: No additions 3 batches

Group B: 10% Infected Dunder 3 batches

Group C: 20% Infected Dunder 3 batches

Primary racking after 1 week into one 12 Imp Gal [54 liter] sterile glass Demi John... to be left on lees. The remaining Wash approx. 10-12 liters once separated from Trub will get small batch stilled for initial sampling.

Well the first 9 are done fermenting and have been primary racked into the 54 liter Demi-Johns... I have to do small strip runs to have the fresh dunder to prepare the sub groups, and have initial taste results as fresh, then 1 month old white dog and oaked, then 3 month old white dog and oaked.

Initial observations:

Group A is my main control group. I have made this recipe unaltered over 30 times with consistent repeatable results. This always results in a medium bodied, rich, velvety rum... excellent as white, great sipping once aged on wood for several months... simple to make, better than most commercially available blends.

Group B: Fermented faster than A in all three batches all between 2 - 3 days... has a consistently richer aroma, much like an aged spirit... woody notes, hints of Banana and other fruits, Creme Brule and brandy... can't wait to see what comes off the stil.

Group C: Fermented Slower than A and was definitely the slowest of the primary groups at 8-9 days each. Once again, a noticeably rich aroma, much like an aged spirit... woody notes, hints of Banana and other fruits, Creme Brule and brandy, with a very subtle aroma of Balsamic Vinegar, or Light Soya Sauce, the kind they serve in High end Sushi Restaurants [perhaps this may have the basis for a rancio profile later down the line???]... can't wait to see what comes off the stil.

Conclusion:

The addition of Infected Dunder to the wash of Original Control Recipe, has a direct effect on fermentation times, 10% of the total wash producing a much faster finish, 20% slowing the finish to almost twice the required time. The addition of Infected Dunder appears to increase the production of various esters... Initial opinion based solely on Smell, is that there seems to be a positive influence in creating a fuller Rum Profile. Subsequent distillation may confirm if there are in fact any discernable benefits.

OK, so I finally got around to doing some stillin .... did a quick strip for each of the three groups [12 liter mini batches] then a nice slow spirit run on the low wines ... Fractions were seperated into shot glasses and were seperated by temperature and Alcometer readings; confirmed by smell and feel of experience

Group A: Yield 4% foreshots; 18% Heads; 54% Hearts; 12% Early Tails; 5% Tails; 4% Deep Tails; 3% Rum Oils ...
Typical yield of good quality medium bodied rum... good as white dog too


Group B: Yield 4% foreshots; 18% Heads; 56% Hearts; 10% Early Tails; 6% Tails; 3% Deep Tails; 3% Rum Oils...
Heads where noticeably fruitier and less chemical to the smell, less burn on the tongue as well, after airing for 24 hours, I decided the last fractions of this would do well in the blend with the hearts... Hearts seemed as though there is an added complexity that will develop well with some age... Tails started in a little later and only got bad well into the run, decided to use a larger portion of the early Tails in the blend as well. Overall, this wash results in more useable spirits for final blend of a medium to rich bodied rum... from previous experience, I feel this one will be awesome with a year of aging. This one would make a nice White Dog as well, just needs to be left alone for several weeks, except for the occasional aerating pump. Overall yields was everso slightly higher than control group A.


Group C: Yield 4% foreshots; 17% Heads; 56% Hearts; 8% Early Tails; 8% Tails; 3% Deep Tails; 4% Rum Oils...
This wash produced less Heads than either of the others... Heads where noticeably fruitier and less chemical to the smell, less burn on the tongue as well, after airing for 24 hours, I decided the last fractions of this would do well in the blend with the hearts... Hearts showed an even greater added complexity that must develop well with some age... Tails started noticeably later and only got bad well into the run, however there was much more happening in those Tails [plenty of flavors in there that I may try to capture later], I decided to use a much larger portion of the early Tails in the blend as well, as there were good flavors for a heavier Rum, and these will definately mellow and be real nice on oak. Overall, this wash results in more useable spirits for final blend of a medium to rich bodied rum... from previous experience, I feel this one will be awesome with two or more years of aging. Not what I would use for any White Dog...Overall yields was slightly higher than group B and moreso than control Group A... perhaps the extra Dunder converted more of the so called non fermentable sugars into something the yeast was able to then turn into more alcohol .


Conclusion:

The addition of Infected Dunder to the wash of Original Control Recipe, has a direct effect on both Yields as well as Flavors of the final spirit runs... The addition of Infected Dunder most certainly increase the overall yield of alcohol as well as the production of various esters... Initial opinion is that there is a positive influence in creating a fuller Rum Profile. Subsequent aeration and some age will likely confirm initial findings.

Cheers!

[Liquid_Luv]

Holiday Revelations with Luv…

Ok, so what’s up at the Luv Villa over the holidays?

Tell you what… Luv has come to the conclusion that although I have been enjoying this particular thread immensely, my contributions have been spread out over so many months that the only way to really follow it is to read everything from the beginning… and I have only posted 20-25% of the posts, it is difficult to pull it all together as new info is available to share, as previous posts fall too far back.

#1... I have decided to publish my Rum experiences and results of all experiments in a journal or e-book format, which I will likely share free to HD members late in 2011.

#2... I may soon [late 2012]venture into legally making my newest line of premium quality Rum available to the public under a series of trade mark name “Bastard Rum”… the line will include “Old Bastard Rum”, Lil Bastard Rum”, “Heartless Bastard Rum”, as well as others… Basically anything including the words Bastard and Rum, or any spirits with the name Bastard in the name are all under TM protection.

Cheers!

[Braz]

You have ambitious plans. Good on ya.

I haven't said so, but I have been reading your rum experiments and appreciate the effort you are putting into it. And the info you are providing.

[The Baker]

Thanks, Luv, I'll look forward to that.
Haven't made any rum yet but I certainly plan to, once I have the pot still set up again and the stored sugar wash and (mostly) low wines finished off.
BTW that Moscato on the other thread sounds like a great opportunity!

[Austin Nichols]

Well I guess we should keep this going even tho L_L has taken leave.

Did anyone else try the potato?

I did and it certainly did add some interesting qualities to my rum, It will be interesting to see how it goes after being on oak for a while.

I just added spud juice to my Hook rum that's gone about 10 generations, I've been adding 10 liters of dunder, 3 liters of molasses, 20grams vegimite and 3.5kg of raw sugar back into the 30 liter fermenter using half the lees for each consecutive wash. I'm not even sure if I should be calling it Hook rum anymore, but that's how it was born so I keep calling it that.

My new dunder pit has finally started to funk up nicely and is full again, cant wait to have a crack at running some through added to a spirit run, and I'm keen to hear peoples opinions on how much pit dunder they add to their spirit runs.

Cheers.

[LWTCS]

Did anyone else try the potato?

Got a batch on now.
letcha now.

[orpheus16]

Hi all,
I am very new to distilling in general, but decided to try a rum first instead of just a plain sugar wash because it seemed more interesting.
Looking at everything I could find for a VERY simple ingredients list;I kind of made a modified birdwatchers sugar wash...
Here is what i did.
8lbs brown sugar
12oz fancy molasses
one can tomato paste
pinch of Epsom salt
5gallons water
two packets bakers yeast
Basically tossed all the ingredients but water into a pot, added 3 gallons of water brought it to a boil, boiled it for 10 minutes or so then dumped it into my bucket fermentor with a gallon of water I had frozen in solo cups and then topped it off to make five gallons.

started blowing bubbles in less than an hour, still bubbling away 5 days in. It smells FANTASTIC!

Hope this adds something for people looking for a cheap simple wash, I will give updates. Sounds like I need to save the dunder from this to start my own pit!

[exon]

Hope to see your update, Orpheus.
exon

[blanikdog]

I haven't tried it yet AN, but I intend doing so as soon as I get my stock down to a hobby level. Seeing a cop walking up the drive the other week after the local action group (Harper Valley PTA) reported me to the cops over another matter which, I hasten to add, the cops told them to "go away" and to withdraw the report, gave me a bit of a scare. I dunno what they will try next.

Nothing quite like being a radical bastard surrounded by right wing, conservative mongrels to make life interesting.

[Austin Nichols]

I haven't tried it yet AN, but I intend doing so as soon as I get my stock down to a hobby level. Seeing a cop walking up the drive the other week after the local action group (Harper Valley PTA) reported me to the cops over another matter which, I hasten to add, the cops told them to "go away" and to withdraw the report, gave me a bit of a scare. I dunno what they will try next.

Nothing quite like being a radical bastard surrounded by right wing, conservative mongrels to make life interesting.

You cant give us a story like that without proper details....

Sooooo....... What did you do?

I gave a bloke down the road a few of my rums on new years eve and sent him home with a bottle, he said it was the nicest rum he'd tasted, then went into how his father in law has been making rum for years with a little blue still he bought from the brew shop.

Well today the bloke called around with two massive cooked mud crabs an empty bottle and 6kg's of brown sugar

So I guess my rum is good.

Cheers.

[blanikdog]

Shit, I thought I told y'all about my little confrontation with the HVPTA. Gotta go to lawn bowls now. I'll get back later.

[rad14701]

You did, blanikdog... Austin Nichols was snoozing at the time...