Feints added to a spirit run

[SirPuFFaLoT]

I asked the following in a different thread but it was unrelated to the thread topic so I decided to make a new thread.

I just finished my second spirit run of UJSM on my pot still. With both runs I have collected down to 40%. Instead of saving my feints for an all feints run I would like to add the feints into subsequent spirit runs. I was worried that by doing it this way i will keep getting more and more jars of heads/tails. I think HDBN answered my question in the other thread.

on the heads and tails in your feints jar...the heads do contain a higher% of lower alcohols, and the tails do have flavourful oils in them. But in lower proportions than what you started with, so the next run through will clean more and add flavour.
what i mean:
a 10% wash has 100% of the crap you want gone in it. when you toss the fores, a large percentage of the lower alcohols go with it and a large percentage of the higher alcohols (fuesal oils etc) are left behind in the boiler.

this is the the part your are neglecting: when you take a high ABV feints and dilute it with water or fresh wash, then take even more fores off and leave even more fuesals in the boiler

crap does not "build up" with each run, it is concentrated and removed from both ends of the run.

So what HDNB is saying is when I toss the fores and the late tails (everything lower than 40%) it is removing all the excess heads/tails that were added from the feints so there isn't a "build up". Am I understanding this correctly? So it is okay to keep recycling my feints (both heads and tails) into future spirit runs?

My other question is, should I be collecting lower than 40% on spirit runs? I stop there because it takes so damn long to get there. I thought about cranking the heat up a bit once I hit the 40% mark so I can get to 20% faster. How low do you guys go on spirit runs? And do you adjust the heat once you know your hearts have been collected?

I should mention, I am not blending tails into my hearts as of yet, I am keeping it simple for now collecting only hearts and tossing everything else into my feints jar.

thanks,
-PuFF

[Truckinbutch]

I gradually increase heat and coolant flow as the run progresses to maintain the same stream . I run down to 20% . Sometimes I add heads and tails to a run . Sometimes not . I have a long way to go on blending because of a poor palate .

[skow69]

Since the feints are the rejects you just kicked out of your spirit run, consider adding them in to your next stripping run. Give 'em a better chance to clean up, instead of forcing them back into your drinking stock. I use them to charge the thumper.

Putting feints in a spirit run is a technique that Ian Smiley teaches for intentionally extracting the flavors that are in the feints. Is that really what you want to do?

[skow69]

20% to 40% is the usual range for when to end the run. You just have to decide for your situation if the extra alcohol is worth your time and the cost of the fuel. Everything is a tradeoff.

[SirPuFFaLoT]

Putting feints in a spirit run is a technique that Ian Smiley teaches for intentionally extracting the flavors that are in the feints. Is that really what you want to do?

This sounds like something I would want. The tails have a really nice corn smell to them so I wouldn't mind more of that flavor in my hearts (without the blending). I'm going to add the feints to my spirit runs for a few generations and see how I like it.

I'll have to make a reflux still one of these days so I can get a decent neutral. I made some 'Apple Pie' for my wife and I can really taste the UJSM flavor in it.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge,
-PuFF

[skow69]

Sure. Actually, Ian Smiley recommends using a reflux still with that technique. You would prolly enjoy reading his book, "Making Pure Corn Whiskey." I think there is a PDF version online but I don't know if it is up to date. It has been through several revisions. Also Odin has a thread by the same name that is good reading.

Skol
skow

[Danespirit]

I gradually increase heat and coolant flow as the run progresses to maintain the same stream . I run down to 20% . Sometimes I add heads and tails to a run . Sometimes not . I have a long way to go on blending because of a poor palate .

Excactly the way i run too... All the way to 20% ABV.


SirPuFFaLoT , if you abort your run at 40% ABV already...you loose a lot of good alcohol that's in there.
If i run let's say my potstill, i add heads and tails (if they are ok) to my new strippingrun.
Now i might get a little more foreshots, but i recover all the good ethanol that is in there.
I am very generous with my foreshots. Why squeeze a few Ml more out of it, if it runs out by the liter afterwards...??
Also my heads cut is very generous, it won't be wasted as i add it to a new strippingrun.
There is no need to be greedy and push it to the limit, thereby one risks producing a second class endproduct.
Some whiskey makers add feints to the spiritrun. It requires a lot of experience and a product produced with consistent quality.
It doesn't take much and the whole run turns out poorer, than expected.
Some of the best flavours however, can hide in the tails..

[SirPuFFaLoT]

So, I had 1.5 gallons of feints from my previous spirit run. I added that 1.5 gallons (2 gallons when diluted to 40%) into todays spirit run (6-7 gallons of low wines + feints). It took half the day to get down to 80% ABV with over 2 gallons of heads. I now have over 3 gallons of feints and I collected just as much hearts as I had in my previous run (without adding the feints). So it doesn't seem that I have gained any ethanol by recycling my feints.

Not sure where I am going wrong but I didn't expect to double the amount of feints I have and not gain any additional hearts. If I add these feints to my next run then I would expect to have even more feints jars when done.

I collect hearts between 80-65% ABV, I am still getting the feel for making cuts by taste/smell so I'm using the 80-65% hearts cut for now.

Perhaps I will cut back on my wash sizes and do smaller spirit runs.


Perhaps I should only add tails to the spirit run so I don't add so much extra time to the run or cut back on my wash size.

[rad14701]

Stop making cuts by temperature... The fly in the ointment is that you think you can make cuts by temperature running wash, and you can't... And then you think you can make those same cuts running low wines and feints, and you can't... The proofs and temperatures will be entirely different between wash and low wines... Learn to do cuts the right way and you'll find that you have more hearts than you think you do... You're wasting valuable time and effort trying to make cuts the way you've been trying...

[HDNB]

2 gallons of heads? out of an 8 or 9 gallon charge?

either your still is a smearing pile o crap...or your definition of heads is not in stride with *normal* (whatever that is)

i could see 3 or 4 quarts, mayyybe 5 if you were brutal with the axe...but 8 is way out there.

a 2" rig running at 3L an hour should cleanup nicely. heads really should not take up much more than about 20% of the total distillate take off, including tails down to 20% or so.

meaning...if you pulled 5 gallons averaging 60%abv out of a 10 Gallon 30%ABV charge, the heads should be in the 1 gallon range. (these numbers are hypothetical for simplicity of math)

read kiwistiller's guide to cuts again.

[HDNB]

also...abv is as irrelevent to a head cut as is the temperature. I'll give you dollars to doughnuts that 1/2 of what you are calling heads is high grade, clean, sweet, high abv hearts.

you can pull hearts at 83 abv no problem. (or any other number...almost... them lower 50's and down can get a little skanky)

[SirPuFFaLoT]

I guess I have really shorted myself by not taking the time to learn how to do cuts properly. I was stuck at 83/82% ABV for about 3-4 hours today thinking it was all heads....
Okay, my next spirit runs I am going to do smaller and take the time to learn the difference between heads and hearts. I have read kiwi's thread so many times I have it memorized but I have yet to put it to practice. Granted, I have been collecting in small jars and have recorded every jar's starting and ending ABV in a notebook but I haven't taken the necessary steps after that to determine cuts (diluting and tasting).

Thanks once again for setting me right. Next weeks run i'll take the proper time in deciding cuts.

[Truckinbutch]

Nothing I need to add here except to bob my head in agreement .

[Danespirit]

SirPuFFaLoT..is it possible that you don't take enough foreshots asside?
The numbers you wrote are really way off the scale.
Now..take your foreshots off by the drip..yes..even on a strippingrun.
On a spiritrun it's even more important to draw off your foreshots slowly.
Doing this, ensures that you won't be smearing it into the run, causing the quantity of heads to be bigger.
A potstill will "smear" during the entire run. Therefore it's important to get rid of the foreshots at ever opportunity one gets to do it.
The more you get rid of, the less heads you get.
Less heads = more hearts

[SirPuFFaLoT]

SirPuFFaLoT..is it possible that you don't take enough foreshots asside?
The numbers you wrote are really way off the scale.
Now..take your foreshots off by the drip..yes..even on a strippingrun.
On a spiritrun it's even more important to draw off your foreshots slowly.
Doing this, ensures that you won't be smearing it into the run, causing the quantity of heads to be bigger.
A potstill will "smear" during the entire run. Therefore it's important to get rid of the foreshots at ever opportunity one gets to do it.
The more you get rid of, the less heads you get.
Less heads = more hearts

I have been tossing 300 mL of foreshots in both stripping and spirit runs. My stripping run is a 10gal charge and spirit runs are 6-8gals. I haven't taken anything slow in stripping runs, I blast the flame, toss 300mL and keep the rest. For the Spirit run, I blast it until I see the first drip then turn the flame to as low as it will go. I'd say about 50-100 ML drips out until a fine stream finally forms.

Should I take out more foreshots?

[HDNB]

the good news is it is still in the feints jar (bucket? drum?) sounds like it's quite a collection anyway.

it sounds like you are running it right to me (at least the first part anyway) i'd take a 500mL fore off the spirit run myself.
sounds like you are just a bit over cautious (worried?) about them heads. they are going to be like jet fuel at 83% so you have to dilute them to smell/taste...

so charge it up and add some fresh wash to 30-35% throw some heat at it...just before it starts to produce dial it back a bit, and like Dane sez...take the fores slower, maybe 20 minutes for a pint.
then increase the heat a bit until you are producing a quart in just around 20 minutes. collect in pints (one per 10 min) collect at the same heat...until you see oils starting to form on the distillate. Then turn up the heat a bit more and then collect another 2 quarts and shut it down.
don't measure the abv... just cover them with some coffee filters or paper towel and leave them in still-air place for at least 24 hours. i leave mine sometimes 5-7 days, but if it's warm or the air moves..you'll lose lots.
go back and taste the middle jar by diluting at least the same amount of water. go do something else for 1/2 hour. come back and SMELL and taste the second jar. go away for a half hour and then come back and cut everything that smells and tastes like jar 2...if you get all the way to 3.5 quarts in and it still smells and tastes headsy, take the rest of the day off and give another try the next.
set your baseline with the middle jar.

on the tails side the oils will be obvious, but some will smell and taste good. If you think you want to blend with them, strain them through a paper towel, it will suck up the oils. otherwise, back into the feints jar with the heads you cut from the other end.

once you have selected (about 60% of the total collected) distillate for hearts keepers. blend it all into a big vessel. leave it sit for a couple days. pour off a 3/4 full jar and mix in small amounts of the tails you like...leave it for a day and see if you still like it.

if so... blend a proportional amount of the same jar(s) to the balance, and age it up. take notes, because changing the proportions will make big and sometimes undesired changes.

the aging part is key. it can take at least a day and often up to a week for blends to fully intermingle and settle in. don't panic if you mix a bit and it tastes awful. give it 5 days and have another try.
Once you have a palatable blend, the more time you give it the more you will be rewarded.

see oaking the T-Pee way for coloring it up to a whiskey. i prefer a low temp heavy toast and heavy char, but these are another set of experiments.

[HDNB]

a glencairn glass will help you immeasurably.

[SirPuFFaLoT]

That is great help HDNB. I have been depending too much on my parrot to tell me what is what; wrongly. Next run I'll lose the parrot and collect directly into jars. I think I will also do a smaller charge for my spirit run (I only have 24 pint jars).

You are correct, I was a bit worried that I will ruin the final product with too much heads. However, I think my main problem is me trying to take a shortcut using ABV to decide what is what. I just need to slow down and learn how to make proper cuts.

Thanks again for your help.

EDIT: I had to google GLENCAIRN glass. I'm going to add that in my letter to Santa Clause (aka wife).

[still_stirrin]

......Next run I'll lose the parrot and collect directly into jars....

Ding....Ding....Ding! Winner!

.... I think I will also do a smaller charge for my spirit run (I only have 24 pint jars)....

You know, the grocery stores and big box stores have more...a dozen for $10.
ss

[midlife-u-turn]

My cent and half (I'm new so not worth a full 2 cents) is keep the parrot and use the pint jars. I take notes throughout the run on temp and proof and drip the parrot into pint jars. That way I know what is in each jar and then use my nose and taste as I go through each jar to make my cuts.

[HDNB]

here is a cheat:

use 2 quart jars for the start. gonna be heads in that quantity anyway. then switch to pints for the transition, say 5 pints. then swithc back to quarts for the hearts. when you feel the hearts are getting close to tails (mathematically or with a bit of oil debris)...switch to pints for 4 jars, then run the last bit while with the heat turned up in the big feints jar, just to milk the last bit o booze out.

20 minute jar changes are easier to manage once you get the idea of where the transitions are.

[SirPuFFaLoT]

...go away for a half hour and then come back and cut everything that smells and tastes like jar 2...

Why jar 2? Are you considering the foreshots as jar 1? Or is jar 2 a better sample of heads compared to jar 1? Perhaps less fores smeared in?

[HDNB]

no, fores are fores. jar 1 will smell like shit. (well... actually like solvents.) jar 2 has an odour that is "headsy" (solvent mixed with ethanol) more subtle.

you are understanding now though...heads are just fores smearing through in lesser and lesser quantity until hearts take over.

those smells should be negligible after 3 quarts on the size of wash you are running. of course every wash, every still and every stiller is going to be a bit different so you got to take this all as a jumping off point and learn. thats why small fractions help the learning process. after a while of quality booze and paying attention when you drink it (as opposed to swilling it down with some cola sugar water to get a buzz) your taste buds will start talking to you.

[skow69]

after a while of quality booze and paying attention when you drink it (as opposed to swilling it down with some cola sugar water to get a buzz) your taste buds will start talking to you.

That's notable quotable right there. Damn good advice. Bam. Done.

[SirPuFFaLoT]

Hey HDNB, I followed your advise and had a very successful spirit run without using my parrot. I let it sit for a day and did cuts tonight. I was pretty happy with my heads cut. I smelled and tasted every jar and it seemed easy enough to distinguish where the heads started to fall off. I had it down to 3 jars so i just decided on the middle jar. Jar 11 was the cut off and 12 went into my hearts. I had 54 jars with 12oz in each (4.9 gal total) so about 20% is what I determined was heads. much better than my last attempt. The final jar, jar 54, was around 15% ABV.

The hard part was actually determining tails. My cut off was jar 36 which was 65% ABV. Jar 37 was at 63% but it's taste was a bit to far from my baseline hearts sample. I didn't feel as solid about this cut as I did the heads cut though. I could have made the cut anywhere within 5-7 jars and probably been just as happy. I seen 65% and decided to go with that but I feel like I cheated.

Determining the heads cut seems to be the easier of the two cuts. At least easier in the sense that I had a good baseline for what 'pure' heads and 'pure' hearts should taste/smell like. I am using a UJSM mash and I'm only interested in making whiskey. Knowing this, how would you best determine the tails cut?

[raketemensch]

Putting feints in a spirit run is a technique that Ian Smiley teaches for intentionally extracting the flavors that are in the feints. Is that really what you want to do?

I think this is the cause of more confusion than anything else in this craft. It seems that the majority of people are pursuing neutral, so things get extra confusing for people pursuing flavor.

Coming into these forums as a newbie, I thought that the Boka was all I would ever want or need, and that the lowly pot still was for plebes. Meanwhile, I'm getting into all of this for flavor from the wash.

So basically, on top of the learning curve for learning to distill, there's also a learning curve to figuring out:

a) Which path you want to pursue, and
b) How to translate everything you read into whether the poster is pursuing flavor or neutral

Then, of course, you get into doing infusions and making liqueurs, which can happen at the end of either path...

People are pursuing different goals, so always keep in mind which path you're pursuing, post which path you're pursuing when asking questions, and read the advice/documentation/wikis/books keeping in mind which path the writer is on.

[skow69]

There ya go, rak. Now you're getting to the fun part. Hell, if it was easy it would get boring, and everybody's brother-in-law would make good liquor, so I wouldn't have to.

Making the cuts can be intimidating in the beginning, but practice makes it easier and more fun. It's my favorite sport now. But I rarely end up with more than 50% hearts. Maybe my washes are dirty. Everything gets recycled, whiskey feints into the column still at 1 pint per gallon on the spirit run, and neutral feints into the thumper on the stripping run.

[thecroweater]

Everybody sucks their peppermint different Eh . I start collecting fores in wee small meat paste jars maybe a hundred mls or less, then I got a heap of 200 to 250 ml jars that I may stick with or for a large high yield run I may change to 500 ml jars for what I know for fact to be hearts. I only ever use 700ml jars for late tails and backins. 50 to 100 mls foreshots aside cuts on stripping runs is for fools and new chums, its a complete waste of product and effort.
My sense of smell is crap so what I do is get a table spoon and tea spoon and part fill the table spoon with rain water and from the middle jar take a teaspoon full and add to the water and taste. This is the optimum middle heart flavour. So then move say four jars away and test, all good then add to ya blending barrel/tub/vessel and so on

[Hound Dog]

There ya go, rak. Now you're getting to the fun part. Hell, if it was easy it would get boring, and everybody's brother-in-law would make good liquor, so I wouldn't have to.

Making the cuts can be intimidating in the beginning, but practice makes it easier and more fun. It's my favorite sport now. But I rarely end up with more than 50% hearts. Maybe my washes are dirty. Everything gets recycled, whiskey feints into the column still at 1 pint per gallon on the spirit run, and neutral feints into the thumper on the stripping run.

I am similar. I don't collect in tiny jars, I just do brutal cuts and recycle. If I get something I don't like I just keep collecting and it goes in the feints collection. I save all mine up for all feints neutral runs that I reflux the crap out of for an extra clean spirit. Feints are my neutral ferment

[Odin]

My two cents: on a potstill I don't rerun feints as is. You just get more smearing and bigger heads and tails cuts the next run, because the separation power of a potstill is, well, limited (like 1 distillation cycle). Still, since those heads and tails contain lots of good ethanol, what I do is hydroseparate them I dilute them to 17%, so heads will sink off and the oily tails will start to float on top. I syphon out the middle 50% and rerun that with the next spirit run. The feints container gets the new heads and tails cut and because heads and tails concentrate (remember, you take out 50% of pretty good ethanol after hydroseparation) better, you can even see them (if you have a glass feints receiver): foggy bottom (sorry) and oilsy on top. No pun intended.

Regards, Odin.