Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

[filb]

Hi guys does anyone know where to get the diamonium phosphate in australia im on the gold coast and my local HBS dont sell it so any where else i should try stockfeed suppliers maybe any help please Or is there an alternative product i could use
thanks

[Twinnie]

Hi, I'm on my second run with this recipe and I'm having the same problem I had with my last one. It fizzes quite a lot and moves quickly at first but then stalls after a few days and I can't get it going again. When it stalled during my first wash it stalled at around 1045 so I gave it some time then added more yeast and it went off again to about 1010 before stopping for good. I gave it about a week and gave up, hoping to get something that would go down well with a lot of mixer (it didn't, I chucked the lot). This next time round I tried to be more reasonable, I started with 1060 instead of 1080 and I pitched the yeast at a lower temperature. This time it made it to 1040 before getting stuck again. I'd pitched this early December and frankly I got a little distracted at the time and left this in the spare room heater still on and all, before finding it again a few weeks later. Upon checking it I noticed it had dropped to around 1030 so I left it going. I checked it again today and it's around 1022 now. Still going but really slowly. I added some more yeast earlier today with another 1/2 tsp of DAP but it's not gone off like it did when I topped up the yeast in the last wash.

I must be making some kind of fundamental error for it to happen twice, I'm pretty new to this but I had success with Birdwatchers sugar wash a few months ago. The difference between the two is that I'm using an aquarium heater this time whereas last time I was using a halogen heater I nicked off my girlfriend. That had the whole room nice and warm whereas I set the aquarium heater to 28c and wrapped the whole thing up in an old duvet. One thing I've noticed is that the area around the cable right above where the heater is located in the bucket there's usually plenty of bubbles. I've just turned the heater up to 30c to see if that helps but I'm worried about getting the yeast sitting around the heater a bit too hot as I'm not sure how gentle the heater is. I didn't want to gradually kill off all the yeast.

Secondly I'm a little concerned about the acidity of the water. I just checked it and it looks like it's around 4.5ph-5ph. I've read elsewhere that that's a good ph but from reading other posts on here it sounds like it may be a little low. I didn't add the gypsum as a map on the internet suggested I already lived in a hard water area but from checking the ph of the tap water I used it looks like it's probably between 7ph and 7.5ph and I did add the citric acid according to the recipe so maybe it's not as hard as I thought it was but would that difference in ph really slow it down so much?

Can anyone help me out here? My housemates are nagging me to go back to turbo washes just so I can at least get some alcohol going, even if it isn't great, but I'd rather crack this.

[bgrizzle]

- Temp seems ok. I do wonder about the aquarium heater. I've never used one, but I would think it would get hot. Maybe use a heating pad instead.
- pH seems ok, maybe a little low. I would cut the citric acid in half if the pH of your water is 7.5.
- For whatever reason, the yeast are either dying or not getting enough nutrients.
Possible reasons:
- aquarium heater burning them... in an aquarium there is constantly moving water???? I dont think thats the case because so many people use them.
- maybe the DAP is no good, or was mislabeled?? If this is the case you could add some tomato paste to see if this gets the yeast going.

What type of yeast are you using?

[rad14701]

pH is fine... Temperature is fine...

Sounds like either a nutrient problem or something is killing off your yeast... Simply adding more yeast won't resolve the underlying problem...

I'd suggest adding different nutrients to see if that helps... Plain tomato paste without spices and/or oil should help, as would just about any non-sweetened cereal you may have kicking around, like All Bran, Corn Flakes, Cheerios, etc...

If you can't manage to salvage this wash then try a different recipe in an effort to narrow down the possible cause...

[Twinnie]

Thanks for the responses, looks like I'm using a dodgy yeast nutrient then which isn't something I would have suspected. I just checked my wash again a few hours later and it's up to 30c now and bubbling a little more but it's still at about 1021 and not exactly going nuts.

The exact nutrient I'm using is Young's Yeast Nutrient and the ingredients read:

Diammonium Phosphate
Ammonium Sulphate

It's sold right alongside the starter kits in a hardware shop in town so I wouldn't be surprised if you told me it had something in it that proper DAP shouldn't have, on the front of the box it does say 'For vigorous fermentation'.

I'll leave it til I get back from work tomorrow and see how it's doing. I assume it won't be doing much but I'd just like to make sure it isn't the temperature (cos I've got that suspicion stuck in my head now and I'd just like to confirm it isn't affecting it) and if it's roughly the same I'll whack some tomato paste in there.The yeast would still be fine wouldn't it, or would it need some more?

PS. I do have some vitamin B tablets that I bought because I remember reading that they can be useful as nutrient but I don't think I could find the post afterwards. Am I getting mixed up here?

[rad14701]

PS. I do have some vitamin B tablets that I bought because I remember reading that they can be useful as nutrient but I don't think I could find the post afterwards. Am I getting mixed up here?

If there is dead yeast in the wash it should provide all the vitamin B that any healthy yeast might need...

What yeast strain are you using...???

[Twinnie]

It's just bakers yeast, Allinsons to be specific (a UK brand).

[bgrizzle]

I really think this is a nutrient issue...

The yeast is working, and then slowly it stops...

yeast will not stop working if they are fed and kept warm... you are keeping it warm...

I would add some tomato paste... I really think this will fix the problem...

Like my first post said... maybe the dap (NUTRIENT) is no good...

Add paste or cereal like RAD suggested...

I think it will finish in a few days with proper heat and nutrients...

[Twinnie]

If it is the nutrient I'm going to have to sniff out some more DAP as this brand is pretty much the only one you see wherever you go in the UK. I've seen a few unbranded ones on eBay though, I'll have to try them.

[bgrizzle]

Forget about the dap... throw in some tomato paste.

['SideWinder']

Can anyone help me quickly?
I don't have any test strips to check my pH level.
If the Wash has too low or too high pH level will this affect the taste of the alcohol after distilled? (I know it affects the speed & the Wash can get stuck etc)
The wash has been going for over 1week now and it's hit .993 so I racked it into another fermenter.
Reason I haven't run it yet is because it's got a really strong smell... I was going to use a food grade tube and suck till it comes out but as soon as I sucked the air from the tube it burned my throat etc (didn't get liquid only gas). There was no way I could do that so I used a Wine syphon and got it out. It should only be ~10%. It's a 100L fermenter btw.
and I followed the instructions except multiplied to get my 80L wash. and used less yeast (1 cup).
It's been sitting on 26-28C. The wash looks like a salmon pink colour maybe bit lighter.

Is there something from with my wash? pH level possibly?

[Twinnie]

Evening guys,

I got home to some bubbles but not really any progress so I whacked in some of Tesco's finest tomato purée (about half a cup to the best of my abilities (not a measurement really used in the UK)) and gave it a good stir. Checked it about an hour later and not much was happening but then I have no idea how long it will take for it to have an effect, longer I would have guessed. I'll have another look when I get back from work tomorrow and come on her for a good whinge if it's not working.

Thanks.

[sparky marky]

Evening guys,

I got home to some bubbles but not really any progress so I whacked in some of Tesco's finest tomato purée (about half a cup to the best of my abilities (not a measurement really used in the UK)) and gave it a good stir. Checked it about an hour later and not much was happening but then I have no idea how long it will take for it to have an effect, longer I would have guessed. I'll have another look when I get back from work tomorrow and come on her for a good whinge if it's not working.

Thanks.

I'm from uk too and for the nutrient issue maybe you should use something called "tronozymol". It's a brand name nutrient made by richies and is just a mix of alot of DAP and a bit of Epsom salt (which this recipe also calls for! 2 birds, 1 stone)
I use 3-4 teaspoons in 25 liters with good results!

As for the yeast I have tried allinsons bakers in those big 60 or so gram tins and my washes have stuck so iv blamed the yeast and moved on! Haha!
I tried fresh bakers yeast from the supermarket and that didn't ever stick and fermented VERY fast (if you ask them at the bakery counter they cut a slab off and don't charge!!).

Now I'm giving ec 1118 a go!!

[rad14701]

DAP alone is does not provide enough nutrients for a plain sugar wash, but it is a good addition to other nutrients... Think about it, adding DAP to a grape wine recipe only augments the nutrients already present in the grapes themselves... DAP doesn't provide a complete, well balanced, diet for the yeast colony...

Hopefully, the tomato puree didn't contain anything other than "tomatoes" for ingredients... You don't want the kind that has all of the additional spices and oil...

[puig]

Evening guys,

I got home to some bubbles but not really any progress so I whacked in some of Tesco's finest tomato purée (about half a cup to the best of my abilities (not a measurement really used in the UK)) and gave it a good stir. Checked it about an hour later and not much was happening but then I have no idea how long it will take for it to have an effect, longer I would have guessed. I'll have another look when I get back from work tomorrow and come on her for a good whinge if it's not working.

Thanks.

I think i know you ? From Ebay ....
Ive been using this wash for the last couple of months with the same yeast as yours tesco's 67p, are you sure your using real DAP i had to order mine from the states in 1kg bags .. All i use is 3.5kg of suger , 1tsp of DAP and a tin of active yeast and its done in about 5 -6 days ... Are you sure everything is sterile ? Including the heater ? are you using airlocks ? ... What i use is a double elec blanket and i can get 9 , 6 gallons tubes all bubbling at once .... Drop me a pm or email and i will send you some DAP , and get rid of that heater and clean everything !!

Threeruffians

[BrewinFool]

too late for the nasty turbo,

how about the POSW? added 2 tsp nutes, still not restarting. Should I add a bit more distillers yeast and if so how much?

Thanks!

What is the SG of the wash now...???

What is the pH of the wash...???

There has to be a reason for having issues with more than one wash recipe... Temperature, pH, and infections are the three most common reasons for slow or stalled ferments...

Turbo is fine I think, I just need to clear/filter it. Not clearing on its own which is why I think they give you that clearing crap with it.

POSW SG is ~1.01 from 1.068 and still tastes very sweet. Haven't pH'd, started with near neutral(bottled water). Agitating and adding a little energizer tehn racking back to a fermenter did nothing. I would like to re-pitch at some amount just not sure what(using plain Distillers yeast). I also suspect temps on the initial ferment as it sat at ~68F. I will run the mats this time...

UPDATE:
Last night I took my 1000ml flask for yeast starters and combined 650ml of RO water with apx 2TBSP of tomato paste, 2 TBSP of distillers yeast and ~6 TBSP of sugar at about 75F shook to aerate over 15 minutes.

I popped the top on the POSW which has been sitting dormant for a couple weeks now even after the addition of just distillers yeast at 2TBSP about a week ago. I took a SG and got 1.011 at 60F and pitched the flask. I replaced the cover on the bucket covered the airlock hole and shook the piss out of it to agitate/aerate. I applied to seed heating mats to the sides and covered with towels.

This morning the top of the bucket is at ~84-85F and lock is pumping every 9-10 seconds Thanks rad! I'll let you know where we finish out. I think we will strip this wash and run two more and strip to do a spirit run as outlined in kiwistillers operating a CM still post.

[Twinnie]

I think i know you ? From Ebay ....
Ive been using this wash for the last couple of months with the same yeast as yours tesco's 67p, are you sure your using real DAP i had to order mine from the states in 1kg bags .. All i use is 3.5kg of suger , 1tsp of DAP and a tin of active yeast and its done in about 5 -6 days ... Are you sure everything is sterile ? Including the heater ? are you using airlocks ? ... What i use is a double elec blanket and i can get 9 , 6 gallons tubes all bubbling at once .... Drop me a pm or email and i will send you some DAP , and get rid of that heater and clean everything !!

Threeruffians

Well I've got an eBay account along with 99% of the human population but despite looking for plenty of stuff on there I think I've always ended up buying stuff locally. I read this message half way through making my wash (using the tronozymol and fresh yeast) so I'm afraid I'd gone a bit too far to seriously sterilise the bucket. I did get everything else sterilised though, until read your post and the one below it I always thought infection was something for the careless and unlucky. My workplace is no doctor's surgery but everything gets a good clean. The bucket only got hot water and Fairy liquid but everything else got Milton.

I'm not using an actual airlock but it has a tight lid on it that just leaves room for the heater cable but it gets wrapped up in a duvet as well to keep it warm. Why should I get rid of the aquarium heater though? I like the way it regulates the temperature because my house can be all over the place sometimes and it is winter at the moment so it cools a lot during the day when I'm at work. I thoroughly sterilised it and I hear a lot of other people have success with them.

I didn't get quite enough yeast from the stingy woman at Asda but it was nearly there so I just used it anyway and let it reproduce. It's taking a touch longer to get going really really fizzy but it's definitely getting more active over the 24 hours since I pitched the yeast.

I'll report on here how it's going.

[puig]

Sorry Twennie i thought i new you ! , No why i said to remove your heater from the wash was you need a sterile environment ive been making ales and wines for years and trust me yeast is very temperamental at the best of times , in regards to your heater is there a gap where the lead enters your tub / barrel if yes then bacteria can enter and infect your wash .. Your fermentation vessel should 100% sterile with a clip on lid and an air lock "NO Holes or gaps" ... This is my fav wash its so fast , easy and simple to do .. start to finish 5-6 days

[Twinnie]

I'll do my best to bung up the hole with something then. I thought the aquarium heater was a stroke of genius when I first had the idea of using one but upon buying it I almost immediately noticed that beer belt thing for about 50p more than I paid for the heater. It seems to be going fine at the moment though, I kept the original wash and I'm going to use the yeast cake from this wash with a couple of teaspoons of Tronozymol if it work and try and kick start this one again. If I stick the original somewhere cold and let it clear would I have a shot at restarting it or should I just leave it as it is?

[sparky marky]

I'll do my best to bung up the hole with something then. I thought the aquarium heater was a stroke of genius when I first had the idea of using one but upon buying it I almost immediately noticed that beer belt thing for about 50p more than I paid for the heater. It seems to be going fine at the moment though, I kept the original wash and I'm going to use the yeast cake from this wash with a couple of teaspoons of Tronozymol if it work and try and kick start this one again. If I stick the original somewhere cold and let it clear would I have a shot at restarting it or should I just leave it as it is?

How many sugar washes do you have at the moment? What are the hydrometer readings? If it is 1.000 or below then they are finished and ready to be cleared and run. If they are above tuis they need more time. As long as they are still moving they will get there in the end

[puig]

Ive never been a fan of reusing yeast when Allinson bakers yeast which is what i use for this cost just 67p from Asda ,Tesco's .... Also try and find a Cosco near you i get 15kg of suger for £8.56 ... So in total yeast+suger your looking at about £2.50/£3.00 for a 6 gallon wash ... Then next you want some DAP , i think the last time i ordered i paid about £14 for a Kg + shipping but it will last along long time.

[Twinnie]

It's just the two washes at the moment and the old one's about 1.020 at the moment so definite no go, I either give it a chance to keep drop or I chuck it. By 'leave it as it is' I meant leaving it in moderate warmth and not clearing and syphoning the wash from the cake before introducing the yeast cake from the other wash.

I just checked the new one I put on a couple of days ago as well. It was 1.050 this morning from starting at 1.075 and it's a smidgen over 1.040 about 12 hours later so this one is really barrelling along. Should I lower the temperature later to make sure I don't stress the yeast or can I leave it as it is?

[puig]

No it will be fine thats about correct anyway about 5 days ?? Tronozymol will push the yeast anyway.

['SideWinder']

Finally got pH strips to test my Wash.

I've got a reading of ~3.5. The wash is done.. its sat around 2+weeks (got to .993) because I had a 25L Birdwatchers waiting to be run. It smelt rather strong so I thought maybe the wash is too acidity but 3.5 is a low result right? anything from with having too low? the overwhelming smell was when you took a big whiff from the opening it burned your nose/throat (100L fermenter). I've started doing the runs.. just wanted a confirmation that the 3.5 isn't to harm/effect anything.

[puig]

3.5ph for a finished wash is fine mate ..

['SideWinder']

3.5ph for a finished wash is fine mate ..

Awesome
Between what levels are safe levels? (so I know for next time)

[puig]

I found on this wash if i leave out the citric acid my start Ph is round about the 6.1- 6.3 ph mark this is quite high and i would not go higher , BUT it will finish on the 3.3 mark at .998 every time in 5-6 days , so im quite happy with a higher start Ph .... If your wash gets too Acidic or Alkaline your yeast will just stall , theres really no dangerous levels.

['SideWinder']

I found on this wash if i leave out the citric acid my start Ph is round about the 6.1- 6.3 ph mark this is quite high and i would not go higher , BUT it will finish on the 3.3 mark at .998 every time in 5-6 days , so im quite happy with a higher start Ph .... If your wash gets too Acidic or Alkaline your yeast will just stall , theres really no dangerous levels.

Ah k. I was just hoping that it wouldn't make me or someone else sick by drinking it.
I haven't had any of my washes stall yet. so I'm pretty happy about that.

[snuffy7]

Wineo
my fermenter is for 15 gallon. I will adjust all the ingredients accordingly. Do you think 1/4 cup distillers yeast is enough or should I up the yeast too.
Thanks

[carolina moonshiner]

My wash has been working for 12 hours now . Does these look ok to everyone that has tried this wash ? Wineo said to leave head space so it does not foam out but as you can see the cap is going down not up is this ok . The air lock is working like crazy