Higgins 4" 3 sieve plate column build

[NormandieStill]

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It's generally accepted that the lowest reflux ratio you can achieve with a CCVM head is 50%. I guess if you had a larger diameter port you could theoretically go further down but with a standard Tee you're not going lower than 50%.

If you build your coil into an endcap and put a needle valve on the water supply you could turn it into a CM head which would let you get all the way down to 0%.
...

Currently I'm running the water output of my shotty to the input of the RC coil, but I can change that pretty easily so I can control water input to both RC and PC independently.

So you're saying to put a TC end cap on my RC coil so that cap engages when the coil is all the way down, right? Like this?
CCVM to CM.png

I like it. That should be an easy modification that will still allow it to function properly when used to make neutral with my CCVM.

With my flute I could start using it as a CCVM, draw off fores and heads, then lower it back down and turn the water down to manage reflux ratio as a CM. And since there is no valve, the vapor path is still open.

Anyone see any negatives with this proposed change?

That's exactly what I was thinking. You will probably want to ensure that you keep that cap cracked open in CCVM mode even at full reflux. I can't think of a good physics-based reason but it just feels like it shouldn't be closed completely.

The other fun thing is that by putting your coil in a Tee and feeding vapour from a potstill in through the side, you now have a dimroth condenser which should be able to knock down a fair amount when stripping washes.

[Sporacle]

With my flute I could start using it as a CCVM, draw off fores and heads, then lower it back down and turn the water down to manage reflux ratio as a CM. And since there is no valve, the vapor path is still open.

Anyone see any negatives with this proposed change?

The only issues I can see would be controlling the actual RC once in production mode.
I know that Shady has built a a number of different versions of these, so his advice will be invaluable.

Personally I would have the coil totally below the offtake leaving it fully exposed and invest in a good quality needle valve. Allow the needle valve to do the control for the reflux.
That may require an extension of the inlet and outlet arms.

This will allow you to regulate the flow to control reflux more easily, the adjustments are tiny.

Great problem solving Normandie

[shadylane]

With my flute I could start using it as a CCVM, draw off fores and heads, then lower it back down and turn the water down to manage reflux ratio as a CM. And since there is no valve, the vapor path is still open.

Anyone see any negatives with this proposed change?

I haven't tried doing that yet.
Things I see that might be a problem is the extra height and the RC is going to be way too big for use as a dephleg.

[Setsumi]

Myself run CCVM on my flutes. I doubt you will taste a difference between product from a CCVM and CM head. I am with Shady, not that I have any experience with CM.

The flavour in a flute comes in a large part from the action on the plates. Yes, reflux does clean the product but the plates concentrate flavours... or that is how I see them.

[shadylane]

Myself run CCVM on my flutes. I doubt you will taste a difference between product from a CCVM and CM head. I am with Shady, not that I have any experience with CM.

+1
I figure the still head makes no difference in taste.
All the still head does is control the take off rate.

The majority of my experience has been with CM and LM still heads.

[higgins]

Thanks for all the input, especially to Normandie for his great idea.

I'm going to discard my 3/8" CSST coil (difficult to get thru and attached to end cap) and make a double wound 1/4 OD copper coil, so it will be a bit before I run it again.

[Setsumi]

Thanks for all the input, especially to Normandie for his great idea.

I'm going to discard my 3/8" CSST coil (difficult to get thru and attached to end cap) and make a double wound 1/4 OD copper coil, so it will be a bit before I run it again.

Myself would stay with the 3/8. It packs salt better and it cleans the salt out quicker.... although!&?

[higgins]

I finished making the new RC coil - a double wound 1/4" OD coil about 8" in length with a copper disk soldered on top. I tried the process of winding a scrap of 1/4 OD around a 1/2" iron pipe mandrel without filling it first, and it flattened the tubing too much. So I straightened my new tubing, filled with salt, and crimped the ends before trying again. It went pretty well this time, and after trimming the ends I was able to push water thru it right away. Success! I set up the mandrel like dixiedrifter using 2 wooden pillow blocks.

SO much yet to learn. Bear with me - I'm going to describe the whole run and ask for feedback.

I combined my distillate from the first run with the leftover stillage from that run to reconstitute the low wines (9 gal @ 31%), then ran it again yesterday.
The ways I see to control takeoff rate is to either control RC water flow rate or power level. I chose to keep power constant so RC flow rate is the only variable. Q: Is it better to control reflux or power? or both?
I measured water flow rate thru the RC coil as an indicator of reflux rate. Q: is this a good measure of reflux rate?
The flute was configured as shown in a previous pic in this thread, but with a 2" x 6" SS spool added below the 2" sight glass (mainly to raise the takeoff point below the shotty. I used the new RC coil and clamped it in place so I could run it as CM start to finish. Note that there is still an open vapor path to the PC, so there is no danger of pressure build up

I'm collecting 12 oz (~350 ml) per jar, 32 jars. My first run was 15 oz (~440 ml) per jar, 25 jars.
I began heating at 100% power (3500W) until the plates started loading (45 min), then reducing to 60% (2100W), which is where it stayed for the remainder of the run. I'm running water thru the coil at about ~1000 ml/min for 100% reflux.
I ran it this way for about 45 minutes to balance the column

reduced water flow to ~700 ml/min -> slow drips at the output. Reflux rate estimated around 95%
15 min later reduced water flow to ~450 ml/min -> fast drips to broken stream.
I collected the first 3 jars in a bit over 1 hour, 94%ABV.
reduced water flow to ~250 ml/min for the next 3 jars - 90% ABV. Reflux rate estimated around 50%. collection speed about 4 LPH.
reduced water flow to ~100 ml/min for the next 4 jars - 88, 86, 85, 85% ABV. Reflux rate estimated around 10-20%. Plate levels are way down, but still active. collection speed now about 4.5 LPH.
reduced water flow to ~90 ml/min for next 18 jars, ranging from 85% to 62%. collection speed ranged from 4.5 LPH to 2.7 LPH at the end.
increased water flow to ~150 ml/min to try to hold back tails, collected 4 more jars (59% down to 36%), <2 LPH. None of these were cloudy or oily.

32 jars total, initial impression is that jars 5 thru 27 are keepers, but I saved the leftover stillage in case I need to run it again. HOWEVER, I have a cold right now so I won't attempt any cuts for a while.

Thoughts:
- Collection was faster than expected - about 3.7 liters per hour average, but there seemed to be pretty good separation of the fractions.
- ABV decreased thru the run like with a pot still run. My first run the ABV was a constant 90% until the last 3 jars - I suppose the difference is due to the reflux ratio.
- it produced more flavor than previous run, but not quite as much as a pot still run. The percent of keep is at least 50% higher than my pot still runs.
- during the part of the run using 90-100 ml/min there was very little activity on the plates (which makes sense because there is a much lower volume of reflux).
- This acted much like a pot still run during the main (hearts) portion of the run, but with ABVs considerably higher.
- I'm inclined to drop to 2 plates for the next run to drop ABV/increase flavor a bit.

Questions:
- does this sound anything like a normal flute run?
- Collection rate averaged about 3.7 Liters per hour - is that too fast?
- is my reflux rate too low during the hearts run?
- should the plates stay loaded during the hearts run?
- what do you suggest changing?

I can re-run as many times as I need to learn how to operate this thing.

edited to correct collection rates

[Wildcats]

Nice job on the coil. As for the run... Someone with more experience will be able to give you better feedback than I can. Looking good man.

[Sporacle]

Questions:
- does this sound anything like a normal flute run?
- Collection rate averaged about 3.7 Liters per hour - is that too fast?
- is my reflux rate too low during the hearts run?
- should the plates stay loaded during the hearts run?
- what do you suggest changing?

I think your abv should be a bit more consistent through the run

It would be fast for me, I'm at about 2.5 on 4 inch 4 plate

I would think that maybe you don't have enough reflux, hence the abv drop and you mentioned a drop in activity on your plates.

Plates should be loaded right throughout the run

I change both power and flow, but separately with a break when finding my initial settings.

I would load your plates with a medium power then back off the flow, and measure abv and output.
Try for 2.5 ph with a between 87 and 90 or thereabouts.

That's just my two cents, if it tastes good your doing good

[higgins]

Thanks for the feedback, Sporacle.

I was hoping to get more comments by experienced flute operators.

So I need to reduce collection rate and use a higher reflux ratio to produce a consistent ABV throughout the run.

I am going to re-run it again with these changes (subject to change based on additional feedback)

Bourbon low wines, 9 gallons @ 30.7% ABV: , 2.75 proof-gallons.

• after heatup, start balancing with power at 50% (1750W), dephleg rate set to minimum needed for 100% reflux, around 1000 ml/min.
• during balancing adjust power to minimum that keeps plates loaded, plus a bit more. Plan to keep same power level throughout run
• after balancing, adjust dephleg flow rate to achieve a couple of drops / sec until 250 ml collected. Dephleg should be around 500 ml/min.
• Then adjust dephleg flow rate to achieve fast drips/broken stream. Dephleg should be around 400 ml/min
• Once fores and heads are collected adjust dephleg to get a steady stream. Dephleg should be around 250 ml/min.
• Takeoff rate should be around 2.5 LPH. If too fast either reduce power or increase dephleg flow rate..
• when 80% collected (2.2 proof gallons) adjust dephleg to around 500 ml/min to hold back tails.

I'd like to try to get about 80-85% ABV. If this new procedure yields higher ABV I may drop one plate for next run.

Any more comments?

[Yummyrum]

Hi Higgins , glad to hear you have got your still up and running .

I agree with what sporicle was saying about your take off rate . Typically a 4” will be happy running with 2.5-3 kw and take off around 2-3 litres /hour .
If you run more power it will pull tails through most of the run . If you take off faster than 3l/h , it tastes too dirty IMO .
I think running at 2kw or below is too low for a seive plate .On mine at least , I’d have trouble keeping the plates loaded .

On a CM you can easily determine reflux ratio . Simply cut the water flow to the deflag and it will start running in pot mode .When the output has increases to maximum , measure l/h .
You can then calculate the reflux ratio from the Maximum verses what it was when you were taking product off .

It’s really only something you might do a couple of times out of curiosity . I generally get a good idea from comparing the falling reflux to the output stream .

To be honest , I have only ever once run my plated still while monitoring ABV ….. that was the first time and I was curious .
Now , I make all decisions by dipping a teaspoon in water and then letting a splash from the output and tasting . I find I can then get a true account of the effect of changing power or take off rates .

[Saltbush Bill]

My two bobs worth.
Answers as I see them on page , not necessarily in sequence.

Bourbon low wines, 9 gallons @ 30.7% ABV: , 2.75 proof-gallons.

If you want more flavour run wash , not low wines, plated columns were originally used for making one and done runs.
Personally I like to run mine with a mix, wash with some low wines, ultimately straight wash will give you better/ more flavour.
As others have commented , your running waaaaaay to fast imo. I run my 4 inch at a max of 2.5LPH.....there are some who claim faster speeds, but Ive never made anything good by being to fast.
Gut feeling is that the take off for a 3 incher is going to be max of 2Lph......start out at that or less for a few runs till you get the rest of your game together, plenty of time in the future to experiment with higher take off rates.

just power to minimum that keeps plates loaded, plus a bit more.

Thats a good place to start. its a bit of a balancing act. I prefer to try n leave heat be , and adjust take off speed with defleglamtor.
Having said that sometimes you need more heat as the run goes on......more heat and reflux can be helpful toward the end of the run when the bottom glass starts to fog, with a bit of juggling you can milk the last of the hearts out.

If too fast either reduce power or increase dephleg flow rate..

Dephleg control is my preferance.

I'd like to try to get about 80-85% ABV. If this new procedure yields higher ABV I may drop one plate for next run.

Your on the right path there , dont try to make the still do what it doesnt want to do by adjusting dephleg or heat, instead use more or less plates to achieve desired ABV.
As with all still types, plates have a happy place , that they run best......they dont respond well to being forced into doing what they dont want or like.

[Swedish Pride]

Dropping from 3to 2 sieve plates adds its own set of challenges.
I used to run 2 plates, was a bastard to keep the plates loaded throughout the run, it runs happily on 3 plates.

You may have to consider cap plates if you want to run two plates.

Just my 2ç

[higgins]

Hi Higgins , glad to hear you have got your still up and running .
Thanks, Yummy
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I think running at 2kw or below is too low for a seive plate .On mine at least , I’d have trouble keeping the plates loaded .
...
Good to know that.

My two bobs worth.
I'm sure it's worth more than that
...
Gut feeling is that the take off for a 3 incher is going to be max of 2Lph......start out at that or less for a few runs till you get the rest of your game together, plenty of time in the future to experiment with higher take off rates.
...
This is a 4 incher

Dropping from 3to 2 sieve plates adds its own set of challenges.
I used to run 2 plates, was a bastard to keep the plates loaded throughout the run, it runs happily on 3 plates.
...

I appreciate the good feedback you guys are giving me.
My takeaway is I need enough power to keep the plates loaded regardless of takeoff rate.
And I need to keep takeoff rate at 2.5 LPH or less, and just use whatever water flow /reflux rate is needed to keep it there.

I've already run the same low wines twice ... I'll just run it over and over until I find it's happy place.

Thanks again - I'll get it eventually.

[Yummyrum]

Have you tried running your low wines dilluted to ~8-10% abv ?
This will give you an idea what to expect when running just wash in it .
Running 30% low wines will be a different animal .
Personally , I do run low wines although sometimes I do a mix like Salty does too .

I found low ABV washes don't run to well in my plated still .

[googe]

Nice job mate, looks good. I've always been a 3 plate man lol. I ran bubble plates though. Always liked rum from three plates.

[shadylane]

I was hoping to get more comments by experienced flute operators.

I ain't experienced, but as normal have an opinion.

Everybody's homemade plates run different, so I can't help you much.
My only advice would be to make fewer adjustments during the run.
Every adjustment you make adds more variables and decreases repeatability.

[haggy]

Higgins,

Sorry I am late on this. But here is my 2 cents worth on your May 18 run.
Nice run information, especially measuring the cooling water flow rate.

I have used my Plate Reflux Column calculator to study your run. Thanks for all the data. See the thread " Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics" for details of this calculator.

You ran several takeoff rates from 1 to 4.5 L/hr all at 2100 watts. I looked at each run, here are the calculations for the 1 L/hr take-off rate.

First is the input data. You should confirm these are the correct numbers.

Then results for this run:

The results say that the Reflux Ratio was about 5/1 and there are no issues with flooding or weeping. Other characteristics for 1 L/hr the entire run time are also given. Start of tails is estimated at the time when about 15% alcohol remains.

_____

I did the same calculation for the 4 L/hr run. That ran at a Reflux Ratio of about 0.5/1. So you went too far and 2.5-3 L/hr ( as others have suggested ) would have been better.

_____

So, next you mght run at about 2700 watts and a 2.5 L/hr take-off rate.
Here are the calculations for that run.

And the Results show a Reflux Ratio of about 2/1 and a little higher vapor velocity, but no problem. I estimate the run would take about 6 hours to tails.

This Plate Reflux Column calculator can be useful in the planning of future run operating conditions and looking at "what if I do this" ideas. Maybe I should have posted this to you earlier. You have a good looking and good working system now.

I also have used your cooling water flow rate data to check my calculation for heat transfer of your coil reflux condenser. I can report on that later. Please include that data again in your future post discussing your next run.

Good luck in your next run, maybe you have already done it.

haggy

[higgins]

I ran my bourbon low wines once again, 8.5 gal @ 31%, collecting 24 15 oz (440 ml) jars.

I heated at 100% power (3500W) till column began to fog, then cut to 60%.
All my adjustments were to dephleg water flow rate except the one change in power when moving to hearts.

I started balancing at 60% power (2100W), 100% reflux (~700 ml/min flow rate[mlm]). The plates were bubbling up to a max of about 2". After 20 minutes its still running almost exactly the same. I waited another 15 minutes, then adjusted water flow (~440 mlm) to start collecting at a few drops per second.

The first jar took 50 minutes and was 94%. Collection rate was < 0.5 LPH. Nose was very much of Acetone
I adjusted (~360 mlm) to a broken stream for the next 3 jars. These all had a prominent sweet bite in the nose, decreasing with each.
They took another 50 min (17 min ea) and were at 90%. Collection rate was about 1.5 LPH.

Now I needed to change the reflux ratio to increase collection rate for the middle portion of the run. Adjusting the water only would have made for a pretty fast takeoff rate (or a still too high reflux rate), so I adjusted water (~150 mlm) AND dropped to 50% pwr for the next 14 jars: all were run at 10 min ea and were 86-87%. Collection rate was about 2.5 LPH. The plate levels got very low, but there was still some 'reflux action' going on.

Jar 19 ABV suddenly dropped to 82%, Jar 20 to 77% and getting funky. I still collected 5 more jars down to 50%.

I'll need to make a good attempt at cuts to see what I end up with - there were some pretty good flavors in both early and late hearts. I'm fairly satisfied with this run and if the cuts work out I'll put it in a Badmo clone.

[Sporacle]

Sounds pretty good, I haven't looked at the numbers to hard but it seems like a typical run for me.
I'm a bit quicker at the start.
When you get that end abv drop take note of what's happening with your sight glasses, sometimes there is a tell-tale.
There is with mine.
Cheers

[higgins]

Just finished working on cuts and I'm rather disappointed. Out of 24 jars, 6-15 was the blend I chose. Tails came pretty early - jars 16-18 were the same ABV (86%) but the flavor was tainted with tails.

When I cut the reflux ratio to increase takeoff to 2.5 LPH for hearts, I cut from 2100W to 1750W, and the plate levels got real low - < 1/8". So maybe I should have maintained the power and just accepted a higher reflux ratio, and maybe backed off to 2 LPH.

I don't really like the blend I chose, so will probably recombine with the stillage and run it one more time.

[Saltbush Bill]

When I cut the reflux ratio to increase takeoff to 2.5 LPH for hearts, I cut from 2100W to 1750W, and the plate levels got real low

No where near enough power , your going to need 2400 minimum through to as much as 3400.
Using heat to adjust reflux with a plated still is not the answer.......use the deflegmator for that job, thats why everybody suggests using a needle valve for fine adjustment.

[Yummyrum]

When I cut the reflux ratio to increase takeoff to 2.5 LPH for hearts, I cut from 2100W to 1750W, and the plate levels got real low

No where near enough power , your going to need 2400 minimum through to as much as 3400.
Using heat to adjust reflux with a plated still is not the answer.......use the deflegmator for that job, thats why everybody suggests using a needle valve for fine adjustment.

100% Salty .

Higgins , I think you are now on the right track . Back off takeoff rate ( by adjusting deflag ) …..but not by reducing power .This will increase the reflux ratio and help hold back the tails .

It’s all a learning curve . You’ll crack it .

[tjsc5f]

Tails came pretty early - jars 16-18 were the same ABV (86%) but the flavor was tainted with tails.

This was a bourbon you plan on aging? I've experimented with heavy tail tainted product and noticed that it ages out pretty quick.
For my pallette, after about 3 months on oak tails are still barely noticable and completely gone after 6 months to a year.

[higgins]

I've been busy with farm work and a family beach vacation, but I finally re-ran the bourbon low wines yesterday. 10 gal (37.8 L) @ 25%.

I ran at 100% power (3500W) till the glass began to fog, then dropped to 70% power (2450W) for the remainder of the run. It ran pretty smoothly the whole time, putting out a fairly consistent 89-91% ABV running right at 2 LPH. I collected 20 14 oz (415 ml) jars, cutting off when the distillate became oily.

Thanks to haggy's calculations on water flow, at 2500W I should need about 380-400 ml/min thru the dephleg for 2 LPH. Once I was well into heads I adjusted flow rate down to 400 ml/min and it ran right at 2 LPH. But then the flow rate dropped from 400 at jar 7 (2.1 LPH) to 300 at jar 13 (3.1 LPH) before coming back up. I'm sure this was due to the fact that I'm on a well and my water pressure gradually drops to 30psi before the pump comes on and brings it back to 40. This shows how important it is to keep water pressure constant for a CM still. I'll probably do as many here do and pick up a submersible pump and use a tank for the dephleg water.

Edited to add: BTW, I have 2 needle valves in series and still have a hard time closely regulating dephleg water flow.

I'm pretty happy with the flavors I was getting, so I'll be working on cuts today. After running this batch 4 times I am ready to get this one in a BadMo and move on to the next batch.

Thanks to all for the excellent feedback you've given me.

[Yummyrum]

Welcome to the hassle of deflags and unstable pressure .
I also switched to the submersible in a tank , but be aware that unless you have a reasonably large tank, it will heat up and you’ll be needing to tweak water flow throughout the run .
400mls /min is 144 Litres on a 6 hour run …… and that's cool water .As you can imagine , a 200 litre tank is going to be too hot by the end of the run without some auxiliary cooling .Aim for at least 1000litres

Another option is to have a header tank ,feed it via a float valve .Use that to gravity feeds the deflag …..if you have a high enough point to mount one .

[higgins]

I'll probably try this first:

RV Regulator.png (36.87 KiB) Viewed 3941 times

Amazon

Add this on my faucet supplying the dephleg. I'll adjust the pressure to about 25 psi (lower than 30) and it should stay constant.

[Wildcats]

Let us know how that regulator works if you get it. Be a quick fix for a lot of people if it does the job.

[zach]

It's funny I had the same thought about the regulator earlier today but didn't have time to respond.

You might add a flow meter for feedback on your needle valve adjustment.