4" column

[stillman]

Just completed a new stainless 4" column for my pot still and will be starting the reflux column tomorrow. Am hoping to decrease the time it takes to run a batch. By the way, I used 4" Triclamp connections to make it as knock down as possible. Are the silicone gaskets OK? The guy at the store said they should be OK. He didn't have the teflon gaskets in stock.

Is there an optimal size for the condesor tubing. I made a monster 3" diameter by 27"long Liebig type with a coil of 3/8"OD tube inside. Used the full 25ft. Is that enough?

Will try to get a digi camera and post a pic when the new boiler is complete.

[Don Ventura]

/me claps wildly!!! PICS PICS!!!

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DAMN DIGI CAMS!!!

[rkr]

Wow, another 4" column. We built one 4" test rig with external ARC and have two more much improved versions at works. What power are you planning to use? 4" column is good up to ~4kW + heat losses. What's your plan for packing and reflux spreading?

- Riku

[stillman]

When I get the boiler working, it will be two 1500w heat elements. I'm just figuring it out and have a lot of work to do yet. Started out wanting to go with all copper, but to get the pipe it was too much of a hassle so I went the stainless route.

I'm starting too realize that the condesor tubing will have to be much larger. Maybe 3/4" to get the vapor out of the column faster. If this is a wrong idea please let me know.

Haven't had a reflux still yet, but was thinking either stainless or copper scrubbers for the packing.

If there are any ideas out there I'd love to hear them.

[stoker]

a 4" copper pipe if for me one of the most easiest pipes to get. they sell it as rain pipe (100 mm) I almost used it 'cause I could fine any other diameters (eventually I found a 42 mm)
you can maybe find it at your local 'drainage' store

[stillman]

The 4" copper isn't as easy to get here. 3" copper was easy enough to find but they are charging a fortune for it. The stuff at the scrap yard was so bad that I didn't want to make the effort to clean it.

Stainless is readily available up to 12" dia where I am and I found a place for the Triclamp parts 10 mins down the road
Plus stainless is easier to clean.

[rkr]

When I get the boiler working, it will be two 1500w heat elements. I'm just figuring it out and have a lot of work to do yet. Started out wanting to go with all copper, but to get the pipe it was too much of a hassle so I went the stainless route.

I'm starting too realize that the condesor tubing will have to be much larger. Maybe 3/4" to get the vapor out of the column faster. If this is a wrong idea please let me know.

Haven't had a reflux still yet, but was thinking either stainless or copper scrubbers for the packing.

If there are any ideas out there I'd love to hear them.

3 kW is a very good power, you can also insulate the boiler to keep the vaporspeed close to optimum.

Is your condenser gloved cold finger type? That's how I understood it from your description. Also, what type of still are you building (LM, CM, VM, other)?

Biggest problem with these large columns is to prevent channeling of reflux inside the column. To prevent that you need to spread the reflux evenly and have uniform packing density. I would recommend rolled mesh type packing instead of scrubbers as getting scrubbers evenly inside a large column is quite problematic.

- Riku

[stillman]

Hi rkr,

Please forgive me if I'm not using the correct terms.

The condensor is a coil of 3/8dia copper inside a 27"l x 3"stainless jacket welded with an inlet and outlet for cooling water. Should the 3/8" tubing be bigger?

I made the potstill column 12" long. for rum.

With the triclamps it can be taken off and switched for the reflux column. Also as a option the reflux can be put on top for more length.

The reflux column is just a 36" piece of pipe so far. This is why I made the posting. Before I put the thing together I was hoping to get as much info as possible. With the reflux calculators It seemed that when you get into the bigger sizes there was not much difference between a 36" or 48"column.

What type of reflux would be best for a 4" column?

I'll order the roll of mesh.

[Bujapat]

What you're doin' seems pretty good...
BUT don't use silicone or any other plastic

Read this : http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2156

[level Joe]

The guy at the store said they should be OK. He didn't have the teflon gaskets in stock.

He should be able to order the teflon for you. You can get the 4" gaskets online for $2 a pc. but the minimum order is the killer.

[rkr]

What you're doin' seems pretty good...
BUT don't use silicone or any other plastic

Read this : http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2156

I don't quite agree with your opinion about silicone. Mike Nixon recommends aquarium grade RTV silicone for gaskets and hundreds of people (i know 20 or 30) have used it for years without any ill effects.

- Riku

[rkr]

Hi rkr,

Please forgive me if I'm not using the correct terms.

The condensor is a coil of 3/8dia copper inside a 27"l x 3"stainless jacket welded with an inlet and outlet for cooling water. Should the 3/8" tubing be bigger?

I made the potstill column 12" long. for rum.

With the triclamps it can be taken off and switched for the reflux column. Also as a option the reflux can be put on top for more length.

The reflux column is just a 36" piece of pipe so far. This is why I made the posting. Before I put the thing together I was hoping to get as much info as possible. With the reflux calculators It seemed that when you get into the bigger sizes there was not much difference between a 36" or 48"column.

What type of reflux would be best for a 4" column?

I'll order the roll of mesh.

No worries mate, those terms are there just to avoid lengthy explanations

So, let's see if I got this right. You got 3 feet piece of 4" pipe as a column. On top of that you'll have to figure out some kind of a still head. The type of the still head depends on your intended use (flavored vs. neutral spirits or both) and your personal preferences (do you like to adjust your still and watch it all the time). Most designs have indeed reflux condenser on top of the column, then some way to separate some of the vapors or reflux as the product and a separate product condenser (recommended even for LM with 3kW).

In order to recommend you a design you really should give us some idea of what spirits you are going to make and how much do you want to adjust it during the run.

Your condenser (if it's reflux spiral?) will easily cool off 3kW.

Some pics / photos would really be helpful in sorting out that condenser.

- Riku

[stillman]

Finally got some sketches done,

I am looking to have a still that can be used as a reflux OR potstill. Hopefully the pics are attached.

Reflux for neutral and pot for all kinds of different stuff.

By using the same top portion and adding the length and packing.

Is the 48" too high for this column?

I don't want to have to stand over the thing while it's working. Would like to be able to set it up and let it run as much as possible.

Finally got the teflon gaskets but agree that the silicone ones are probably OK. Have enough loot wrapped up into this one so a little more is not a big problem.

Ended up redoing the condensor. All stainless.





Any thoughts would be helpful. I have it jerryrigged to the old pot and will be starting the new pot soon. Once all the rest is sorted out.

The output is about 1litre every hour or so. I'm hoping that with a larger surface area for the pot, this will be made quicker.

Cheers

[stillman]

Sorry about the size of the pics.

[TEC]

As a Pot still, it looks fine, but do you need 3" on the condenser? seems like 2" would be overkill around a 1" pipe.

As a Reflux still, how would you control reflux? or even cause a controlled reflux action?

[stillman]

The 3" on the condensor was originally for a 3/8" copper coil. This was a really slow output. The stainless was there in the shop so I used that. No great method to the madness. The condensor works really well with minimal running water.

As for the reflux. I've seen pics where a cooling jacket is welded on the top of the column under the vapour outflow and above the packing. That is still an option but I was hoping for some pointers.

[rkr]

Well, your current construction will work quite similar manner as those short column you see artisan distillers using. It will give excellent brandy or other flavored spirit (proper packing and operating procedure provided) but it will most likely not give you neutral alcohol.

First of all, you are missing the reflux condenser on top of the column. This is quite essential to have unless you want to have really long column. Also, you need to spread the reflux from that condenser evenly on the packing. This reflux condenser can be bypassed when you run in potstill mode.

Second point, your product condenser. 3" mantel around 1" pipe is unnecessarily large, although it works if you allready built it. The mantel should have innerdiameter of 25.4(1") + 2*3mm= ~30mm In practise you could use 1.5" pipe or a tad bit smaller one. If you make the product condenser from copper it can cool off ~2000-2500W which will limit the power you can use in potstill mode. The column itself can take 5kW.

- Riku

[rkr]

As for the reflux condenser, a reflux coil made of 5-6 meters of 8mm copper pipe is the one I would use in your application.

- Riku

[stillman]

Thanks for the replies.

I think it's sorted out now. Took a while. This isn't exactly my day job. The whole idea was to have an interchangable system that can be taken apart and cleaned easily.

For the reflux coil, I'll go get another 4" solid end cap and drill 2 holes for the coil to hang/run through.

Now to finish the boiler.

On that 3" condensor. Once it's full, there barely needs to have a trickle running. It wasn't the original plan but it works great and was free.

Thanks again and cheers.

[rkr]

You can use the same endcap. Just switch off the water from the coil when you run as a potstill (bypass it if in the same line). Then you need proper operating procedure, equilibrate for 30 minutes or so, bleed off the heads 2-3 drops / sec and for the main run keep the strength at 95% adjusting speed accordingly. The speed of operation is adjusted by regulating the water flow through the reflux condenser. You can have the reflux coil at the same water line as the product condenser, just after it. Then you regulate the flow to get the result you want.

- Riku

[copperhead]

i don't see the reflux tube or valves looks like two pots you need a return back to your colum and valves to control the out put and reflux going back to your colum.

[stillman]

I got the copper packing in last week and made the reflux coil yesterday. It'll just hang through 2 holes in the cap at the top of the column. I ended up just using a 13.5 gal keg. All the fabricating was getting real expensive and time consuming. While I was building the big double boiler I saw Level Joe's Keg with the 4" ferrule and thought, "what the heck, That's easier than what I was thinkin" The big boiler can be finished later. I'm itchin' to see this column go in reflux mode.

It is an interesting note that the cone with the 4" Tri clamp fitting( In the previous sketch) can be used to fill up the keg when inverted. A nice little surprise. I have a 1 1/4 valve to empty the thing when the wash is spent. This will make it easier to clean up. I will look into the fittings to make a vapor tight seal where the reflux coil goes through the endcap.

Should be done soon. I guess I have to run all the rum that's in my fermenters so some sugar washes can get started.

[stillman]

Hi folks,

It's been awhile since posting. Been busy.

Here's a pic of my still in potstill mode.

To use for reflux I put an additional section on the column

Any comments are appreciated.

[SuperDavid]

wow! that is a massive water jacket!
what kind of times are you running with stripping runs?

[stillman]

Usually about 4 or 5 hours.

I think I need a better heat source.

The stovetop is convenient in the current situation

It seams as if it should be a lot faster with the column and condenser the size that they are.

It is strange to me that while stripping there is vapor coming out of the condensor along with the liquid alcohol.

Not sure what to make of it.

Sometimes it is puffing.

[Ugly]

Vapour? Pretty much says your condenser isn't doing the job. Try upping the water flow or putting a turbulator inside with Liebig arm right in the vapour path.

Edit; Or reduce the heat.

[rad14701]

Have you tried running the still without coolant flowing through those rflux tubes at the top of the column...??? Having them that close to the take off port might be an issue, especially if they produce more cooling than the top of your liebig condenser...

I'd also consider reconfigure the coolant lines so the water comes in the bottom of the liebig, out the top, in one reflux tube, out the other, and then back into the holding tank or down the drain...

[stillman]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Tube running through the condensor is 7/8" Inside Dia.

I'm going to try putting a 3/8"Dia spacer down the center to try and get the vapors up against the walls.

For me the heat should be OK with all that cooling happening.

The initial idea of the still was to do the runs quicker. Bigger column, more vapor to the condensor.

That was the idea in it's most basic form.

The cooling does go in the bottom of the Liebig and through the reflux.

Cheers

[Hawke]

I think part of the problems you are having is that stainless is pretty poor at transfering heat. You may want to consider making a copper liebig. In pot mode you should be able to collect at gallon(s) per hour.

[stillman]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I cut the heat back.

Put a 3/8" spacer down the center of the liebig and increased the water flow.

I'm getting almost a gallon jar per hour.

I kinda did this run to work out what the heck I have been doing wrong.

The still is a work in progress.

The next project will be to put a cooling line up the center of the liebig.

I have some more 3/8 stainless that will work nicely.

I'll ferment a batch of rum while fixing the condensor.

Thanks again