Vapor Management column build pictures

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:07 pm

Here is my latest project:

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:16 pm

Looks nice! Is that a beerbrewing rig I see in the background of the first pic?

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:18 pm

wineo wrote:Looks nice! Is that a beerbrewing rig I see in the background of the first pic?

It is. That is my #1 toy there.

Post by **HookLine** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:17 pm

Very nice. How long is the cold finger reflux condenser?

PUGIDOGS · Post by **PUGIDOGS** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:26 pm

Brewpastor,

Glad you found your way over here to this site. I did not want to say to much on HBT. Looks like you are an your way to making some good neutral. Very nice wokmanship....Pugi

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:12 pm

HookLine wrote:Very nice. How long is the cold finger reflux condenser?

18" of 1 1/4" tubing. I used it in another still and from the decoloration it looks like the vapor didn't get much beyond 6".

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:15 pm

PUGIDOGS wrote:Brewpastor,

Glad you found your way over here to this site. I did not want to say to much on HBT. Looks like you are an your way to making some good neutral. Very nice wokmanship....Pugi

Thanks, it is good to be here. I am hoping it will do more then just make nuetral. I anticipate being able to play with the reflux ratio and the heads and tails and make some flavored spirits as well. I do love these hobbies!

Post by **manu de hanoi** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:55 pm

do you have any design drawing to help understand how this works ?

As-Ol-Joe · Post by **As-Ol-Joe** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:33 am

NICE. Do you need a step ladder to adjust the cooling water? What is the heat source going to be?

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:42 am

As-Ol-Joe wrote:NICE. Do you need a step ladder to adjust the cooling water? What is the heat source going to be?

Np, I am half ape!

The boiler is electric with a 750 W element and a 1500 w element as well.

I also have a 10 gallon steam jacketed kettle this column will fit on.

As for drawings, I will see what I can do.

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:54 am

Well, here is an attempt at a diagram. It is a reflux, fractioning column as represented in the yellow. The dotted orange is the vapor, the solid orange is the condensed liquid. The blue is the cooling water in both the outlet, vapor condenser and cold finger heat exchanger.

Post by **manu de hanoi** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:03 am

i am studying Vapour management from the "compleat distiller" and it advises the valve to be before the condenser in order to regulate the vapour flow. But you built misterious valve after the condenser, why ?

I'd love to built a vapour management still but I fear that the reflux condenser would suck in most of the vapors ...

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:44 am

Because the needle valve is never open to full during a run and is running at a 10/1 ratio there is a back-up of vapor and liquid in the product condenser which prevents anymore of the vapor from being drawn into the condenser then flows out as condensate. I believe (I am only guessing and drawing from observations) that this makes the gate valve not needed. I could be completely wrong on this, but it appears to me that the Amphora PDA-1 utilizes this design and was my inspiration.

The reflux condenser/heat exchanger at the top does not suck all the vapor and when the needle valve at the end of the product condenser is wide open I get over 60 ml a minute out of the product condenser.

Post by **HookLine** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:58 am

Pretty sure the Amphora PDA-1 is liquid management, not vapour management.

Manu, VM works very well, there is no problem with vapour being 'sucked' up by the reflux coil. It doesn't work that way.

Ethanol vapour above about 50% strength is denser (heavier) than air, and so wants to fall. It will prefer to go into the product arm and fall down into the product condenser, rather than rise to the reflux coil.

The reflux coil condenses whatever doesn't go into the product arm. You decide how much that is by how wide the gate valve is open.

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:39 am

I am running at 96% right now, so I believe it is working. Nice neutral drippings coming off it.

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:41 pm

I had the same question about the needle valve, considering how there is no reflux return back to the column... Essentially, all the valve is doing is aiding in additional cooling of condensate prior to collection... Reflux would only happen if the condenser filled completely, and that could possibly jeopardize the equilibrium of the entire column...

Nice looking column...

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:14 pm

I don't think that is what is happening. By keeping the valve closed while equilibrium is being established the condenser fills with condensate and the liquid begins to over-flow back into the column, adding to the reflux. When equilibrium is reached and product is drawn off, whatever few ml. are in the condenser are pulled off and tossed out and the run continues. The partially opened needle valve causes the condensate to back up and the backed up condensate regulates the vapor flow. Eventually the liquid is backed up to the point that it flows back into the column and rejoins the reflux cycle.

Anyway I am excited to be getting the results I am getting and will be interested to see what others have to say about this.

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:22 pm

You may be right, Brewpastor, but that sure is a large reservoir to fill in order to attain the added reflux...

Were you suggesting that you could use the condenser as a heads collector when the needle valve is closed at the beginning of a run...??? Maybe I read more into your comments than you intended...

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:04 pm

No, I wouldn't use it as a heads collector (or I hadn't thought about it anyway) and maybe I do need a gate valve. The limit of my set-up will be running something along the lines of a flavor run. The gate lets the vapor flow be controlled, but I am not sure about my "traffic jam" control and how much reflux ratio I can get with it. I will have to play with it. But that is half the fun!

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:18 pm

I guess I would be looking to use the cold finger condenser for all of my reflux and the output condenser solely for full condensation of the output from vapor to liquid... A coolant flow control valve after the cold finger would handle reflux and I would probably skip the needle valve at the outlet, but having one there definitely wouldn't hinder performance... I can see how using a gate valve before the off-take condenser would help with equilibrium, and having a needle valve on the opposite end in its place might simplify construction...

Post by **manu de hanoi** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:20 pm

HookLine wrote: Manu, VM works very well, there is no problem with vapour being 'sucked' up by the reflux coil. It doesn't work that way.

Ethanol vapour above about 50% strength is denser (heavier) than air, and so wants to fall. It will prefer to go into the product arm and fall down into the product condenser, rather than rise to the reflux coil.

ok thanks.But why would the vapors prefer a bit of gravity to the sexiness of the void created by the reflux condenser ?

cannon.co.tn · Post by **cannon.co.tn** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:43 pm

I think that you do, in fact, want a valve before the condenser. This way you won't be wasting your cooling water condensing vapors that should be refluxing as vapor. If you're getting overflow from the condenser you'll actually be a LM column, which isn't bad particularly but be sure to put a beak on the tube to make sure your liquid reflux doesn't just run down the side and gets into the center of the packing.

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:46 am

LM Column? Please explain. Thanks.

BW Redneck · Post by **BW Redneck** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:27 am

Little review of the Compleat distiller's reflux management techniques...

LM-Liquid management. Condenses all of the vapor and returns part of the condensate back to the column via a valve that can handle small quantities (needle valve). Small variations in temperature can make valve settings change, and small adjustments can have a big impact on the reflux ratio. A bok inline, a moonshine-still Valved reflux model, and the Nixon-stone offset designs are good examples.

CM-Cooling management. Places a condenser before the takeoff condenser to control how much distillate is returned to the column. Controlling the cooling supply is quite fiddly and 100% reflux is difficult to do for equilibration. An "internal reflux" design is an example, although the bottom cooling tube needs to be moved closer to the top.

VM-Vapor management. Uses a large capacity valve (i.e. gate valve) to direct the vapor itself between a reflux condenser and the product condenser. Coarse adjustments of the valve make finer adjustments to the reflux ratio due to the fact that the vapor takes up more volume per mole of ethanol than the liquid. Valve settings are pretty constant and reliable. Hookline's model is one of the best examples.

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:57 pm

BW Redneck wrote:Little review of the Compleat distiller's reflux management techniques...

LM-Liquid management. Condenses all of the vapor and returns part of the condensate back to the column via a valve that can handle small quantities (needle valve). Small variations in temperature can make valve settings change, and small adjustments can have a big impact on the reflux ratio. A bok inline, a moonshine-still Valved reflux model, and the Nixon-stone offset designs are good examples.

CM-Cooling management. Places a condenser before the takeoff condenser to control how much distillate is returned to the column. Controlling the cooling supply is quite fiddly and 100% reflux is difficult to do for equilibration. An "internal reflux" design is an example, although the bottom cooling tube needs to be moved closer to the top.

VM-Vapor management. Uses a large capacity valve (i.e. gate valve) to direct the vapor itself between a reflux condenser and the product condenser. Coarse adjustments of the valve make finer adjustments to the reflux ratio due to the fact that the vapor takes up more volume per mole of ethanol than the liquid. Valve settings are pretty constant and reliable. Hookline's model is one of the best examples.

Thank you. I appreciate your explanations. Abbreviations are not always obvious and so this is helpful in learning the local lingo. On my way home it clicked that LM must be Liquid Management. I have to say I felt a little dumb, but sometimes I miss the obvious!

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:19 pm

Those explanations were excellent. I get confused in the difference between CM and VM all the time. I've saved that post for quick reference in the future.

Brewpastor · Post by **Brewpastor** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:16 pm

Well, I installed a gate valve today. I can't wait to give it a run. I am now stuck with a new problem - where do I put the thermometer?!

tracker0945 · Post by **tracker0945** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:13 pm

Can't say where it should be but I think that where it was would not be giving you the correct vapour reading. There most likely would have been liquid dripping on it from the condenser which would be cooler than the vapour.
Cheers.

Post by **rad14701** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:31 pm

Perhaps between the column and the newly installed gate valve in the take-off tube... In that location it would give an accurate reading of the vapor at the point where it counts the most... You would still get a reading even if the gate valve is closed during equilibrium... You could then adjust the heat source, condenser flow rate, and gate valve in order to maintain the proper temperature, reflux, and take-off rate...

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:24 pm

That is where I put mine.

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