Olive Oil instead of Aeration?

[Chev]

I was reading a home brew site where there is buzz going on about using olive oil (a VERY SMALL AMOUNT) instead of aerating the wort. Searched and nothing has been mentioned here. The only downside i've read is maybe head retention in beer (which we don't have to worry about, right ). My last UJSM stuck, so I may start over after this run and try this.

Anyone have anything to say?

*A lot of forums are sticklers about linking to other forums, and while I don't see it in the rules about linking to other sites, I'm sure a google search will bring up what I am talking about.*

[19Kilo]

I was reading about that on the MW site... Had to try it out. Steps 1 and 2 of the starter maybe went as fast as a properly airated starter. after that, noticed no difference. I really need to do a side by side comparrison tho.

[Chev]

Since I don't have aeration equipment, and I ferment in a bucket (can't really shake it) this looks like a great alternative.

[wineo]

Just buy a cheap air pump for a fish tank.It works great!

[BW Redneck]

I can't imagine how olive oil could substitute for aeration. Yeast needs oxygen dissolved in the mash in order to propagate to a large colony before trying to breathe off of the sugar. Unless olive oil retains a bunch of oxygen (which I doubt), I can't see why it would help.

Like wineo said, a fish tank aerator works great. I just stir vigorously and take a length of hose and blow air into the bottom. Yeast takes off and is done in 3-4 days.

[pintoshine]

I use a paint stirrer and a drill whenever I can't pour from one container to another. Generally a vigorous pour from your mixing container to the fermenter is enough to aerate the wash.
Aeration is only needed in the beginning to get the yeast population for a good fermentation. If you aereate too much you are growing yeast and not making alcohol.
Yeast only make alcohol when the oxygen is exhausted.

[Dnderhead]

olive oil is a antioxidant i do not see it working

[Old_Blue]

I only do this for the most reserved occasions but I must do it now:

>I'm calling Bull Sh&t<

Romans and others in ancient times used a layer of olive oil on top of wine to prevent oxidation!

There have been many clay jugs of wine dug up in Italy, Greece, France, England and other countries that were part of the Roman wine market that are 1500 plus years old that still have wine in them. They all have a layer of olive oil on top. They didn't have a sophisticated way of sealing the jugs so olive oil served that purpose. Samples have been taken from some and the wine is still "drinkable". If you have ever got a hold of oxidized wine you know that is is not.

I also read the post from the brew site that started this.
The recommended dosage was dipping a tooth pick in the olive oil and that is the right amount. The yeast would get an O2 molecule from the oil. If that is all you supposed to put in it stands to reason - assuming it works - that only the amount of yeast that could fit on the tip of a tooth pick is all that would benefit. I doubt that would make any difference.

I'll save my olive oil for sauteing onions and garlic.

If some one posted that a day old dog turd would cut fermentation time by a day some poor bastard would try it.

[junkyard dawg]

Not so fast....

something about making available extra lipids for budding stage and providing O2.

Google will provide some interesting reading....

[blanikdog]

[quote="Old_Blue"]If some one posted that a day old dog turd would cut fermentation time by a day some poor bastard would try it. [/quote

I've tried that blue. Didn't help at all.




blanik

[RadicalEd1]

old blue, the reason the dosage levels are so small is because of the ridiculously high concentration of atoms in the smallest drop of simple matter. You know Avogadro's number? It's 6.02*10^23 atoms per mol, where a mol of oxygen, for instance is 32 grams. Yeast don't need much oxygen to reproduce, so even if there's only 1/10,000th of a mol of oil, that's still 6.02*10^19 molecules of oil. A dab'll do it.

IIRC it was a matter of being able to skip the oxygen intake process entirely; providing the oil supplies the product of the aerobic cycle. So yes, it can block oxygen while simultaneously simulating oxygenation.

They still use oil as a preservative today, too. My family's part Italian, and we make our own pasta sauce each year, cook it down into conserva, and keep it under an oil layer. Just dip some out, add water and heat, and you have the world's best pasta sauce :p.

[Uncle Jesse]

I pour the wort from bucket to bucket 3-4 times. Aerates it nicely.

[goose eye]

these boys use bung barels with cider - easyer to roll without spillin - an aint never stired except to add suger. with other fruit they will pry sack off botom to feel how heavy. with corn they make cap an dont mess with it till cap falls. they aint never had much problem with stuff workin.

they have used oil for pukein but aint been olive

so im tole

[Old_Blue]

I read up on this before posting but after reading some more and actually thinking about it some I'm officially

Recalling Bull Sh&t

I don't mind admitting I might be wrong...I've had plenty of practice.

The problem I initially had was not the contribution of olive oil (OO) but the dosage. But, considering the math it now makes sense there is an adequate amount vs. the initial yeast population. There is a question that still remains in my tiny mind of the lack of distribution of the OO that would prevent a serious lag time which can become critical in beer.

Of course you could just stir it in but stir just a little longer and you're oxygenating anyway, which defeats the intended application of this technique.

In any case, that's what makes this forum great...giving me a chance to learn from the great minds of others

I just drain wort from the boiler into the fermenter from a 2 foot height letting it run through a mesh screen. After many, many batches I've never had a problem with aeration.

[RadicalEd1]

Way to man up, Old Blue. I respect that.

But yeah, a lot of the concerns you listed are very valid, and a large part of the reason that it isn't in standard practice in the industry right now...Why fix it if it ain't broke? At least it is an interesting bit of science.

[Old_Blue]

RadicalEd1,

If nothing else, it made me tear the house apart looking for the ol TI-83 Plus.
Haven't used that thing in years..had to replace the battery

[RadicalEd1]

Hahaha the good old TI-83+. Kept me company through high school and one year of college...Until I learned of the glories of the TI-89. The advantages of multi-variable integration and derivation ware just too great to pass up .

[Old_Blue]

Well Dammit....

I tried this.

Brewed an ale and was very careful draining from the brew pot not to introduce any extra air into the fermenter.No aeration, stirring etc... and put 3 drops olive oil in w/yeast. Damn thing started in 6 hours and after bottling/conditioning, I can't tell a difference in taste.

I guess it really works.

[The Chemist]

Hmmm...interesting. Was the fermentation quicker? Did you get a bit more yield?

[Old_Blue]

My usual is the 1-2-3.

1 week in primary, 2 week secondary, 3 week bottle condition.

So really I have 3 weeks of potential fermentation. I didn't pay much attention to how it was acting but to start bubbling in 6 to 8 hours is about normal for my methods.

I didn't notice any difference in the finished product.

I was making an all grain "Irish Red" ale with 2 row and homemade toasted malts. SG 1.040 - FG 1.006. @ ~ 68f. I use a converted fridge to hold temps within 3 degrees.

Mashed ~ 152f/1.5 hrs. Iodine showed complete conversion.

9 lb two row
1.5 homemade toasted of various levels of toast.
1.5 oz hops at various intervals
1 tbs Irish moss

Boiled down to 5.25 gallon ~ 1.25 hrs.

3 drops evoo off the end of a toothpick.

Pitched 500ml starter that is at least 10 generations old, maybe more (She's a good one ).

12 hours on a stir plate, 36 hours sitting covered.

Probably more info than most want to know.

I may have to do two at the same time , side-by-side and make close observation and notes.

Goes against everything I thought I knew about yeast.

Could hops/grain be contributing O2?
How much O2 absorbed through non-agitated surface?
Is O2 even necessary with a 500ml starter?

Well, damn.

[wineo]

There was an article about this in brew magazine last issue.I will read it again,and post some details.It does work.

[wineo]

Everyone knows that yeast needs oxygen,but heres what it does with it.The yeast take up the oxygen,and use it to produce sterols,and unsaturated fatty acids {UFAs}that are required for healthy cell walls.One of the specific UFAs that yeast cells make is oleic acid.Olive oil contains up to 80% oleic acid.By using olive oil in place of airation,The yeast gets the oleic acid,without using oxygen.This will allow beer brewers to have healthy fermentations,without alot of the oxidation that you normaly get by airating the wart with oxygen.
As far as making mashes for distilling goes,Theres not a real advantage using this method because we dont have to worry much about oxidation changing the flavor of our mash since it gets distilled so quickly.
I have heard rumers of people using olive oil in winemaking that go back to roman times,but never knew what it did,or why they did it.

[Husker]

Wineo,

so what you are saying, is that with olive oil (how much???), you can get a yeast colony to reproduce to an adequate size without aeration? This sounds strange.

HOWEVER, if this is true, then there are still several issues, (possible pro's and cons).

yeast, once the O2 is used up, crack the sugar for O2 (and produce EtOH in the process). With this change from O2 to the fatty acid in olive oil, would this process start from the beginning? However, if there was too much oil, would this process be delayed, or harmed?

This whole thing seems strange to me, but yeast is such a strange non-animal non-plant beast to start with.

H.

[wineo]

I agree,its strange to me also.Since I had an article on the subject,I thought I would share the information.What they did is add a very small drop of the oil to a un-airated starter,2 days before they were going to pinch it.It seems that the yeast makes oleic acid when processing the oxygen anyway,so adding the oil to the starter supplys the oleic acid without the yeast going through the oxygen eating stage.These tests were done on ales,side by side with conventional airated warts.The head retention was a little better on the ones without the oil,and the one with the oil produced a little less esters.The fermentations were done at the same temp,and pinching rate,and both fermented in about the same amount of time.
I guess the world of yeasty-beastys is a strange place.Im not going to be adding olive oil to my ferments because of this test,but I did learn something new,so I thought I would share it.

[rad14701]

One thing that oil on top would do, perhaps, is to block additional oxygen from entering the mash... It would allow carbon dioxide out but no oxygen in... It might also help keep other nasties out as well... Just my chemistry-free two cents...

[Old_Blue]

That's what it was for Rad, they would pour a couple of inches on top of the wine. I guess it would keep it from evaporating too. But anyway, the Romans - and their "citizens" throughout their domain have documented this practice, just not the reason that I'm aware of.

Occasionally construction crews will dig up a coffin of a Roman soldier or dignitary in England or somewhere that contains a jug of wine with olive oil on top. Talk about aging!

Anyway, I tried it and it seemed to work. Thought I'd share the experience but I don't know if there is any real advantage, for me anyhow. Back to regular aeration for me.

EDIT: I forgot my manners - Thanks wineo for going to the trouble to look that up and sharing it with us.

[muckanic]

Could hops/grain be contributing O2?

No, but boiler trub can contribute lipids. Fermenting on the grain achieves something similar. This possibly impacts the amount of fusels ultimately produced, which is one reason why brewers don't do it.

As far as making mashes for distilling goes,Theres not a real advantage using this method because we dont have to worry much about oxidation changing the flavor of our mash since it gets distilled so quickly.

Even in brewing, oxidation is only a problem with either the hot wort, or post-ferment. Cold, pre-ferment oxidation is fine, because not much is reactive or available for staling at that stage, and the growing yeast effectively beat everything else to the O2.

One possible gotcha here: vegetable oils contain volatiles. Not of an especially unpleasant variety, mind you, but enough to alter the style of the product.

[sciezyna]

Probably not much help but all I've heard is that olive oil is used instead of airlock. If I remember it well this method is used to ferment plum mush for slivowitz in Southern Europe they ferment it in 5000l underground silos - how they control temp? - no idea. But it could be just an anegdote.

[Uncle Jesse]

I wonder if the olive oil would work as an anti-foaming agent during distillation?

[Husker]

It should work great for that UJ. Works like a champ when doing starchy pasta, so I believe it will help with many foam producing boiling sessions.

H.