What do you do with your cuts?

[ZAXBYC]

I must have my distilling hat on tonight because I cant stop brainstorming, and Its 1am and I have just finished have some fun with my still and some apple and banana wine I have just started... Might distill that when its done, or just drink it!
anyway I digress...

I'm thinking about pot stilling here rather than using a column because I'm thinking "flavour"

When collecting the distillate how many people here collect it in discrete amounts?

Lets say for example, after discarding the heads, every 200-250ml (numbers are arbitrary anyway because it will depend of still size of the boiler and the amount in it to how often you cut, I presume) all the way through the run.

My thinking was by collecting it in the discrete vessels every time, and adding similar following runs you could use them with more versatility. Such as, a drink requiring more tails in it (this is where my knowledge is a little thin, gets fire extinguisher... remind me to put that back by the still ) erm whiskey?

Does anyone use this technique of matching the distillate closely to the type of drink they are after? or
Is it just the amount of tails that one would usually run into rather than sections of a run?

I know it can be highly subjective anyway, but does anyone have or can point me in the direction of where cuts should be (roughly speaking) for certain types of drinks Whiskeys/Bourbons, Brandy, Schnapps etc.

[eternalfrost]

well first off you dont have to totally toss your heads...

you will want to toss your FORESHOTS which are the very first bit that comes off (its porportional to the wash size but i forget the numbers) this is where all the poison and methanol is... it goes down the drain

but the HEADS are just the section where there is still a high concentration of nasty tasting hangover chemicals. these you dont want to drink, but you can save them and use them in a reflux column or re-run them in a potstill.

the reason you MUST toss the very first bit is so the methanol etc dosent build up as you keep recycling the heads. otherwise it will begin to push itself into the hearts

for the other question... pretty much everybody does (or should) collect in many small jars. doubly so when your first learning. let them air out over night then taste/smell them and decide what you want to keep and what to recycle.

also, many people will mix some of the tails back into the hearts on whiskeys etc for flavor.

you can also recycle the tails, in a pot still it will concentrate the flavors. the same thing happens as explained with the heads, except this time its good flavor overflowing into the hearts rather then poison. in a reflux still you can save the heads and tails and dump it all back into the next stripping run to recycle it.

[rad14701]

I collect in small baby food jars lined up in a row... No hi-tech numbering scheme, I just keep them organized till analyzed and properly combined into larger groupings...

[absinthe]

yeah i collect in a rank of stubbies and then smell and mix the day after

[Dutchmancreek]

I always collect in half pint jars, line them up on the long work bench in order, let them air out, and blend them the next day.

I think you'll find that collection in small jars is quite common here.

[ZAXBYC]

I presume evapouration isn't too much of a problem leaving open ish jars to the air? Wouldn't want those angels getting too much

Do you cover with a cloth or something to stop dust/flys etc?

[eternalfrost]

I presume evapouration isn't too much of a problem leaving open ish jars to the air? Wouldn't want those angels getting too much

Do you cover with a cloth or something to stop dust/flys etc?

wel actually you DO loose alot to evaporation...that is sort of the whole point, the super-volatile methanols and other nasty shit will vaporize off pretty fast. but no, you wont be actually losing any noticeable product just overnight.

i usually toss like a tshirt over them. in the winter though there really isnt any flys and i dont bother alot of times

[DrTorque]

I collect in 200 mL jars until I know I'm into the hearts, then I collect in whatever larger bottles I have. When it starts getting questionable at the end, I go back to more 200 mL jars. I keep them lined up, too. I'll label them sometimes with a number and maybe a proof. I'll combine them into bottles if they taste good, run them in the next batch or toss them if they don't.

I wasn't leaving them open, though - I'll have to try that. I'll put a paper towel or something over them to keep stuff out.

[BW Redneck]

The best trick I've found for covering jars is paper coffee filters that have been snapped onto the rim of the jar with a rubber band.

When cutting though, make sure to use a spoon to sample from each jar because the rubber smell on the rim may interfere with the cutting process.

[theholymackerel]

I don't do a bunch of tiny collection containers like so many folks do. It just seems like a crap-load of un-necessary busy-work.

Cuts aren't that hard to learn. Once someone is makin' decent cuts by taste and smell the whole run (I'm talkin' potstills here) becomes fast and easy.

I collect foreshots straight into my fuel jar. The heads are collected into one "heads jug". When I deem it's time for the first cut, be it in the heads or body, I switch to my 4-litre collection bottles and collect "body". Some times I don't bother with the tails, but if there seems to be a good bit of alcohol in the tails I collect them and save em seperate.

After the run I pour the body into a carbouy and cover the openin' with a paper towel and let it sit fer a few days to air out.

I look at it like this: Three strippin' runs combined into one final run makes for alotta distillate collected from a keg potstill. If someone is tryin' to learn cuts and how to make fine booze, are they gonna learn better collectin' into a bazillion tiny 200ml jars, and then havin' to check smell and taste each one later? Sound arduous and overwhelmin'. 20 of those 200ml jars is only 4 litres. A decent sized still will produce more than twice that in a final run. Who is gonna be able to tell a difference jar by jar when ya got maybe 50 or 60 jars to smell, taste, and make decisions on? How is someone new to this gonna learn cuts that way?

I think it's easier to learn by moniterin' a hydrometer, and smellin' and tastin' a wee bit of the distillate watered down regularly through the run. Collect yer wee bit of foreshots and discard down the drain. Collect yer heads in a "heads jug" until ya deem yer in the "body". This first cut from heads to body will differ based on what yer makin'. Typically whiskeys have no heads in them. Brandies often have alot of heads in 'em as that it where the fruit flavours come across. Most rums don't have heads, but a few do, and I often make the heads to body cut for a rum in the late heads to beef up the flavour a bit. Ok... so far a wee bit of foreshots were discarded, and the heads were collected in one jug... now start collectin' yer body and use big bottles/jugs untill ya think ya might be gettin' near yer body to tails cut. This is where a hydrometer comes in handy to give ya advance warnin'. Yer tails cut, like yer body cut, is dependent on what yer makin'. A whiskey usually has a small to moderate ammount of tails in it for flavour. The early tails where the smell is a bit funky, but not nasty. In brandies and rums any tails is a flaw. When yer hydrometer readin's of the distillate drops to about 120 proof start payin' more attention and tastin' and smellin' yer distillate (watered down 50/50) more often. As long as it tastes/smells good yer still in the body. Make yer cut from body to tails, clean up and call it a day.

If ya had a nice heathy ferment ya should have little tails and the alcohol in the tails shouldn't be worth the time and energy to get.

If ya mix all yer "body" jugs together and air it out for a few days it should be good booze. If ya were too greedy and took it too far into the tails, ya learned the "don't be greedy" lesson. All ya gotta do is run it again and cut to tails at a higher proof.

[Husker]

I make cuts somewhat like holy, but into multiple containers.

First, I run almost totally using a pot still. For all recipes (except rum), I first do a stripping run. The only cut I make here, is a small foreshot cut (about 200ml out of a 12 gallon run). I then run this, until I have output about 1/4 to 1/3 the starting volume. When all ethanol has been removed, is where I stop. I then store and wait until I have 3 or 4 stripped runs, and combine these into a spirit run. That run is where the "real" cuts come in.

On my spirit runs, I put my fores, right into a "fuel" jug, just like holy. Then I collect heads into a "large enough" jug. "Large enough" is learned over time, for a specific recipe. When starting a new recipe, that you do not know how large of a heads cut is needed. Start with a smaller jug, and go to the smaller jars sooner. Next time you run a spirit run for this recipe, you should have a better idea on how much heads to expect.

When I get near the end of the heads, I start to smell and taste about every 200ml or so. When the heads are almost gone, I stop filling the heads jug, and switch over to 1/2 pint jars. I fill these with about 200ml each. I usually collect 4 or 5 of these jars, until I "know" I am well into the hearts. I then switch over to gallon jugs, and run with these gallon jugs, until I get close to the tails. At that point, I switch back to pint jars, and collect 150ml or so, until I have again removed all (or almost all) of the ethanol. Then all jars and jugs (except the fores and starting heads jug), get aired out by covering with coffee filters and waiting 24-36 hours.

Then, I sample (taste, feel smell), from each head jar, figuring out which to add to the body, and which to add to the heads jar. I do the same for the tails, sampling to tell what goes in the body, and the others get dumped into the heads jug.

I do heads first, because for me, after I have sampled a little, it can become a little more difficult for me to distinguish some of the subtle differences in the heads. I find tails to be pretty easy to tell what is good, and what is not.

When all done, I have a large body, a jug (or 2, if the wash was not very clean to start with) of heads, some jugs of body, and my fores jug has some more volume added. The jug of heads will be added to my next spirit run. I usually let these air out for a week or more. I have some 1 gallon large mouth pickle jars, that I cover with a paper towel, and let air for a week. What is left, is jugged, and re-added back into my next spirit run. There is a LOT of ethanol left in these heads (and tails), and it is a waste to not use this. Also, if you save these up, I have found that I can produce a pretty good neutral from it (air it out good before shooting for a neutral). I do not make much neutral, so this does work out good for me.

H.

[minime]

The jug of heads will be added to my next spirit run. I usually let these air out for a week or more. I have some 1 gallon large mouth pickle jars, that I cover with a paper towel, and let air for a week. What is left, is jugged, and re-added back into my next spirit run. There is a LOT of ethanol left in these heads (and tails), and it is a waste to not use this. Also, if you save these up, I have found that I can produce a pretty good neutral from it (air it out good before shooting for a neutral). I do not make much neutral, so this does work out good for me.
H.

I tried an all heads run a while back and got a VERY harsh tasting/feeling neutral so I've been throwing all the heads away since. I didn't think of airing them out first and when I posted nobody suggested that. I hate the waste so I'm going to give it another try with a good week of airing out.

thanks for the tip Husker

[punkin]

I do my cuts the same as Husker, i think you are letting y'self down a bit if you are doing a lateral cut. Although i could cut just fine on taste alone from the still, if you collect in jars from the heads to hearts cut (i'll run a litre or two into feints from experience first) , there's usually one sweet but not harsh one that adds complexity to your finnished liquor.
It could well be the second last one, but the last one is no good, or it could be the last two are ok.
Then when tails are imminent, either from taste or experience telling you the rate of dropping on your hydrometer, i collect again in 500 or 250ml lots, tasting as i go. Then airing out and tasting later, i'll find one or two jars that are good and then one or two that are awfull. Usually finding a couple of low alchohol (40-30%) ones towards the end that are flavourfull and tasty without the shudders or the wet dog. I mix my total output after cuts together into my BOP, and cut to 65% for safety and aging. all other cuts go into feints for the next run.

I learnt this about cuts by reading what Pintoshine was posting and by going past the point of looking for a cut for tails or heads and looking at flavour matches for hearts. This has very much improved my whiskey and brandy making, and is one of the biggest thanks i owe to this forum. I figure cuts are for choosing what to 'cut' rather than when to 'switch'.

Both ways work fine though and both will produce a fine whiskey, just one may find some more complexity of flavour with Pint's regime.

[HookLine]

You only do this with whiskey?

[punkin]

You only do this with whiskey?

I've mostly been making whiskeies so far, either ujsm type variants with sugar, or all grain.

I've certainly done it with fruit brandies and with white wine brandies. I've done it with double potstilled flavoured vodka type spirits.
I have a batch of rum sitting on the cutting bench awaiting time to taste that's been collected the same way, dunno what i'll be doing in that vein yet.

I've found with brandies and potstilled vodkas that you have to keep the frame of reference foremost when you're tasting. A potstilled lime vodka is not gunna have the same cuts as a whiskey. Although, suprisingly to me, the first batch of lime vodka before i realised the cut regime had to be tightened was recieved with great acclaim by the wide tasting panel, and is still in demand among family and friends.





I definately don't cut that way with my neutral, cuts are made on the fly by dipping my finger in the output. The last jar before a conservative body cut and the first jar of tailswillbeheresoon stuff when the temp first starts rising gets combined together and watered down for my own enjoyment. Only hearts are kept for cutting and storage.

[HookLine]

Thanks for that.

[Husker]

When making rum, I certainly test several of the subcontainers in the heads and tails, selecting the ones which "add" proper flavor to the body. I find that rum has even more of a rollercoaster ride for the flavor. Going from bad to good, to bad to great to horrible to great to bad. I go pretty darn deep into tails doing rum, and use pretty small containers (about 150 ml), as the change can happen pretty quickly. Rum is one of the only things I do in a single distillation run. With rum, I am also a little selective about which of the feigns I add to the next run. Some of those jars are so vile, that I will not put them into a next run.

But like pint "taught" (which punkin was talking about), the testing of each sub cut container, when determining which parts of the run to actually cut out, does help (in my opinion) to produce a fine yet complex end product. Someone else (pugi I think?) discussed some of the complexities of deep running rum, and selectively pulling out certain parts.

H.

[CoopsOz]

Good thread Gentlemen........newbies, bookmark this! I have nothing to add except....if you do cock it up, dilute your collected spirit and try again.

[ZAXBYC]

So Much useful information! Cheers guys.

If you do dilute to do a taste test I assume the best thing to do is to dilute to the % of what the product is you are going to be making with it, so schnapps dilute to 20-25%, whiskey/vodka/bandy, around 40%, and then taste it?

It does kina burn testing 80%+

[minime]

My wife is the rum drinker and I've been working with Pugi's recipe. I've made excellent white rum on the column but pot stilling for a heavier flavor I've had to resort to using a column to remove heads. My wife will not drink my product if there's any heads in there. What puzzles me is she'll drink commercial spirits (appletons and bacardi) and I can smell the heads in both those products. I think she's just being picky but maybe I'm doing something wrong when I pot still.
One thing I plan on trying is a longer aging process with the product able to breath.
I'm open to any suggestions.

[HookLine]

Husker

For your rum runs, is there any general pattern to which parts of the heads and tails you add to the hearts? Or is it quite different for each run?

[Husker]

NEVER test 80% ABV. You will taste nothing. When testing in the heads area, I water down 2 parts water to 1 part product. When testing in the tails area, it is about 50/50 cut.

The water will "open" up the flavors, and allow you to much more easily tell good vs bad stuff. I also smell before tasting, and smell with my mouth open (seems to help get a better whiff). Also, when sampling for cutting, I do not swallow. I taste, kind of chew it, open and breath through mouth, swish around some more, then spit, then again breath through mouth a time or 2. I then give it a few more seconds, then write down observations for that jar. I then rinse my mouth and wait a few minutes before sampling the next jar. About every other jar, I also go back and sample the main body, so my brain "remembers" what flavor complement I am looking for.

I only sample a few ml from each container, so there is little "waste", by the sample-spit method. However, I would rather spit out 75ml, vs ruin 5 gallons. I also want to keep as 100% clear-headed as I can during the process. I know that I will knock down 500ml once I get the good cut, and let it air out a day or so. If I can sample 1/2L of white dog, and get no hang over from it, I feel good that the cuts were right, and aging (if I age it), will only help to improve the product. If I like the end flavor, but get a mild hang over from that 500ml, I will air out more (several more days, and try again). If I try 500 from that, and no hang over, I will age (or not) this product. If I still get a hang over, I will likely put the feigns back in, water it down some, and re-run it, knowing that I put too much junk back in. This has only happened once or twice. It was on rum, that I was shooting for a strong rum, and simply put too much feigns back in, and carried over some crap that did NOT agree with me.

Since starting this hobby, I have become VERY sensitive to hang overs from non-ethanol stuff in the mix. I can NOT drink commercial stuff, without getting a hang over on the spot, after about 2 to 4 drinks. It has actually ended up becoming a pretty good indicator to be used to make good booze. If "I" can get pretty good and drunk on it, and not get a hang over on the spot or later, then it is pretty damn pure, and free from congeners.

H.

[Husker]

Husker

For your rum runs, is there any general pattern to which parts of the heads and tails you add to the hearts? Or is it quite different for each run?

Unfortunately, it has been different most of the time.

Most of the problem for me, is there are just too many variables. I think part of the difference is due to I do not do continual runs of rum wash (like i did with UJSM type washes). I will do a couple, then age that, and it might be 6 months or more before I do another one. Thus, the ambient temperature is different (summer vs early spring, etc). Also, I use feed grade BS molasses, so I am sure that even though the product tag lists it as being "the same", that when the coop gets new truck loads in, that the make up of the molasses is not the same as the prior batch. Different ingredients, different ambient temps, make different end results.

However, I have found that in the tails, the first tails jar sucks, then a good one (or 2), then a couple of awful ones, and usually another couple good ones deep in the tails. For the heads, there is usually one or 2 that are decent, but those are the ones you have to watch. When I ended up having to re-distill due to giving myself hang overs, it was from rum, and I am pretty sure, that I put back in heads that I liked, but they ended up being the culprit. When I sample heads, I make sure I swish it around really good in my mouth, breath through my mouth well when testing, and if I get ANY twinge of a head ache at all, that jar will never go in, even if I liked the aroma/flavor. The times I had to re-distill, I based all my cuts off smell/flavor. Since then, I have been a little more careful, and there have been a couple times that I liked the smell/flavor, but the short experience with the booze in that jar did not make me feel "right", so I did not add it. I have not had to re-distill a mistake in over a year and a half (knock on wood). I just have to remember, it is 6 to 10 gallons vs another 1/2 pint. If I leave out a couple too many, the end result is fine, and I will recover the ethanol on the next spirit run. If I put in even 1 jar that should not have been there, then the whole end result will likely be spoiled. Most people would not know the difference, but I sure will. I will not drink it, if it gives me a head ache, and I have gotten pretty damn sensative.

H.

[Tater]

I toss the four shots and heads on my rum.I all way single run it and when bead starts to fall(around 80 proof)going by taste /smell taste I just quit keeping it.Only time I keep tails is when i have another run to put it in.I catch mine using 1 gallon jars or a 3 gallon ss pot.I add a little used charred pieces of white oak and age in open jars 6weeks to 6 months until more is needed to drink Then a few months before we run out I remove wood filter and add rest of ingredients. its well likes by all here

[HookLine]

Thanks H. Good info.

[punkin]

Did my rum cuts yesterday. it's my first real rum project since my first couplea runs when i started and have been using pretty much Pugis recipe for the wash. Stripped and ran a spirit run a couplea weeks ago, it's been sitting on my bench since then.
There was four, 500ml bottles after putting a litre in the heads container, then three 4 litre bottles of hearts, then four 500ml bottles down to very late tails.

Cuts were tighter than almost anything after smelling and tasting, the last bottle of heads went in and the three bottles of hearts. I was VERY suprised at how the cuts worked out.

Tells me a couplea things i spose, one good thing is that after practising for a while on the still and tasting output on my finger (even at 80%) i'm getting very close to understanding the way my still works and the components of a spirit (even with a new product).

Also tells me i like a rum taste that has cuts more strict than a whiskey rather than broader?

Dunno why, but there it is.

I now have 16 litres aging on some very light toast oak and some almost raw oak and some twice used oak

[ZAXBYC]

One thing I have done, as the run is going, is let a drop or two hit my hand and then rub it in. Leave it to air for a few seconds and then smell it.

Surprising how this afershave tells you where you are in your run!

I wouldn't suggest you do this if you have sesitive skin though, as the ethanol with dry your skin out.

[punkin]

Just rereading my post, i meant to say i have 16 litres aging at 65%, being the twelve litres of hearts, .5 litres of late heads and 3.5 litres of spring water required to take it down from around 80 to around 65%.

Didn't want to sound confusing.

[big worm]

my 2 cents...the actual making of is realy the easyest part for me...the cuts well thats were the hard part comes in. smaller type collecting is the biggest help for me, i kinda wait at least a day or two or three before i start the sniffing. airing out helps heaps i find that while the rig is running i finger taste a drop here or there but,my taste buds and nonstrils are just so filled with the process they are no good to me so i just wait till i have time to just do the cuts. and spoon tasting with a eye dropper and good water is key for me on the tasting part. i seem to be getting better at it but, cuts make or break the stuff. i have some nutral that i cut from the still.....after 3 days i find them to be a tad headdy so i will rerun and cut again. someday i hope to be good enuff to collect and cut at the same time but....till then i will small jar collect and wait on the airing out.

[ZAXBYC]

I did a low wine run last night im my 5l pot still and got an interesting result.

I made the inital cuts at 50ml and then went to 100ml-150ml cuts through the run. Collected about 2.5l ranging from 85%-65%.

The begining of the run was awful, collection 4 was cleanish but had a tang to it 5-7 was really smooth but had a very od flavour, 8 onwards got progressively worse.

The I relised what I had done. I was running an all tails low wine!, explains the smoothness and a bit of the taste.

I also realised at this point, I had used a rubber bung to seal the demi john during transport. After airing and watering down it was blanetly obvious that I has contaminated my low wine as the 'rubberyness' was present throughout the whole run.

This whole run hasn't been chucked though.... it is now fit for only one purpose, starting fires and cleaning!

The original run was a turbo run I believe. suppose my story hightlight to me, and hopefully a lesson to any new people. Never put rubber anywhere near your alcohol, even for a short time and start out with something tastey to get something tastey back, start with crap and.... well you get crap!

Qestion.

If I made myself a wine to distill to brandy, would the brandy taste different if the wine had been left for a year to mature before the distillation process? You can pretty much guarantee the wine will taste far better, but will the distillate?