My New Small Scale Combo Still

[jaidormi]

Looking good, jaidormi. Though your reflux condenser is overkill, only needs to be 6" long.

That's what she said... haha.

Really, though? That's disappointing. Is there a discussion on the forum somewhere on condenser thermodynamics? I'd love to see how to relate the conductivity and thermal mass of my particular coil with coolant flowrates and temperature to arrive at a wattage rating. Haha, probably just better to go by experience, I suppose. Do you go by wattage or column diameter when gauging coil length like that, HookLine?

Thanks for the positive and informative feedback thus far. Anybody else out there like Arak?

[HookLine]

That's disappointing. Is there a discussion on the forum somewhere on condenser thermodynamics? I'd love to see how to relate the conductivity and thermal mass of my particular coil with coolant flowrates and temperature to arrive at a wattage rating. Haha, probably just better to go by experience, I suppose. Do you go by wattage or column diameter when gauging coil length like that, HookLine?

Don't have any specific formula, charts, etc. But I can tell you that my 2" condenser coil is only 7" long overall, and when I tested it on 2400 w of water steam (which takes a lot more to knock down than ethanol vapours), only the bottom 1/3 (about 4 coil turns) got wet. Even 6" is probably overkill, but it gives a good margin of safety.

For a normal reflux run, with about 1400 w power, a coolant in temp of 25-28ºC, and a coolant out of about 45ºC, I am only using around 500 ml a minute of coolant.

[jaidormi]

So I completed the condenser and made my first cleaning and trial runs. Let me talk a little about the condenser first...

reflux 011-1.jpg (59.15 KiB) Viewed 19208 times

This has been by far the hardest part of the project for me. New to metalwork and don't have all the best tools, but I did what I could. The holes I cut in the T left a little too much wiggle room initially so my first solder attempt allowed drip-through and was no good. I had to take it apart and clean it and re-flux and try again. I used shims made from slivers of copper pipe wall that I pounded, shaped, sanded and fluxed. Ugly but functional, and it prepared me for the hose unions at the top of the condenser:

reflux 010-1.jpg (49.51 KiB) Viewed 19201 times

I like the way this looks, even if it is messy. I wanted to go with a closed loop system so I have this set up for clamping hose of 1/2"ID. This was a little more straightforward than the bottom of the condenser although I did end up with the wrong bushings and rather than go back to the store (again!) I improvised with some scrap, again requiring a little shimming but much faster to do this time. Next bottle of gas I buy will probably be MAPP, as it seems it would be good to get the pieces hotter faster, with presumably less heat-spread. Maybe that's a false presumption.

As you can probably see below, I am using a router speed control from Harbor Freight to feather the 1500W element. I have found that this is cheaply built and gets hotter than I like. 1500W takes far too long to heat up, which I should have known, but I guess I am stubborn. I will probably switch to a 240V system very soon with a low density coil and maybe copy one of Pintoshine's controllers. Things I changed from the picture: I only used the rubber hose on the take-off while doing the vinegar-water run, then I switched to 3/8" copper with a (shitty!) brass needle valve. I also grabbed an old sleeping bag to insulate the keg. I will do proper insulation of keg and possibly column soon. I also sealed my unions with flour paste. Flour paste is awesome! Using it for the first time gave the same thrill as watching solder flow faithfully into my fluxed unions on my first solder. I love materials...

reflux 003-1.jpg (64.58 KiB) Viewed 19411 times

I didn't build a graham or liebig yet as the primary condenser took longer than expected and I am impatient, and would not be drinking the product. Also my brother was coming into town and I wanted to make sure he got to participate during his stay.

I am using a 250GPH fountain pump to feed the condenser, which seems to be adequate. Hopefully it will last. When I am more comfortable with the integrity of the condenser, I may put a heater core and blower into the loop, possibly dying the water as a leak indicator, but for now I just use a large reservoir and add cool water / ice as necessary. This will probably not be at all stable enough for reflux running, right? My packing is not here yet so I only ran it as a pot-still.

The runs
I used Wino's sugar wash fermented to ~10%ABV. I think I stressed the yeast too much with temperature variations as the wash itself did not taste quite so neutral. More like a poor quality chardonnay. Even into the hearts this flavor was pretty apparent, but I suppose this is normal for pot distillation. My product ranged from 140 proof down to about 50, where I shut it down. I am anxious to continue running sugar washes and deducing the flavor's origin as the copper develops better patina and my fermentation skills improve.

Hopefully this post didn't ramble too much or thread-hijack. Let me know if you think I should move these posts to the novice distillers section and/or create a new thread.

Running a bigger still is quite a thrill and very fascinating. I will update when I have made my next run, hopefully in packed reflux mode.

CHEERS!

[rad14701]

Looks great, jaidormi... Your posts serve as a good example of how some designs can be scaled up or down effectively... I'd say that my still is about as small as reasonably effective with yours being more the norm, although perhaps a bit taller than some folks might want to run... From what I've read, the Charles 803 continuous column, which is vaguely similar in design, has been scaled all the way up to six inches...

So, are you happy with the performance so far...??? Any surprises...???

[jaidormi]

So, are you happy with the performance so far...??? Any surprises...???

I suppose you mean with respect to the design rather than my implementation thus far, right? Or a combination, I suppose (Damn semantic subtlety!). I think it's a little too early to say, and my relative lack of experience does not equip me very well to judge. I need to run more washes and make more observations and measurements. I have not run it with packing yet, nor have I run any non-pot still, so that will be very informative. I started 18 gallons of WPOSW today, so that should give me something to play with soon.

I think it's fair to say, however, that given a wattage upgrade for run-up, the still's output rate could be very substantial. It will be very interesting to run with a graham or liebig (looking like it will be a graham) and to work on optimizing my cooling potential. At the rate things are going, it appears my fermenting capacity now has to catch up with my distillation capacity. I may have a line on keg shells for "barter" very soon though, so the potential is there to keep this beast fed. I will be happier when I can focus on recipes more than equipment, though: Arak, gin, absinthe, laudanum...

[HookLine]

Looking good, J.

[jaidormi]

Thanks, HookLine. The work of this forum's members is indeed an inspiration, yours and Rad's in particular with this project.

[jaidormi]

Rad, you mentioned that my column is taller that what some folks would want. Is there a performance reason for this or is it just because it's not as discreet/convenient? Also, what height would you recommend I cut the 2" column to for running this as a pot still? I want to do UJSM and herbal infusions as with gin and absinthe.

Thanks!

[rad14701]

Rad, you mentioned that my column is taller that what some folks would want. Is there a performance reason for this or is it just because it's not as discreet/convenient? Also, what height would you recommend I cut the 2" column to for running this as a pot still? I want to do UJSM and herbal infusions as with gin and absinthe.

Thanks!

My comment on height was related more with available working height than anything... For a 2 inch column anything more than 60 inches for the lower column is considered a waste... The practical ratio is 12 - 24:1 with 30 being the maximum...

As far as pot still mode, opinions vary... Some folks just go tall enough to allow for adequate take off work space... Others use 12, 18, or 24 inches... Personally, I mount my head right to the bowl because the bowl and sink strainer give me bout 9 inches of head space above the pot itself... Perhaps dividing the column into two sections, one long and one short, would give you ultimate flexibility...

[Hawke]

I'm a bit suprised that the plastic police haven't slammed you yet. That hose on your takeoff is frowned upon by most here.

Very nice work otherwise.

[punkin]

I'm a bit suprised that the plastic police haven't slammed you yet. That hose on your takeoff is frowned upon by most here.

Very nice work otherwise.

Plastic police probably bothered to read the post before responding.

[jaidormi]

I'm a bit suprised that the plastic police haven't slammed you yet. That hose on your takeoff is frowned upon by most here.

Very nice work otherwise.

Plastic police probably bothered to read the post before responding.

Haha. That's damn funny. In Hawke's defense though, it was a long and rambling post. I'm not sure I even read it...

Thanks for the positive feedback and help.

[jaidormi]

I'm a bit suprised that the plastic police haven't slammed you yet. That hose on your takeoff is frowned upon by most here.

Very nice work otherwise.

More importantly for my health, I probably shouldn't have the router speed control a mere few inches from the take-off vessel, lest I should make a spill and set myself ablaze. Good lookin' out, though!

BTW, the plastic hose was just used on the cleaning runs. Only copper touched what was drunk (me).

[rad14701]

Yep... At least one of the plastic police was watching closely... And I almost missed: Things I changed from the picture: I only used the rubber hose on the take-off while doing the vinegar-water run, then I switched to 3/8" copper with a (shitty!) brass needle valve.... I was busy drooling like a size queen...

[Hawke]

I stand corrected.
That'll teach me to come here after a few T.D. Irish, and right before bed.

[maheel]

Hi guys and gals this is my first post but i have some distilling exp, i have been using a offset head reflux for years but have not need to run it for ages due to large amount stored up. some bottles dated 2004

going to get backinto it as supplies are lowering and i was thinking of building a new one as the old girl is looking a bit worse for wear..... and i have the itchy build fingers from reading this site again

anyway

with the colum you are building in this thread are ther any issues with heat build up in the collection area ? i was thinking it might start to heat up at the end if the run and cause issues? Has there been any noticable issue? this is why i built a offset head along time ago but really like the look of this design, easy to make with less part...? (not saying offset is any better thats just what i built)

what sort of % is it doing ? my old girl is happy at 90 - 92ish and just was wondering that this can do that as well

would an idea be to run the water into the collection condensor 1st then into the "primary" (top colum) or do you feel this will increase the coolant temp to high?

an looking to use my 25 L boiler and maybe upograde to keg using most likley 2inch pipe (maybe 1.5 inch)

what temp are you looking for as an exit coolant temp?

and what temp exit for product, i dont like to see any "steam" at the collection point

many thanks for the top write up and pic's i am off to the scrap metal man to see whats floating around the copper bins

[rad14701]

Welcome to the forums, maheel...

As far as the temperature in the collection area, it is always hot and that is why you need a secondary condenser in the take off path... I've entertained the idea that perhaps increasing the distance between the lower column and the condenser section might prove beneficial... Unfortunately, due to the thermal properties of copper, I doubt there would be more than a marginal improvement in temperature differential... But, hey, you never know... This design may have more temperature differential than the Bokakob design - but perhaps not...

[rad14701]

While I still intend to make a Graham condenser for this still I decided to make a liebig with what I had here onhand... Using a wet rag to keep the take off tube cool was getting old... After my last run, 8L of brown sugar wash, on Monday, I decided enough was enough... The photo below show what I came up with...



Because I didn't have reducers onhand, and the fact that they are pricey and I'm cheap, I improvised... I cut two 1 1/2" pieces of 1/4" copper as inlet and outlet nipples... I then crimped a 6" piece of 1/2" copper so it fit fairly snug around both the nipples and the take off tube which runs diagonally through the 1/2" copper... Next I fired up the propane torch, heated, fluxed, and sweated, and it was done... From start to finish took less than 30 minutes including parts gathering and cleanup... Now I just need to get some wash fermenting so I can give it a good workout...

[jaidormi]

Rad, that is awesome! Or is it rad? Haha. Your improvisation makes me happy; sort of like the approach I take to auto mechanic work. Drive a 1970 VW bus across the country and you'll never look at a paperclip or a hammer the same way again.

I think endcaps would be just fine as opposed to reducers, too. Just drill the appropriately-sized and -located holes in the top and you're off.

Do you plumb your condensers in parallel or series? Are you using a pump or the tap?

I read you say elsewhere that you shoot for around 14% abv with your sugar washes. Are you using an approach similar to this one? I want to try that recipe after my WPOSW is done. 10% wash is just too weak to be efficient for me to work up a low wines run for a 15 gallon keg, even with my heater coil installed as low into the pot as was feasible.

I'll have to dig around up some pictures of "improvisational" things I have made/fixed.

[rad14701]

I think endcaps would be just fine as opposed to reducers, too. Just drill the appropriately-sized and -located holes in the top and you're off.

Yes, endcaps would work just fine, and be cheaper, too, if you have them onhand... I considered just crimping the take off tube and then drilling holes for the coolant nipples, but the battery in my drill was dead...

Do you plumb your condensers in parallel or series? Are you using a pump or the tap?

I run my condensers in series... Tap water goes in the bottom of the liebig, out the top, up into the reflux condenser, and out into the drain... For full scale stills I use a recirculating pump whenever possible...

I read you say elsewhere that you shoot for around 14% abv with your sugar washes. Are you using an approach similar to this one? I want to try that recipe after my WPOSW is done. 10% wash is just too weak to be efficient for me to work up a low wines run for a 15 gallon keg, even with my heater coil installed as low into the pot as was feasible.

Yes, I always shoot for pretty close to 14%, using 1 cup (1/2 pound) of sugar per liter/quart of wash regardless of which recipe I use... I experiment a lot because I like using household ingredients as much as possible... I've done DWWG, Graham Cracker, Brown Sugar, Cheerios, Corn Flakes, and several combinations... I can post several recent recipes that have all fermented dry in less than a week if you like, or I can PM them to you... All should be scalable but are works in progress... I haven't tested SG or FG on any of them as of yet but haven't had a stuck ferment in about a year...

[Ayay]

Rad, that liebig looks so right they should have always been that way!

[jaidormi]

If you could post or PM them that would be great. Might be better to post them in the recipe section though, I s'pose. Do you use heating pads or keep a warm home?

[HookLine]

I like it, rad. Good improv.

[theholymackerel]

Very nice design.

Elegant in it's simplicity and cheapness.

I like it alot (even though I'm a coil-in-a-bucket kind of guy).

[wombat_831]

yea it would be great if you could post those recipies

[aleksandr1]

hi, I saw some interesting stills At http://www.ferromit.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[rad14701]

Well, I finally used the new liebig condenser yesterday to run off 8L of a recipe I'm working on and it worked great... Actually more efficient than needed... With everything else I had going on at the still I totally forgot to check the temperature of the collected spirits... I'll try to remember when I run the next batch... I'm more than pleased with the performance given the overall simplicity...

I'll post more about the recipe once I get consistent repeat performance across several batches... The only hints I'll give for now are that it uses wheat germ, both white and brown sugar, and has completed in well under 48 hours... Proportions and other ingredients are part of the continued fine tuning... Stay tuned...

[jaidormi]

That's awesome, Rad. Are you running your liebig at an angle or vertically?

[rad14701]

That's awesome, Rad. Are you running your liebig at an angle or vertically?

Just off vertical by a few degrees to keep the collection vessel further from the boilers heat... Perhaps 60 - 75 degrees... I may end up going straight out of my needle valve and through the liebig, which would be about 45 degrees off the reflux head, by removing the bend I currently have between the valve and liebig... I'll try to remember to take more pictures the next time I assemble everything...

[jaidormi]

OK, I finally feel like I have something to report and possibly even something intelligent to say (never say that out loud..)

Late last week I ran my column with full packing for the first time. I am using copper-woven tubes like what Amphora Society sells. I only had ~6 gallons of cleared WPOSW at ~10%ABV but I was so excited to run a reflux column that I didn't bother waiting till I had low wines saved up. My understanding is that by running only 10% wash, my theoretical plates are only 11.2, whereas with low wines (40%ABV) I should have effectively 14 plates (at R/R of 3 and 1125W power.)

I am at 1125W now because I upgraded to a 4500W/240V LWD element. I have also gone to 100% cork gaskets. P.S. I will never dick around with weld-less kegs again. It is worth it to have a threaded bit welded in just for the peace of mind factor.

Now that I have played with the calculator more I am glad that I have a full 1.2m of packing, in contrast to what you said most people were doing, Rad. Perhaps later down the road I will add more.

Several problems I had: I lack an accurate enough fluid measuring device (ie, no graduated cylinder) to know my R/R precisely, even though I know the wattage input. Secondly, f**k brass needle valves; they are s***t. After equilibriating the column and taking off what I deemed to be the foreshots, I attempted to open up the valve a *bit* more and ended up dumping a fat stream of distillate and throwing the column out of EQ. I have since ordered a regulating needle valve in stainless (Hoke) from eBay. Additionally I have begun to feel like the collection reducer should be of as small a volume as is feasible, with the valve as close to the head and on as short a tube as possible. Otherwise, you are collecting a lot of fluid that I don't think has gone through good separation, and the heat transfer is not such (I don't think) that you can really re-evaporate what you have collected. What this means is that your foreshots are coming off AFTER you have completely drained the cup at the top, and are not as distinct (+1 VM heads). This is in my experience, of course, and the heat transfer with 2" pipe may be very different that your 1.25" rig. I wonder why you have yours calibrated to 2 ounces and what your experience and viewpoint is with this "problem."

Anyway, collecting in 100ml increments or so and diluting, smelling, tasting, etc was absolutely fascinating. There is a totally wacky candy/floral nose that comes through my sugar wash (exacerbated by my throwing off the column EQ) that I can only attribute to the peculiarity of Idaho Beet Sugar. It actually creeped me out a lot. I think I need to make sure I am not using such cheap, industrial sugar that may have been solvent extracted or what have you.

I only reached around 89% in total, and I wasn't happy with what I made enough to want to drink it. I couldn't get rid of the beet sugar smell. Next time I will be more patient and let the column re-EQ, and I will have a good needle valve and a set of thermocouples, and a full charge of low wines!

For your viewing enjoyment, I have attached a picture of my new parrot. It needs a funnel yet but it's basically done.