Hi tech cooling - saving water during a drought?

[Ugly]

A freezer can't keep up with the heat generated by a still by a long margin. A fridge actually has a larger compressor and can shed more heat, but still not enough. Just stick a 200watt bulb in your freezer over night and find out. Cooling the liquid before hand but not counting on it to stay cool is the most useful function a freezer can offer.

[rad14701]

Ok gentelman heres my Idea take an used stand up freezer cut holes in the side and run as much pipe coiled up in it as you can turn the temp up to around 33 to 34 deg farh. Circulate that water through a 55 gallon barrel. Use a sepearate pump to run still.

Freezing sounds like overkill... A simple water chiller from a home/office water cooler would be more than enough...

[Tater]

What Ugly said .Cant keep up.A 100 watt light left on in freezer or refrigerator would cause problems.

[Dnderhead]

I do not thank there is a practical way, best Ive seen was a combination , a radiator in the coolant line,running into a tub of water.
the radiator cools off water so the the tub /water does not git as hot. but takes up room not somthing you do in a apartment.

[myles]

OK I have read this post a few times and can not find the info I want. Domestic situation? You need a heat sink. How much water is stored in your header tanks etc in your roof space. Do you use header tanks? The water already in your house is a resource some folk overlook. Do you have a garden? Pond or swimming pool? You do not need to consume the water - it just needs to be available to soak up your heat.

Same is true for heating. I ran a still out in the the arabian gulf in communal housing by extending the hot water ring main to feed a coil in my boiler. Constant free hot water. OK I had slow run times but some french stills run at even lower boiler temperatures.

Re-evaluate your resources. Can you get access to a water store to use as a heat sink? There could be a low tech solution available with a bit of ingenuity.

[nh_yankee]

Hmmmm! 27 cubic feet of space in standard chest freezer. Water = 62.4 pounds/cubic foot = ~1,700 pounds or ~765 kilos...
Build big copper condenser coil in freezer with outlet lower than inlet. Fill freezer with water and allow 2 inches (5.1 cm)for expansion. Turn on freezer. Wait ~48 hours. Now freezer is just big liebig with ice rather than liquid water as coolant. Attach still out put to high end and collect from the low end and hope that it does not freeze up. (turn off freezer at this point.) Run still until done. Disassemble still from freezer/liebig. Turn on freezer. Should be ready for next run in 12-24 hours.

Many green buildings are using ice storage to cool buildings during day time hours and making ice (heat sink) during the cooler evening hours. More energy efficient that way.

Comments?

[Dnderhead]

First I do not thank it whould freeze soled over night and if it did it probably crack the walls. next ice is not as good as ice/water mix
If you do not have room for a 50 gal ( 200L) barrel how do you have room for a freezer?

[Ugly]

Hmmmm! 27 cubic feet of space in standard chest freezer. Water = 62.4 pounds/cubic foot = ~1,700 pounds or ~765 kilos...
Build big copper condenser coil in freezer with outlet lower than inlet. Fill freezer with water and allow 2 inches (5.1 cm)for expansion. Turn on freezer. Wait ~48 hours. Now freezer is just big liebig with ice rather than liquid water as coolant. Attach still out put to high end and collect from the low end and hope that it does not freeze up. (turn off freezer at this point.) Run still until done. Disassemble still from freezer/liebig. Turn on freezer. Should be ready for next run in 12-24 hours.

Many green buildings are using ice storage to cool buildings during day time hours and making ice (heat sink) during the cooler evening hours. More energy efficient that way.

Comments?

I want one of those freezers that can freeze 27 cubic feet of water solid in 48 hours or so. Might work if it was outside at -30 C or so

OK, this is all insane (relatively speaking) the energy requirements are getting out of hand, you could build and run an atmospheric evaporator and have fresh water for less money.

A simple radiator with a shroud and fan is capable of cooling the thing adequately without all the foreplay a freezer requires. If you want detailed calculations and volume requirements you need to know the specific amount of BTU (or whatever units you choose) of heat you need to get rid of.

I provide the following simple formula as the basis for further exploration;
The Specific Heat Capacity of water is 4200 J / degC / Kg

1 L of water weighs I Kg so it's fairly easy to figure out what's going on by volume with water.

[Dnderhead]

There's is a couple ways to conserve water,depending on setup. 1) use radiator with reserve . use heat to dry something as grain, cook grain mesh. 2)use the water for something else
as domestic hot water ,, do a wash, take bath etc. then use water for garden, lawn etc.none gone to wast.
this sounds like US automakers,add gadgets to engines to reduce air pollution so you can use more gas to make more pollution.
( waiting for cataletic converters on jets)

[big_daddy_d]

The system I use right now is very sufficent. 30 gallon barrel 3/4s full, frozen 2 and 3 liter coke bottles.Toss 3 or 4 bottles in swap them out when they thaw out, place others in freezer.when i use all of my bottles up it takes 48 hours for them to refreeze solid. Since October of 2008 ive not had to use anymore water.I have about 20 bottles.





My thought on the freezer and pipe. Take a 55 gallon barrel(insulated), full of water run pipeing in freezer say 50 to a 100 feet.A couple of bays before running turn freezer and cir pump on. On day of run turn freezer off. Run your still should be enough cold (33 to34 degress farh.) water to run the still for a good 8 hours or so.

[theholymackerel]

If yer usin' a coil in a bucket/barrel and yer bucket/barrel is larger than yer boiler you DON'T need any runnin' water or ice or anythin'.

Just don't do somethin' stupid like stirrin' the water. Ya WANT it to seperate into seperate layers based on temperature.

The cool water will stay on the bottom and make sure yer yer distillate leaves the coil cool, and the hot water is produced from the first few inches of the coil mostly and stays at the top and steams, thereby dumpin' energy into the atmosphere and removin' it from yer system. (Fill yer barrel all the way to the brim, so it's easier for the breeze to wick away steam and heat.) If ya use a big enough barrel the top can be steamin' and hot enough to burn the hell outta you and raise blisters while at the same time the bottom of the barrel is cool and allows cool distillate to emerge from the bottom of the coil.

I realise a high-tec solution was asked for, and this is definately Low-Tec, but it's very smart Low-Tec. It doesn't require runnin' water, it doesn't require electricity for ice or pumps or anythin', it has no movin' parts to fail, it's basically idiot-proof and proven over centuries of use.

A coil in a barrel even gives ya the added free gift of hot water to clean up yer gear after the run. What a deal!

[myles]

I am a big fan of Liebigs but you have to admit that theholymackerel does have a point. Coil in bucket is well proven technology and sized to match the still it is flawless. Just not as 'satisfying' as a nice shiny Liebig but that is purely a personal point of view. If I was going to run consecutive batches I would deffinitely be using a worm as a wash pre-heater

[browndog]

this is what i do. i have a plastic 200 litre chemical drum with the lid cut off. i use a 600w (3800 LPH) centrifugal garden water pump that goes through my lei-big condenser and my still condenser on separate plumbing lines and it all dumps back to the drum. after about 2-3 hours the temp starts to rise in the drum. so i go to the freezer and grab a couple of ice cream containers with ice in them, chuck them in and there's no worries for another 1-2 hours. when the run is finished and the water has cooled down by it's self just fill the ice cream containers back up using the water from the drum and whack it back in the freezer. also thought of a cloth type cooling system using a frame covered in cloth over the top of the drum return lines flow water down the cloth into the drum while a fan cools it. incorporate these two methods and it will keep the temp down. ...... anyone done this?

[Wormy]

I picked up a small chest freezer at an auction a while back for 50 bucks. I take my square cooler minus the lid (somewhere around 7 or 8 gallons) and fill it about 3/4 full with water and put that in the freezer. I've got an aquarium water pump in the cooler and I drilled 2 holes in the side of the freezer for a supply and return line. I drilled the holes big enough to fit rubber grommets in that would allow a 1/2" hose to pass through with a nice tight fit. With this set up I can use the same water every time, I just unplug the freezer when I'm done distilling. The water always stays cold and I've never had a problem with the freezer not being able to keep up. Just keep in mind that I may be running a smaller operation then most of you. I am using a 6 gallon pot still, which reminds me, a reflux still is going to require more cold water so in the case that I ever convert to a reflux still then my freezer would probly not keep up. This is just how I do things, not saying its right or wrong.

[Dnderhead]

a 6 gallon reflux still will take about 10 gallon of water to cool.

[lloyd778]

This is what I do. A bucket of water, aluminum mini blinds and a small aquarium pump. Basically it is just a swamp cooler.

[absinthe]

for a stable temp i would use a 44 gallon drum or similar you could go smaller with this setup, and have a radiator, a fan, and 2 thermostats..

the water goes round and round the still cooling loop till the water reaches a set level then the second pump turns on with starts to supply water to the radiator..

the one a second temp is reached a fan switches on on the radiator until the system cools off enough then the fan switches off again..

i find that with about 100ltrs of water and a radiator working passively (no fan) it will almost keep cool on its own and add to that some bursts of a fan and she should stay nice and stable:

[eternalfrost]

hey absinthe, you would probably get more efficient cooling if you ran the hot water directly through the radiator then into the reservoir. that way you always have the hottest water possible in the radiator, which will throw off more heat. the way your drawing is, the radiator water is always at the reservoir temperature, and wouldnt start throwing off much energy till the whole system heats up. this way it would suck out as much energy as possible before it ever even reaches your reservoir.

not sure if you can do it with the equipment you have on hand and all, but it would work better on paper.

im looking to eventually do a closed loop system like this so thats helpful info! putting all that water down the drain just seems like such a waste.

[absinthe]

its just a design i thought because he was after a more stable temp and as the air temp fluctuates a fair bit from what he was saying then having the rad on a separate pump might help the situation..

i don't have mine setup like that mines from the still through the rad (and that only in the summer in the winter i find the water never really get to hot to worry about and i don't do many reflux runs anymore)

[monahanajj]

The guy at the local brew shop showed me some pics of his system, he uses an old icecream fridge (you know the one with the sliding top glass door). He puts a large tub of water in there and simply uses a garden hose. I asked him if he used copper line coiled to increase the efficiency but he said he doesnt need to.
You can also buy a little pump to recirculate from a water tank 205lts or more for around $30 bucks. I have a 10,000 litre water tank and recirculate the water from that - works great. Best of luck...

[Ethanol Al]

I don't know if this has been settled yet or not but here is my idea of what may work for the OP. If I understand correctly he was running a reflux still so here is an idea to use a radiator and a worm in a barrel and a fan. I would possition the fan and radiator so the air moving across the radiator blows on top of the water in the drum. Oh I forgot to include a pump in the drawing but you get the idea. Don't know for sure that it wold work but don't see any reason it wouldn't. Hope this helps, Al

Click on the image for a better view.

[myles]

I run Liebig condensers on my rig, normally with a pond pump off a barrel with frozen milk cartons added. I recently picked up for free a 240v centrifugal fan. Output is 300 cubic feet per minute, and out in the barn is an unused radiator that I took out when doing a few changes in the house.

I am thinking I may be able to combine the two and not bother with adding the ice. Not sure how loud the fan will be though.

[airhill]

I am currently running a small pump in a barrel through the rig into a copper car heater unit cooled by an evap cooler (uses a few litres of water) back to the barrel.
Have found the heater unit not large enough and slightly restrictive and will be trying a car aircon radiator (exchanger) next.

[eternalfrost]

peltier coolers have been mentioned. by chance, i have been using some recently at work. i dont think they would be good for this situation. first off they are the least efficient form of cooling. only about 10% compared to 20-30% for standard compressors.
second, they are pretty expensive. about 50 cents per watt of maximum heat pumping. this might not sound to bad, but at maximum heat pumping, the delta T is small, like 10 degrees.

they are really meant for keeping electronics cool, removing tens of watts not thousands. for example what i am using them for is cooling down IR CCD photon detectors. now im sure it would be possible to do, but you would need dozens or hundreds of devises and elaborate finned and fanned air cooling or liquid cooling systems plus quite alot of electrical power to make it happen.

i still say a huge water reservoir big enough to absorb the energy is the best simplest way to go, just a 55 gallon rain barrel for 30 bucks off ebay. or if you dont have the space a small closed loop liquid system with a radiator and fan.

[trimpy]

I got a 265 gallon IBC tote from some local guy for 40 bucks a year ago. Its attached into one of my downspouts so it gets filled with rain water. I use a $70 submersible pump from the local home improvement store hooked up to my condenser. The only time I ever got a noticeable temp change (maybe 10-15C) in the tote is when I ran 4x10gal stripping runs back to back w/ a 3500W element.

Only problem is that the tote weighs over a ton when full

[decoy]

i have been using one for a few years, works well keeps the water at 30-35c on a average day in Oz..
its a small refrigeration coil and fan, i was thinking about adding evaporative cooling but there was no need.

[decoy]

pic from fan side..

[blanikdog]

If yer usin' a coil in a bucket/barrel and yer bucket/barrel is larger than yer boiler you DON'T need any runnin' water or ice or anythin'.

Just don't do somethin' stupid like stirrin' the water. Ya WANT it to seperate into seperate layers based on temperature.

The cool water will stay on the bottom and make sure yer yer distillate leaves the coil cool, and the hot water is produced from the first few inches of the coil mostly and stays at the top and steams, thereby dumpin' energy into the atmosphere and removin' it from yer system. (Fill yer barrel all the way to the brim, so it's easier for the breeze to wick away steam and heat.) If ya use a big enough barrel the top can be steamin' and hot enough to burn the hell outta you and raise blisters while at the same time the bottom of the barrel is cool and allows cool distillate to emerge from the bottom of the coil.

I realise a high-tec solution was asked for, and this is definately Low-Tec, but it's very smart Low-Tec. It doesn't require runnin' water, it doesn't require electricity for ice or pumps or anythin', it has no movin' parts to fail, it's basically idiot-proof and proven over centuries of use.

A coil in a barrel even gives ya the added free gift of hot water to clean up yer gear after the run. What a deal!

Maybe I'm just a luddite, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone would want to go beyond Holy's post, unless you are using a lieberg and as I don't use one I really don't know. However if one is using a pot still, this has to be the most efficient use of cooling water. I use the same water for many runs and simply top up the 25litre bucket each time. Done carefully I use around a litre of water each run. Now that's efficient and the water has a gradual coooling affect that is required..

blanik

[Hack]

Maybe I'm just a luddite, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone would want to go beyond Holy's post, unless you are using a lieberg and as I don't use one I really don't know.

There seems to be a variety of distiller that is fascinated with technological complexity for its own sake. I suppose you can find people like that in any hobby. There's no harm in it as long as they are enjoying it I suppose, though at times it seems an expensive and difficult way to go. Myself, I get off on elegance of design, simplicity, quality, and efficiency. Though I make no claims to have mastered any of it, I enjoy the pursuit.

[decoy]

There seems to be a variety of distiller that is fascinated with technological complexity for its own sake. I suppose you can find people like that in any hobby. There's no harm in it as long as they are enjoying it I suppose, though at times it seems an expensive and difficult way to go. Myself, I get off on elegance of design, simplicity, quality, and efficiency. Though I make no claims to have mastered any of it, I enjoy the pursuit.

I do enjoy technology but at the same time simplicity is also a huge target as well.

up untill a few months ago i was restricted to a small courtyard in the units i lived in, so i did not have the luxury of water tanks or drums and with water restrictions and high charges for excess water usage where a serious concern that was my reason for making the above air cooled unit, i even operated it inside.