first still design

[black_labb]

hi everyone
i'm new here, but have been planning a still for a few weeks now and have found this site very useful. thanks to everyone who contributes.

i am looking to make a reflux style still with a small thumper type attachment that is to be used for flavouring like a gin head. I will fill the flavouring thumper with herbs/essences/molasses/fruit and maybe even charred wood/carbon to try and "age" the spirit before it has even been through the condenser. this will be something to experement with.

here is a rough paint drawing of what i am planning.


the black dots are scrubbers (i'll get either stainless or copper or a combo, depending on what i can find), the green dots are whatever flavouring items i decide on. everything else should be pretty self explanitory.

i bought a 30L coffee urn for the boiler. it has a 2800W heating element in it with a temperature control. i'm not sure exactly how it works. it may be a rheostat or it could be a system that turns the element on when the temp drops below a certain temp. the urn doesnt seem to be a high quality unit but it should get me going for a first still without using external heating which i would like to avoid for safety and portability reasons.

here is the urn i bought. i also ordered a stainless bowl to use as a lid/base for the reflux tower which should fit.



now i have a few questions.

how much of a difference does it make to have adjustable cooling into the reflux system compared to scrubbers only? i have considered putting the cooling pipes for the condenser through the reflux column (like http://www.moonshine-still.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ), but i am a bit unsure about wether i should. i would like to have my first run quite simple by not having much to control (just the amount of water into the condenser). then again i dont want to feel i have to upgeade the column soon after building it.

i would like to insulate the boiler to save energy used. what is a suitable material? this is for the pot with a ~350mm/14" diameter.

does the flavouring thumper sound like a good idea? essentially it will behave like a gin head i guess.

are there any threads about different ideas for a gin head that are worth reading? any recipes specific to gin heads aside from gin?

is press fitting some parts adequate for emergency pressure release or are there better ways to release pressure if something gets clogged in the system? i plan on pressing on the cap where the thermometer fits on and the digital thermometer is pushed through a rubber stopper into the head. would these seals dislodge if there is too much pressure as opposed to the boiler exploding?

many thanks everyone

[plonker]

Hi BL.
So far your design looks like a thumper design.. Which is a great design!!

I would suggest to run it without scrubbers or reflux until you are comfortable with it, A thumper gives you a pretty high abv anyway..

When you are comfortable with it, add some scrubbers, see how that goes, If you really want a more neutral spirit after all of that, then add a reflux column...

The idea of flavoring with your thumper is great, I just built one today for that very reason...

However I do know some guys flavor in the primary, before the thumper, try it both ways..

[rad14701]

black_labb, plonker is correct... Your design is nothing more than a pot still with a thumper... The column packing is of little benefit unless you have a reflux condenser at the top of the column... I wouldn't suggest cooling tubes for reflux, however... If you were to add an extension at the top of the column with a coiled reflux condenser you will have a combination still that can be used either as a pot still with thumper or as a vapor management column... In vapor management mode you would replace the thumper with a gate valve...

You will also need to bypass the thermostat on that urn as there won't be a setting for continuous boil which is what you will need for proper still operation...

There are several gin basket designs here in the forums as well as VM column designs...

Good luck...

[plonker]

Ahh. one more thing BL, if you did put a reflux coil up the top of the column, I doubt you would build up enough pressure to get the thumper working... probably just stay in full reflux.. not sure though, never tried it..

[rad14701]

You're right, plonker... You can't run a top reflux condenser AND thumper at the same time unless you have the column top capped...

[black_labb]

thanks plonker and rad
i'm thinking of maybe scrapping the thumper section and just putting the herbs on top of the packing material on SS mesh. i'm also thinking that i will make the reflux column part removable to turn it into a pot still for some more experementing and options.

the urn has an adjustable temp up to 130 oC for some reason (for some really hot coffee?) . hopefully it will work well without changing the electronics to bypass the rheostat. guess i'll have to see. i have a 240-120v stepdown transformer which could work to ease the 2800W to ~750W for a slower boil if i needed to bypass the switch. wether the stepdown tranny is rated for 6 Amps+ could be an issue though.

i should have a design drawn up soonish. just need to get to a plumbing supplies store to find out what attachments are possible to use.

[Dnderhead]

it is not the temperature, it is the cycling, appliances rise to temperature then shut off, cool then repeat. and you just cant run a still that way.

[plonker]

thanks plonker and rad
i'm thinking of maybe scrapping the thumper section and just putting the herbs on top of the packing material on SS mesh. i'm also thinking that i will make the reflux column part removable to turn it into a pot still for some more experementing and options.

Sounds interesting, dont know much about running herbs, but Im keen to find out...

the urn has an adjustable temp up to 130 oC for some reason (for some really hot coffee?) . hopefully it will work well without changing the electronics to bypass the rheostat. guess i'll have to see. i have a 240-120v stepdown transformer which could work to ease the 2800W to ~750W for a slower boil if i needed to bypass the switch. wether the stepdown tranny is rated for 6 Amps+ could be an issue though.

This sounds interesting too, if as you say the transformer is rated for 6 amps, could be a solution maybe?.. .[/quote]

I think posting your designs and ideas here is a great move, the guys here have the experience to tell you if your design will work before you spend big$$$ on it.. And saving money sounds like good idea....

Good luck!!

[rad14701]

I don't think you want to be refluxing through your herb basket as it will impart too much essence... A once through is generally enough...

[black_labb]

I don't think you want to be refluxing through your herb basket as it will impart too much essence... A once through is generally enough...

do you mean that by having such pure alcohol from the reflux column going through the herbs the flavour from the herbs will be too strong in the spirit? if this is the case i will try to scale back the amount of herbs and dilute if neccesary. i guess it can be used as an essence if its really really strong.

it is not the temperature, it is the cycling, appliances rise to temperature then shut off, cool then repeat. and you just cant run a still that way.

thanks. i'll have to see what happens i guess. bypassing it might be necessary, but a 2800W element will probably be a bit too powerful for a continuous boil for a still of this size and boil a bit too hard.

thanks plonker and rad
i'm thinking of maybe scrapping the thumper section and just putting the herbs on top of the packing material on SS mesh. i'm also thinking that i will make the reflux column part removable to turn it into a pot still for some more experementing and options.

Sounds interesting, dont know much about running herbs, but Im keen to find out...

the urn has an adjustable temp up to 130 oC for some reason (for some really hot coffee?) . hopefully it will work well without changing the electronics to bypass the rheostat. guess i'll have to see. i have a 240-120v stepdown transformer which could work to ease the 2800W to ~750W for a slower boil if i needed to bypass the switch. wether the stepdown tranny is rated for 6 Amps+ could be an issue though.

This sounds interesting too, if as you say the transformer is rated for 6 amps, could be a solution maybe?.. .

I think posting your designs and ideas here is a great move, the guys here have the experience to tell you if your design will work before you spend big$$$ on it.. And saving money sounds like good idea....

Good luck!! [/quote]

i had a look at the transformer and it is only rated for 240VA which is 2A @120VAC, so that wont be the go.

thanks everyone. i'll post some more detailed drawings when i get a bit of a design drawn up.

when i get this up and going i will be doing some experementing with different types of wood for ageing as i make guitars as another hobby and have plenty of offcuts of different timbers. i'll post some results, but that will be after i get the still running well.

[black_labb]

here is the progress
i picked up most of the bits for it today, but need to get some SS bolts to attach the column to the bowl, and some cork sheet for a gasket for the link to the bowl to the column and possibly the bowl to the boiler. then it will be time to put it all together then give it a test run.




needs a bit of cleaning up, but that can be done once its all together.
the column is ~700mm long, the condenser itself is ~600mm. the 1/2" copper tube through the middle of the reflex column is the cooling to control the amount of reflux. i can use hose connections to join the tower to the condenser in different ways to control the amount of reflux (connecting the cool water to the reflux tower first then to the condenser would mean there would be more reflux due to more cooling in the column)

i made it so i can either use the reflux column or use a shorter unpacked column and use the same cap and condenser (there is more of the 65mm tubing left over, just need to make another join to the bowl which shouldnt be hard.

[Hack]

... is pushed through a rubber stopper into the head.

Rubber in contact with high abv alcohol is bad business.

Those tubes you have running through your column aren't the best design either. If your goal is to make neutral spirits a reflux column is the best for the job. Take a look at the vapor management types (VM) in the reflux section. It's a better design compared to the one you are using.

I'd suggest taking a couple steps back and let your brain marinate in some of the info you're getting here before completing your build.

[black_labb]

... is pushed through a rubber stopper into the head.

Rubber in contact with high abv alcohol is bad business.

Those tubes you have running through your column aren't the best design either. If your goal is to make neutral spirits a reflux column is the best for the job. Take a look at the vapor management types (VM) in the reflux section. It's a better design compared to the one you are using.

I'd suggest taking a couple steps back and let your brain marinate in some of the info you're getting here before completing your build.

i'm not too fussed about the exact level of alcohol that comes out, just want it purer than a pot still and feel that a (seemingly badly designed judgeing by comments) internal reflux still will suit me well. i'm also cautious about having the system able to be sealed from the outside which some seem to be, and this design seems easy to design and controling it doesnt seem to complicated. just add heat and cooling water.

the rubber for the stopper was reccomended to me by some guys at a homebrew shop, but i can make one from a cork or even make the hole very similar in size and use the flour/water trick.

[kiwistiller]

i'm not too fussed about the exact level of alcohol that comes out, just want it purer than a pot still and feel that a (seemingly badly designed judgeing by comments) internal reflux still will suit me well. i'm also cautious about having the system able to be sealed from the outside which some seem to be, and this design seems easy to design and controling it doesnt seem to complicated. just add heat and cooling water.

why not get it as pure as you can? you can always dial down the purity, but it's hard to increase it again. CM (cooling management) is what you've got there. It has its applications, but it is certainly not easy to control... I wouldn't recommend it by itself (as part of a combo still is different the alternatives aren't able to be sealed, so don't worry. both LM and VM are open at the top.

not saying you won't be able to make decent shine with that unit, but I can tell you that you'll be itching to build something else after a while of using it (and getting up to change the water flow constantly).

[Hack]

i'm not too fussed about the exact level of alcohol that comes out, just want it purer than a pot still and feel that a (seemingly badly designed judgeing by comments) internal reflux still will suit me well. i'm also cautious about having the system able to be sealed from the outside which some seem to be, and this design seems easy to design and controling it doesnt seem to complicated. just add heat and cooling water.

Don't take any of this the wrong way, figuratively speaking, I'm hoping to help you avoid trying to reinvent the wheel before you understand how it works. Generally speaking, a reflux still is a one trick pony, it's best suited for neutral spirits like vodka. If you want pretty much anything other than vodka, a pot still is the way to go.

Another way of saying it is, purity translates to less flavor. If what you mean by purity is better quality spirits that won't make you sick like store bought, that comes down to how you make your cuts, and you're going to have to learn to do that whether you are running a pot still or a reflux.

[rad14701]

black_labb, as Hack and the rest of us have been trying to point out, we're with you as far as your eagerness to get going... Our main concerns are in helping to make your venture as safe and uncomplicated as possible... If you keep throwing disparate concepts together it just makes your learning curve that much greater and also throws more burden our way because we have to help figure out where things went awry and help get you and your equipment back on track...

Case in point... At this point we aren't even sure whether your urn will work properly as a boiler... While it "should", we don't know for certain... Have you even tried keeping water at a constant boil in it yet...??? You're banking a lot on it being able to do so, so why not find out before moving forward...

Next issue... Where did you come up with the notion that a cooling tube at each end of your column was a good idea...??? Not only is this a poor coolant management design, because you have a tube at each end, but you've also made it hard to properly pack the column... The bottom tube is too close to the boiler and actually isn't required at all... Coolant management tubes aren't effective for reflux because they don't provide an even dispersion of the reflux... If the column leans at all then the reflux will run down the column wall instead of ending up in the packing where it should be...

Next issue... Sizing... You're never going to need a 2 meter long liebig for a coffee urn, and I doubt you'd even need one if you were running 5500W of power... It's way overkill for what you're doing... A liebig 2/3 to 1/2 that length would suffice...

Slow down... You're wasting time and money that could be better spent... And beyond that, doing more research and asking a few more questions before you get in over your head would be better than eventually asking for help when things aren't working as expected...

Good luck... We've all had that giddy school girl feeling at one time or another, whether we all would admit it or not... Yeah, cause I never had that feeling - really - except that one, at band camp...

[goose eye]

xxxxx an get back to me if you aint thinkin you can top out likker

so im tole

[black_labb]

had a few very busy days so wasnt able to check back.

black_labb, as Hack and the rest of us have been trying to point out, we're with you as far as your eagerness to get going... Our main concerns are in helping to make your venture as safe and uncomplicated as possible... If you keep throwing disparate concepts together it just makes your learning curve that much greater and also throws more burden our way because we have to help figure out where things went awry and help get you and your equipment back on track...

Case in point... At this point we aren't even sure whether your urn will work properly as a boiler... While it "should", we don't know for certain... Have you even tried keeping water at a constant boil in it yet...??? You're banking a lot on it being able to do so, so why not find out before moving forward...

Next issue... Where did you come up with the notion that a cooling tube at each end of your column was a good idea...??? Not only is this a poor coolant management design, because you have a tube at each end, but you've also made it hard to properly pack the column... The bottom tube is too close to the boiler and actually isn't required at all... Coolant management tubes aren't effective for reflux because they don't provide an even dispersion of the reflux... If the column leans at all then the reflux will run down the column wall instead of ending up in the packing where it should be...

Next issue... Sizing... You're never going to need a 2 meter long liebig for a coffee urn, and I doubt you'd even need one if you were running 5500W of power... It's way overkill for what you're doing... A liebig 2/3 to 1/2 that length would suffice...

Slow down... You're wasting time and money that could be better spent... And beyond that, doing more research and asking a few more questions before you get in over your head would be better than eventually asking for help when things aren't working as expected...

Good luck... We've all had that giddy school girl feeling at one time or another, whether we all would admit it or not... Yeah, cause I never had that feeling - really - except that one, at band camp...

the concern about the boiler i understand, but dont worry. i am either going to run the element on full by putting the thermostat on full, or i am going to rewire it with a triac heater coltroller (hackers posted a circuit in a thread i dug up). i build valve amplifiers as a hobby so should have no trouble with implementing the circuit.
i will test the boiler when i do a water run to test the condenser.

the condenser is just over 600mm long, not 2m. it may be a little short for doing stripping runs but will work. i plan on putting scrubbers into the condensers into the condensers. someone did this on a still somewhere i saw on this site. should create a bit more surface area for the cooling and slow the gas down a bit. the scrubbers wont be that much cooler than the walls of the condenser, but will be somewhat cooler.

the point about the cooling tubes is taken and understood. i was just modifying the cooling management design from http://www.moonshine-still.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . it seems their valved reflux design is considered much better. the point that it must be perfectly level to avoid the condensation from running down the side of the column really grabbed my attention. it seems that a "cold finger" is a better design for cooling management. i will look into modifying the cooling tubes to work in a vertical fashion by putting T joints or similar into the cooling tubes within the column.

i will put together the Pot still style attachment (not pictured, just a smaller length of the column leading to the cap connected to the condenser. this will allow me to learn a bit and experement with distilling while rethinking and building my reflux column.

thanks for all the help

[kiwistiller]

it seems their valved reflux design is considered much better.

Well, sort of. It is better but you can still improve on it a lot. if you want a reflux still, I'd say you should be looking at VM or a slant plant LM (boka mini). The VM is easier to run, but the LM will let you get the reflux ration lower which is good if you want to put anything other than neutral out of it. if you have a pot as well, VM is probably the best choice.

[rad14701]

the condenser is just over 600mm long, not 2m

After all these years my metric still sucks... Yes, 600mm/24" sounds better... Depending on heat input it might be a bit short but a bit of copper in it would help knock down the vapor...

[black_labb]

just gave the boiler a bit of a test run. it boiled ~6L of water in 6-7 mins and kept it boiling over nicely without switching off or similar. should work nicely but probably doesnt have much temp control with the current control for determining how hard it should boil.

[black_labb]

finished off the still today, did a test run and then tried it out with 8ish L of wash. the wash was 2kg of raw sugar some ginger tea and some bits of citrus peel. got 1.5L of spirit out when i ran it down to ~20%. first 1L measured ~50% and the 500ml after measured 35% i plan on running that again with what i get out of a stripping run of a bigger batch.

heres a shot of the still with the pot style head.



havent tasted any yet, but i plan on having some saturday night if i can get the extra runs in. probably wont be all that great without ageing

[rad14701]

finished off the still today, did a test run and then tried it out with 8ish L of wash. the wash was 2kg of raw sugar some ginger tea and some bits of citrus peel. got 1.5L of spirit out when i ran it down to ~20%. first 1L measured ~50% and the 500ml after measured 35% i plan on running that again with what i get out of a stripping run of a bigger batch.

<<< SNIP >>>

havent tasted any yet, but i plan on having some saturday night if i can get the extra runs in. probably wont be all that great without ageing

It's gonna taste like white dog on Saturday night... Hope you made decent cuts...

That's quite the high tech method of securing the bowl to the boiler... You probably could have gotten by with a couple dollars worth of binder clips unless the urn itself is unsteady due to height and weight, which doesn't appear to be the case...

Looks like you're on your way... Good luck... And congratulations on a successful run...

[black_labb]

finished off the still today, did a test run and then tried it out with 8ish L of wash. the wash was 2kg of raw sugar some ginger tea and some bits of citrus peel. got 1.5L of spirit out when i ran it down to ~20%. first 1L measured ~50% and the 500ml after measured 35% i plan on running that again with what i get out of a stripping run of a bigger batch.

<<< SNIP >>>

havent tasted any yet, but i plan on having some saturday night if i can get the extra runs in. probably wont be all that great without ageing

It's gonna taste like white dog on Saturday night... Hope you made decent cuts...

That's quite the high tech method of securing the bowl to the boiler... You probably could have gotten by with a couple dollars worth of binder clips unless the urn itself is unsteady due to height and weight, which doesn't appear to be the case...

Looks like you're on your way... Good luck... And congratulations on a successful run...

thanks
the runs i did were really just a stripping run. i will do a run with cuts tonight or tomorrow. i'm thinking i will get some citrus and ginger to put into the column to flavour the spirit. i cant imagine that the natural flavour of my first run will be good enough to not want to mask the taste a bit.

[LWTCS]

I'm thinkin you should leave your virgin batch unmolested.

Give yourself a baseline reference with which to move forward with.

If you bastardize your first hooch before it even makes it out the business end, how will you know what your first white dog is all about?

Macerate some later, but leave it be till it........................IMHO.

[kiwistiller]

agreed. keep it plain to learn the cuts.

[black_labb]

i did the second ditillation and didnt end up with the citrus peel in the column. didnt see the advice before though but its a good point to learn about the cuts.

i collected down to ~25-30% the first bits

i collected the first 4 jars (around 100ml each) separately, then filled 2 750ml bottles and a 375ml bottle. the rest i collected in cups that were numbered so i knew when they came out. the heads were all put back with the used wash (i plan to put it through again with the next wash as there will still be a fair bit of alcohol in it).
the hearts tasted like a neutral spirit between 70 and 80%. the tails had a nice sugar cane taste that everyone liked when diluted, except for the first jar of tails which was harsher than the rest. it went into the keeper bottle anyway as it wasnt too bad. i threw all the tails in as the sucar cane flavour was very nice. i think the sugar cane flavour was mainly from the raw sugar and a bit from the small amount of mollasses.

i ended up with around 3.5L of 60-65%. 2.5L of it is in mixtures (one an aniseed flavoured one, and one to resemble spiced rum).
the spiced rum had orange peel, ginger, cinamon and a bit of vanilla. the aniseed flavour had fennel, aniseed essense, sage, coriander and black pepper. I will try the mixes tomorrow to decide wether the flavours are going to be too strong after a while and remove or add some extra flavouring. i'll also try some of the white dog to see what it is like.

[rumfisher]

how did you go with the urn? i got the same one off ebay for my first setup but it died pretty fast and the eliment rusted within hours of being wet

[irishmike]

sorry for the newbie question but whats the reason for running the cooling water through the top and bottom of the column before and after the condenser?

[trial&error]

with a few slight mods this could be a continuous still

sorry for the newbie question but whats the reason for running the cooling water through the top and bottom of the column before and after the condenser?

adds reflux