freezing after fermenting

[nealbert]

would this work

freezing your wash after it is done fermenting ( to freeze all the water) then drain everything still liquid out.

could you do that then distill it? to get a higher % alcohol in the boiler to start? then you would be able to fit more into 1 run..
it wouldn't shorten the run it would probably make it longer actually because there is more ethanol.

That way you would be able to fit more inside your boiler because the water would be gone. you could even add extra into it because if you were planning on doing a 20L run then after freezing it there would not be 20L left anymore.

I know if you did make lets say enough for 2 20L runs then took out the ice and added what is left then did a 20L run you would have more foreshots to take out but this is just a thought if ppl have the time for longer runs and didn't want the down time inbetween runs (like heating the new fulll boiler to a boil)

[CletusDwight]

Some people do that.
Usually they freeze the wash and then allow the alcohol to melt out.

Whether you use more electricity in freezing or just doing the stripping run is the key question.

[rad14701]

The whole freeze distillation concept has been discussed ad nauseam... It's more bother than it's worth for several reasons... First, it takes time and space... Second, it isn't all that efficient... Third, even if it increases the ABV of the wash it will still need to remain below 40% ABV for safety reasons... Fourth, you'll still have just as much foreshots, heads, and tails in the wash...

No, the run shouldn't take longer because it should come to temperature faster and temperatures should remain more stable... Of course this would also depend on the still design used...

The con's far out-weigh the pro's with regard to freeze distillation, even as an intermediate step in the overall process...

[nealbert]

well i was just wondering i haven't even actually distilled anything yet still researching / hoping i can buy one of someones old one. but why does the alcohol have to be below 40%? are you just talking about drinking it, or when distilling it?

[nealbert]

just remembered what else i was going to say in my last post. wouldn't the distill take longer if you have a 20L wash of 40% as opposed to a 20L wash of 10%? because you would still be running it at the same speed but there would be more alcohol to distill.

[CletusDwight]

why does the alcohol have to be below 40%?

Think about it. You're putting a liquid as flammable as gasoline in a tank and boiling it.
Doesn't that give you goose bumps?

[CletusDwight]

just remembered what else i was going to say in my last post. wouldn't the distill take longer if you have a 20L wash of 40% as opposed to a 20L wash of 10%? because you would still be running it at the same speed but there would be more alcohol to distill.

That's a very much more complicated question than it appears.
The rate at which alcohol is distilled depends in a complicated way on the relative concentration of the wash (which is changing through the run) and on the latent heat of vaporisation of the components. As a Physics question, I would have to be much more sober than I am at present to answer that one.

But that's not the point. You don't simply turn on a still and boil the crap out of it on full power. You have to carefully control the heating in order to separate the undesirable esters, aldehydes and other alcohols etc. from the ethanol. This is where skill and experience come in. A more perfect separation takes longer because it requires more care.
It's more difficult to separate a 20% wash than a 40% and you might (probably would) have to double distil to get the same result.

[nealbert]

Think about it. You're putting a liquid as flammable as gasoline in a tank and boiling it.
Doesn't that give you goose bumps?

well once u put it that way yes it does and thats a very good point. as for the other response I read about people saying they distill at ___mL a minute so I figured they would not go over that limit, and being as there is more ethanol in the boiler it would take longer. but I think i understand what you mean

[CletusDwight]

I read about people saying they distill at ___mL a minute

I see your reasoning.
Yes, all things being equal, if you were pulling off product at x ml per minute then it would take longer if. Can't argue with the Maths.

But as Rad said, a big factor is warm up and stabilisation time. You still have 20 litres to heat up to boiling, If you have a reflux still you have to wait for the column to load up. Then you have to trickle the foreshots out carefully to get them out clean. Then you go on to the heads, again you go careful so you don't mix them into the hearts too much then there's the tails at the other end. It's like catching smoke in your fist - grab too fast and it's gone.
You can't just turn on the tap and have it all pour into the bottle.
Different still designs play a big part. It's a long, complicated story. That's what makes the hobby fun. If it were simple there wouldn't be much point.

Freezing is a bit of a dead end because It's easier/cheaper to do stripping runs for the same result.

[big worm]

if i lived where i could set a bucket outside and it would freeze solid.....i would play with this. it would be way cheaper than stripping.

[Shroud]

I don't know if anyone's still hashing this issue out, but I'm glad I read the discussion so far.

I was thinking of doing the same thing. I have lots of winter available, so I could freeze to my heart's desire shortly after harvest season. I was thinking of harvesting some fruit, turning it into wine, by then it would cold enough outside to freeze distill it down to a workable volume, then heat distill it to remove foreshots and get the ABV up.

So nealbert and I were thinking along the same lines. I do have a couple followup questions, though. Is 40% the magic number or is it a trial and error opinion? I've never thought twice about second distilling a run that came in at over 100 proof before. Why should freeze distilling yield more unstable results?

Secondly, (and if there's already a lengthy discussion please point me to it so I don't waste anyone's time - I couldn't find one) why is it that I can drink X amount of alcohol in beer form and the residual "foreshots" that haven't been removed aren't a health concern, but if I drink the same amount of alcohol in distilled form, suddenly unremoved foreshots are poisonous as hell? The reason I ask is because I was looking at a bottle of wine and thinking, "Why, if I freeze this to remove water and drink it as brandy, would people suddenly think I was crazy or irresponsible for not removing foreshots. On the other hand, if I drank it as a bottle of wine, people would be fine with that." I know I'm concentrating congeners, but I wouldn't be drinking any more than with straight wine or beer. Is there something about this that I don't understand?

I ask because I want to understand, not to pick any fights.

Thanks

[Dnderhead]

Freezing begins at a temperature significantly below 0 °C.
The first material to freeze is not all water, but a dilute solution of alcohol and water.
The liquid left behind is richer in alcohol, and as a consequence, further freezing would take place at progressively lower temperatures. The frozen material, while always poorer in alcohol than the (increasingly rich) liquid, becomes progressively richer in alcohol.
Further stages of removing frozen material and waiting for more freezing will come to nothing once the liquid uniformly cools to the temperature of whatever is cooling it.
If progressively colder temperatures are available,
the frozen material will contain progressively larger concentrations of alcohol, and
the fraction of the original alcohol removed with the solid material will increase

as you can see above not only you loose water you loose alcohol.
in things like ice wine they freeze the grape, remove the water, then they have higher suger content. then when fermented they have higher alcohol.

2) why cant you distill every thing and drink it ? you could if you want the hangover and bad taste and if you drank the same amount of alcohol not
the same amout of liquid. most of what you hear is scare stories, of peple adding denatured alcohol etc.but that is not what we are about
most want make the best that we can make, not just make some "hooch" to git drunk on.if that is what you want just go to the store and buy somthing cheep.

[Shroud]

Dnderhead - I see what you mean about losing a progressively larger amount of alcohol this way. Perhaps this is why the old time advice was to leave a barrel of cider out all winter, then drink the liquid portion sometime in very early spring. The lowest ABV liquid would freeze first, then when it warmed up a little, the highest ABV of the frozen portion would be the first to melt. When it got cold again, the lowest ABV would freeze, then during the next thaw the highest ABV of the frozen portion would melt first, etc, ad nauseum. Perhaps that lead to a higher ABV than simply removing the ice constantly?

I emptied 24 ounces of my hard cider into a martini shaker and set it out. I'm left with a laughably small amount after three days of removing ice. Maybe I'll do the same thing, but leave it out for a month or so and compare the results.

Rest assured, I'm about quality and taste. To me, that means lots of flavor left. Hence, the strategy of raising the ABV with a session of freeze distilling, then a single run through a still to eliminate foreshots and tails. Please don't assume that someone is a lush simply because they think there might be a better way to get the result they are after. Aren't we all continuously experimenting?

[Dnderhead]

some one on here tryed that, but that has been a long time ago.

[Hawke]

A lot of the flavor is carried with the water. Do you want to toss the flavors with the ice, or give them a chance to make it through the still and into your glass.

[Shroud]

Hawke - After freeze distilling I am left with a liquid that is darker in color and stronger in taste than my original cider. Anytime I have run something through a still the result is colorless. It also has a cleaner taste and a higher ABV than I could ever get freeze distilling, but it has lost much of the flavor of its original ingredients.

Like nealbert, I was simply wondering if anyone had found a magic ratio for combining the two techniques. As it stands right now, I think freeze distilling to about 30% ABV, then distilling, yields a more flavorful result than running it through a still twice. Any higher than 30% ABV, I seem to lose a noticeable portion of the alcohol, and I'm left with too little to show for my efforts.

[noobsauce]

I could be wrong but i believe that if you did try to freeze distill under extremely controled circumstances, you might be successful.

BUT by extremely controled, i mean being able to drop the temperature by say 0.1 degree at a time,holding it there and balancing out the whole mixture. then doing this over and over till the water does freeze at a certain point. Where i think i could be wrong though is you might end up with a "super-cooled" mixture where it exists below its freezing point. Then when freezing starts you have an uncontroled full freeze all at once (think i saw it on discovery once). Possibly constant stirring to keep the fluid in motion so as to take out the sudden freeze might work but i am not really sure.

Again i beleive it is possible...but i doubt we would be able to do it.

[Dnderhead]

each tine you refreez ,the percent of alcohol that freezes with the water goes up. so the first time you freez the ice "mite" be 10% water and 1 %
alcohol , the next time you freez the ice "mite" be 5% water and 5% alcohol. also it will have to be colder each time. you freez a mix. not just the water.

[noobsauce]

Oh i definatly agree there would be some losses. I think losses are unavoidable no matter the method of concentration.

What makes me think this is possible to some extent (keeping in mind that im thinking might be useful to go to maybe the 20% mark at most..not much higher or losses and effort might be alot) is experience.

What i mean by this is i dont know how many have tried drinking beer (5% or so) outside in the cold (-10 to -25 celcius). Its a tough thing to do because it has to be kept "warm". there is a fine line when doing it where when opened it slushes alittle, to just outright freezing.

My point is that if you can attain alittle bit of slush instead of freezing then i suspect its working ok. if it freezes or slushes TOO much then not ok.

A possible VERY time consuming method i could see would be stirring the mixture constantly as temperature drops. As you do it start dipping out any slush that starts forming. Obviously freezing point would drop as you removed the starting slush. I imagine any slush you get as you go (removing as you go) will contain more alcohol but how much?...I wonder how far this would be possible and feasable to go?

Im tempted to throw my winter work gear on and go try this outside just to see if it would work ( -25 C right now)....

Whats stopping me is all the neighbors who would wonder what the heck im doing...im sure they wonder at some of the stuff i do already

[Dnderhead]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethan ... d_989.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Shroud]

I'm sure you thought you were making an excellent point by bringing that graph into the conversation, but I'm not sure what. Since my solutions aren't freezing solid at the temperatures my stuff is experiencing outside, all it really does is convince me that the ice I'm pulling off is not increasing in concentration. After all, if I keep pulling ice off at about the same temperatures, say -10C, then I know that the ice can't be any more than 20% ethanol that I'm pulling off, whether it's my first time pulling ice off, or the twentieth. It wouldn't be ice otherwise.

I wonder what would happen if I kept all the ice I pull off in separate bucket, let it melt, then repeated the procedure. Would it all freeze solid, or would it concentrate itself again, just having much less liquid left each time? According to your chart, my cider should have frozen solid the first night out. It didn't; it concentrated itself. I guess it's just like heat distilling. We don't flash boil our washes. Instead the more easily boiled concentrations come off first. Likewise, my wash isn't flash FREEZING, so the more easily frozen part comes off first. Makes perfect sense now that I type it. So maybe my ice, even though it should be a much lower concentration than my original wash will still be able to yield some ethanol, much like the dregs of a first run. The only difference is nature is taking the time and energy (or absence of energy, rather) to do it for me rather than wasting time and energy on the leftovers of a first run. Hmm... Sounds like I have an experiment to do. I'm doubtful of its success, but I'm going to have to try!

Good thing I have a sugar wash almost ready to go. I like to keep one going for just such occasions. I'm always trying new things since I don't have everything figured out already like some other people around here. It must be boring having all the answers already, and exhausting having to tell people like me how wrong they are all the time. Too bad I just can't listen to my betters and I insist on finding stuff out for myself. Life would probably be easier if I just listened to everyone else and did things their way instead of finding my own.

noobsauce - Fascinating! Let me know if you try it. It would be great if it worked. If it does, somebody probably does it that way already, like the ice beer companies. Maybe a search of their methods would answer your questions without the need to stand outside stirring your beer for hours. If you do it yourself, though, could you post pictures? It would be epic!:)

[noobsauce]

Im working on it as we speak...just came in to warm up!! -26C now outside with a -42C windchill......

So far what i have done is make a "batch" of 2 liters at 5%. So far i have done the freezing while stirring thing....an interesting note is i develope ice crystals as i stir...these i lift out with a strainer and let drain as much as possible...they freeze more as they drain. The mixture seems to stay at a slow crystalizing rate which seems to suggest its concentrating to higher % as i go..though not scientific it is giving interesting results...

So far i can say that, while an interesting experiment, its not worth it with the work involved....My arm is sore with stirring already and if not for my "hootch" i been drinking, i would be frozen myself

* I might add my experiment doesnt relate to taste or cuts since im using already distilled neutral in this experiment.

* I also might add,as feared, my neighbour did come out and ask me what im doing....I said Im helping my son do a science experiment with freezing points and liquids. He said couldnt i have picked a warmer day...shook his head, and no doubt added this to another one of my goofy goin' ons...I told you guys

[Shroud]

Perhaps if you ice fish you could have timed it so as not to draw attention.