Need a good vodka recipe

[LearJet]

Hello everyone. Been reading here for months now I figured it was time to start asking questions. I have built a valved reflux still from plans found online. I have made a few different washes and have gotten used to running the still. The best I have gotten it to produce is 88% ABV (corrected for temp). I have tried a plain suger wash, it was terrible. I ran a batch of apple wine I had sitting around, it was so so. I ran several DWWG washes, it is good but not what I am looking for. I am a martini drinker and prefer good vodka. The last time I ran DWWG I did a 20gal wash and pulled about 2 gallons off at 88ABV. I let this air for a few weeks. I then diluted it down to 40ABV, added baking soda and did a spirit run. I made generous foreshot and head cuts. about a pint of foreshots and a whole quart of heads. Pulled the hearts until ABV started to drop and tossed the rest of the tails. I let this air for a few more weeks. I then diluted it to 40ABV and drank. It still has an "off" taste. I don't know how to describe it, kind of scotchy. Anyways I need to know what to do to make a clean neutral vodka I can drink. I don't want to mess with carbon filtering. On the DWWG wash I used distillers yeast with a starter, my starting SG was 1.08. Ferment finished clean and it settled clear. I don't think the off taste was due to my methods of fermenting. I just think that recipe tastes like that. I am thinking of redoing the still and converting it to a VM head to try to get a higher ABV. I have ran the current setup enough to know 88ABV is all it's going to give me. So let's hear everyones suggestions on getting a clean vodka.

[rad14701]

Welcome to the HD forums, LearJet...

I have noticed the same flavor coming form DWWG, as well as other recipes, and I think I know why you are experiencing this flavor... In order to achieve a true vodka flavor you need to either push for an AVB level closer to 95% or you need to do a second distillation... When I push any of my recipes through my reflux column at 90% or lower I have noticed that I need to do a second run in order to get clean tasting spirits... And, honestly, as soon as you drop below about 93% you will start noticing flavor carrying over into your spirits... It doesn't take much impurity to drag off flavors over into your product...

The easiest way is to allow for more reflux by collecting at a slower rate... Aside from that it's a matter of doing multiple spirit runs with diluted low wines... Don't waste time and money on carbon filtering, figure out how to distill clean vodka... It can be done without much extra effort, just extra time...

Good luck...

[LearJet]

Well, 88ABV is all she will do. I guess I need to convert it to VM. It will be pretty easy to convert. Just need to build a leibeg and get a gate valve. I have tried running it with the reflux all the way open and takeoff at just a drop or two a second, and its 88abv. The design is flawed, I wish I would have figured that out before I built it. The column is 2" copper and it's 36" tall. I have it loose packed with copper scrubbers The problem is the reflux valve returns into the column about 24" up. So the last 12" of column ain't doin squat. I didn't do a stripping run, just ran it and collected at 88ABV, diluted to 40ABV, redistilled and collected at 88ABV. If I keep repeating this will it continue to get cleaner or should I wait till I convert to VM?

[rad14701]

Sounds like you have an offset head valved reflux column... I don't think converting to a VM is going to fix the purity problem unless it is a major rebuild... True, moving the condenser head to the top of the column and hanging a gate valve and liebig off the take off branch will make a VM column, but will the packed column section be tall enough to attain your desired purity...??? I have my doubts... A 2" x 36" packed column may not allow the %ABV purity you are looking for, but it's worth a try...

[LearJet]

I could make it taller easy enough. got a link to plans for a liebig?

[rad14701]

I could make it taller easy enough. got a link to plans for a liebig?

Check HERE for a very simple secondary cooling liebig... Several other designs are explained here in the forums... For a VM design you would be better off with 1/2" inside 3/4"...

[cemik1]

...and did a spirit run. I made generous foreshot and head cuts. about a pint of foreshots and a whole quart of heads. Pulled the hearts until ABV started to drop and tossed the rest of the tails.

In my opinion you can not relay on ABV measuring to make perfect vodka. When ABV starts drop is too late. You should wait for temperature rise on head (or better in packing). Also second rectification is highly recommended. Personally I collect hearts up to 0.1ºC rise in the first and 0.05ºC in the second rectification (only spirit runs two or three without strip run).
I also advice carbon filtering after the second run.

[goose eye]

wheat

so im tole

[plonker]

I agree with goose eye, wheat is where the vodka taste comes from. I save up all my feints and any hearts I am looking to make into vodka.

Then boil up some wheat say 3kg, mash with some malted barley say 1kg, add to 20L water and use bread yeast. Once it has fermented, then throw in all your feints and hearts and run it off at 88%.

Most of your flavour will be from the wheat and barley, but you will get a heap of alcohol from all the added alcohol.

[Vodka_Master]

I have a 1.5"X48" column packed with SS and i get around 94-95%, using also an offset valved reflux. What kind of boiler you using? If the wattage is too high that can be a problem, you will probably have too much vapor going up and not enough reflux happening, it can be a possibility. At the begining its fine but later try to keep it under 2 drips per sec. Another thing, do you have a thermometer on top to check the temp of the vapor?

[LearJet]

Column is attached to a 10 gallon stainless steel pot. It sits on top of a propane burner. I have a digital thermometer at the top of the column. Temp was 80.2 during the hearts. Can't get it any cooler than that no matter what. Tried less heat, more heat, etc. Reflux valve is all the way open.

[Vodka_Master]

Have you tried to play around with the cooling.During my second time, i put a radiator into my cooling system ( recirculating the same water) and with the small pump i was using the water was barely moving at all, and my temps was in the 80's (around 84 C) I bought a new pump (3X more power) and that fixed all. For now im even getting better results than before (95 ABV)

[LearJet]

I have plenty of cooling. I am running a garden hose to the condensor. condensor is 16ft of 1/4" copper wound up and stuffed in about 12" of 2" pipe stuffed with scrubbers. It knocks down whatever I put to it. I have tried less cooling so the reflux would be hotter as well. I think that with my reflux return being 2/3 of the way up the column I effectively am only running 24" instead of 36" I may try closing the reflux valve and letting the collection cup just fill up until reflux starts returning through the takeoff branch (like a Nixon-Stone head I believe) and see how that works. Only problem is the collection cup is going to hold a lot of distillate.

[rad14701]

In reflux mode the reflux cup should be full all the time so that the overflow, the actual reflux, returns into the packing for re-distillation... If you don't reflux at least as much product as you take off you won't attain purity, nor will you be able to keep the column temperature stable...

[Vodka_Master]

Thats your problem there. Make your cup smaller. When reflux is actually happening, some (most) of what condenses flows back through the column cooling the vapor going up. After reaching equilibrium (after 30 mins of condensates running back down your column) your temp should be constant at the evaporation temperature of whatever has the lowest boiling point ( Acetone and then Methanol). You can then extract purely acetone and methanol, knowing that the temp on top is just too cool for there to be any significant ethanol there, since ethanol would condense back before reaching the cup. After you extracted the acetone and methanol, the temp will rise, to around 78 C. Then you know you are getting good alcohol. You should first collect some heads, witch will contain ethyl acetate mixed with ethanol, since both their boiling temperatures are close together. After the heads comes the hearts, good pure ethanol (you will probably get something around 94,95 %, depending on your reflux ratio, in other words how much you collect versus how much flows down into the column). This book i read says that for best results use 1:10 reflux ration, witch is around 1 drop per second, depending on how much you heat. I just went with temp last time i did it, just went at like 2-3 drips per second till temp rose by 0.1%, close valve and let reflux, temp goes down so reopen but at 1-2 drips per second. Then i just kept on opening and closing till my temp was struggling alot to go down, so then i opened to 3 drops per second and collected tails. I just distilled 2 batches but i am very happy with my second, some good neutral you can use for shots without having a nasty taste. For now what i learned is that it's all about temp, as long as your temp is where ethanol comes out, you are getting 95% ethanol. the higher the temp, the more bad taste.

[LearJet]

My rig has a 2" T fitting at the top of the column hooked to another 2" T. On top of this T is the condenser. On the bottom is a section of 2" pipe and a 2" cap. There are 2 holes in the bottom of the cap with needle valves in them. one is the output and the other has a copper tube leading back to the column. If I had read more before I made it I wouldn't have done it this way, but thats what I got too work with now. I suppose if I just close the reflux valve the cup would hold about a halfpint before it started to overflow out the takeoff branch. If I let it fill up and stabilize I would need to draw off at least a pint to get out the foreshots, then heads, then I would be in the hearts. It's gonig to take a long time to do a run that way but I will try it out.

[Vodka_Master]

When your stuff starts to boil, open the one leading back into the column fully, and leave the one for output close. Then wait and check if your temperature falls. If it does then thats your problem. You will most probably need to have the valve leading back into the boiler open so that most of the liquid flows back into the column. Hope this helps.

[rad14701]

With that configuration you use the two valves to attain proper reflux and purity... If you have your reflux valve closed you are taking off 100% of the product... If you open the reflux valve until you are only taking off 50% of that then you have attained 1:1 reflux ratio... With most reflux columns you can take off at 4 - 6 drips per second and still get decent reflux... If you're taking off faster than that you aren't getting enough reflux and you won't be able to maintain a constant column temperature at or near azeotrope...

See the "Building A Home Distillation Apparatus" documentation for instructions on how to best run your offset head valved reflux (VR) column... The newest revision has both the plans and operational instructions, as I recall...

[LearJet]

No. I don't think you understand. In the previous runs I had the reflux valve all the way open. Take off rate was 2-3 drops a second. This makes 88ABV. Next run I am going to close the reflux valve and let the collection cup fill up until it just over flow out the take off branch. It will take about 200ml to fill it to that level. Then after the cup fills and the column stabilizes I will open the output valve to a drop or so a second. This way instead of the reflux being introduced half way up the column like it would be if the reflux valve was open it will be returned to the very top of the column.

[rad14701]

Oh, but I do understand because I know how that VR column should be run... I have the PDF's on file and have also double-checked this page which briefly explains how to operate the column... I'm not the one asking for help, I'm the one trying to help you improve performance... I know I've read up on VR operation and know about LM operation overall, it's your understanding of the process that is in question... Let's try again...

There are two ways to improve performance... Either more reflux/less take off, or a taller packed column... Now, along with one or both of those options you may need to increase boiler heat so more vapor is making it into the condenser head so it can be proportionately separated as reflux and product...

Overflow of the collection cup is only a safety feature... Allowing overflow just means that you are working with far to much condensate in the cup to make noticeable adjustments on a timely basis... By adjusting both valves properly you should only retain a small amount of product at the bottom of the cup... One to two ounces (30ml - 60ml) should be plenty...

Overall, the VR design is one of the trickiest to calibrate... The Bokakbob dual slant plate column is easier because it only requires a single valve and the inline design makes for more rapid overall response to fine adjustments... Now, that isn't to say that you can't get used to driving a VR, it just means that there is a longer learning curve...

[LearJet]

Sorry Rad, I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't know how a valved reflux still is supposed to be run. I thought that if I let the condensate overflow instead of returning through the valve that it would effectivley increase the length of my usable column. It was my understanding that by returning the reflux 2/3's of the way up the column that I have everything above that point would be dead space. Is that an incorrect statement? The takeoff branch is a foot higher than the point the reflux return is.

[rad14701]

Sorry Rad, I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't know how a valved reflux still is supposed to be run. I thought that if I let the condensate overflow instead of returning through the valve that it would effectivley increase the length of my usable column. It was my understanding that by returning the reflux 2/3's of the way up the column that I have everything above that point would be dead space. Is that an incorrect statement? The takeoff branch is a foot higher than the point the reflux return is.

One of the many modifications to the VR design is to move the reflux port up higher in the column... The differing lines of thought on this are as follows...

Having the reflux return further down the column means that it is being returned to a warmer plate section so it will be more readily reboiled... However, the downside of this is that it becomes for more easy to throw the column out of equilibrium... Additionally, more of the already cooled reflux will be returned to the boiler which then requires more work to get it reheated for another trip up the column... All of this equates to longer and less controllable runs...

Now, having the reflux returned at the top of the packed column has several benefits which also fix the problems mentioned above... Because the reflux is returned into the top of the structured packing we get the benefit of the column more readily maintaining equilibrium throughout the entire height... More of the work of reboiling is being done within the packing which means that the boiler doesn't have to work as hard because any reflux that does make it back to the boiler is hotter, as well as containing more water and less alcohol...

So, to sum it up... If you have the return at the top you are running far more efficiently and will be better able to attain and maintain equilibrium throughout the run... Now, remember, any minor adjustments you make can potentially disrupt equilibrium momentarily, but that amount of time is reduced when the entire column height is involved...

Now that I've explained this can you see where your problem may lie...??? Moving the reflux return up as far as possible and optionally adding more packed column height will improve purity... Perhaps shortening the collection cup will be required in order to raise the reflux port... Or rebuild the column as a Bokakob dual slant plate... You have options...

[LearJet]

Yes, I feel the problem is due to the reflux being returned to low. I have all the same problems you just described. I think the only way to fix it is to change the design. You mentioned the bokakob slant plate design, I see thats what you have so I can understand if your partial to it. I was thinking of going to VM as they look to be almost foolproof to run. I can make the column taller if needed that's easy enough. What would be the pros and cons of each design, bok vs VM?

[rad14701]

I don't have a Bokakob dual slant plate column - yet... Hoping to build on in the near future...

You have most of the components to build a VM column... All you need to do is reconfigure what you have, by moving the reflux condenser to the top of the T, and add a gate valve and liebig condenser onto the take off branch... The VM column would be much easier to run for neutrals compared to your VR...

[LearJet]

That's what I was leaning towards. I think thats what I will do this weekend. I will convert it to VM and hopefully get to run it this weekend if I can find all the parts at the local hardware. I should be able to get everything I need. I will keep the 36" column for now. If I need more it's easy to add later but I can't get 2" pipe at the bigbox store, have to get it from a plumbing supply shop. I really appreciate all your help. I am tired of buying vodka...

[SaltUbar]

Hi Guys

I have started distilling in the last 12 months.

I ferment using Wino’s Plain Old Sugar Wash (see the tried and true recipes section) the only difference I now make from the original recipe is to add a vitamin B complex tablet. I use spring water from a local aquifer and make about 55 Lt of wash at a time. This takes about 14 days then I siphon to clean drum and leave to sit to clear for a week before stripping.

I have a 55 Lt copper boiler which I attach a 1m long Lyberg condenser and do stripping runs flat out with a 3kw element that delivers 2800 watts at 240 volts. I always throw out the first 100ml then collect everything until the ABV% gets down to about 15%. I end up with about 12 Lt of low wines with an average ABV% of about 35%. This normally takes about 6 hours to do.

I have made a VM reflux still which consists of a 50mm diameter x 1.5m long copper mesh packed column. I use a 15 Lt stainless steal pot with a flour water seal and another 3Kw element which I can computer control using an Edge Trigger Solid State Relay. The condenser is a combination of cold finder and double helix. The weer sits below this and I have a small Lyberg condenser attached before a needle valve to cool the distillate.

I add 5 Table spoons of Calcium Carbonate (Pot Ash, Ph lower from pool shop) to the low wines and start. I get up to temp on full power throttle back to 60% Power and leave to equalise for at least an hour. I then take off fore shots and heads very slowly. First 100ml I take of in about two hours. Then I use 200ml jars and each 200ml jar takes about an hour. I end up with about 13 - 15 jars after about 15 hours. (Patience has never been my problem) Once I am into the tails I stop even though I am still getting an ABV% of 95% out of the top of the still. (I am after quality and I don’t care about the wastage)

I then leave the jars covered with a clean cloth for two weeks before I make my cuts. This I do by doing multiple tests on each jar by extracting 10ml and adding 10ml of spring water then tasting and spitting. I sniff coffee grounds between each test (trick from the perfume trade). I start from what I judge in the middle then work out to both ends until I discern a change in either taste or smell. I make the cut and discard the upper and lower jars into a feints bottle. I normally end up with about 600-800ml 95% ABV which I dilute to 40% resulting in 1.2-1.6 Lt of very drinkable vodka.

I change one thins at a time and keep matriculas records. I keep graphs of SG during fermentation and Temp readings of run via computer sensors. (ok yes I’m a geek) But what I figure is that if you want to make something that it really good you have to work at it trying one thing at a time and testing the resulting taste in comparison with the others batches. A mate and I regularly test our current Batches against previous batches and also against commercial brand vodkas in blind taste tests. (some commercial Vodka is just rubbish)

Observations;

1. I only used turbo yeast once and even though it was fast the difference in taste in the end product was significantly worse than the Bakers Yeast I use. (I will not try turbo again)


2. There is a big improvement in distillate taste with the addition of Calcium Carbonate prior to doing the reflux run (this should not be underestimated)

Thanks to Wino and all the folks that continue to help newbee’s like me and make this site such a great resource.