Slow sugar wash, Help

[carail]

Fist post

I new at this and Ive been having trouble with my fermentation. I'm on my fifth and not very successful batch. All 5 where sugar wash. At first i thought my problem was not enough heat because I'm doing it in my basement (its 18C down there), so i got a heating pad witch has helped a bit. Then i figured i was using to much sugar, so i lowered my sugar content with no luck. So now I'm asking for help.

Here's what Ive done with the current batch. (all 5 recipes batches where different)I got the current recipe from The Compleat Distiller" except i changed Fermaid for Dap.

Recipe for demijohn 54L:

10 Kg sugar (diluted with hot water)
45 gr of DAP
added 18gr on second day and 18 more on third day
7 gr of calcium carbonate
I filled the rest with cold water splashing it to get plenty of air in there. (city water)
Pitched 3 packet of EC-1118 (5 gr each)hydrated as per packet instructions.

My starting specific gravities was 1.070
24 hour later the wash was pretty warm but the temperature came back down after about 48 hours.
Ive wrapped the demijohn basket with insulation and put a heating pad with a thermostat inside the basket. Ive set the temperature so it stays at 25C ( the temperature in basement is between 16-18C.
For the first two 3 days i couldn't take a SG reading because there where to many bubbles in the wash, they would push the hydrometer up.
After 4 days the SG was about 1.050.
After 7 days the fermentation was going really slow (1 bubble through the airlock every 5 seconds or so) SG was 1.045
So on day 8 i added 2 more packets of yeast, that didn't do much so on day 9 i added some dap (about 2 teaspoons) it started to ferment a little more.
Now its been 2 weeks and its slowing down again, my SG is 1.036.

So what am i doing wrong? Any ideas?
I have no idea what my initial PH was, ive ordered a PH kit for the next batch.

[rad14701]

First, welcome to the HD forums, carail...

Several issues could contribute to a slow ferment... It sounds as though you've addressed the temperature problem already... That pretty much leaves the size and health of the yeast colony due to nutrients, minimal initial aeration, or pH... If the wash is still fermenting just let it finish without further fussing... Once the yeast colony establishes a specific pace it's going to be difficult to speed it up... It will, however, slow down if the temperature drops... You may end up with a 3 - 4 week ferment...

If you do want to try speeding the ferment you could add a small can (6oz) of tomato paste and perhaps 1/2 tsp of epsom salt... I wouldn't go beyond that, personally...

In the future, try one of the Tried and True recipes... My Gerber and All Bran recipes have been developed to help novices ferment a successful wash with very little possibility of problems if followed without major deviation... I'd also suggest running smaller washes until you get familiar with the entire process...

Hang in there, it gets easier...

Good luck...

[carail]

Well yesterday after seing your post i added half a teaspoon of epson salt. I dident have any tomato paste.
Well now today after 24 hours is down from 1.036 to 1.026.
Thats the bigest leap yet, what does the epson salt do? Im guessing its a nutrient?
Should i add more or leave it?

[rad14701]

The DAP probably has some epsom salt in it... I'd suggest staying below ~1/4 tsp per gallon...

[Kronk]

7G of calcium carbonate into tap water seems to be a bit much to me. I could be wrong though. If this is your 5th generation, are you using any backset from your still or lees from your previous wash? If so, then your wash will start out pretty acidic and 7G of calciumm carb might be perfect. If not, then your're probably a bit too acidic. Did you check the PH before you added yeast?

[Dnderhead]

sounds like a lack of nutrients, sugar,water and DAP, some you have in there but not all for a fast ferment.
(try some of your old yeast/lees boil and use them for nutrients)
another thing is the water, any chlorine? if so leave it out (open) to air out,or add citric acid.
one more thing "open" ferments are faster as the yeast need o2 .

[Kronk]

Sorry to hijack but is the proper PH more important for the yeast or for the conversion of sugars from the starch in the grains?

[Dnderhead]

beta likes 5.--5.5 PH and 131-150f (55-66c)
alpha likes 5.3-5.7 PH and 154-162F (68-72c)
yeast can talerate 50-95f (13?-35c) best at 75f (24c)and a ph of 3.5-8 but likes best at 4.5-5.5
so if you can mash at a PH of 5.-5.5 all will be happy

[evilpsych]

Man. Every one of my sugar washes is slow too. Probably my 60F basement.. My UJSM's and allgrains are more violent, but my sugars are more like a fizzy pop losing its carbonation slowly.

[Dnderhead]

check the PH as sugar has no "no buffers" and can lower to much and to quickly,

[still crazy]

I had a slow wash problem too but put that down to stupidity.
When making a birdwatchers batch....
I used store bought "lemon juice" the kind that's 3 Tablespoons = 1 lemon (duh) I should have read on as it had preservatives in it.
I see you didn't use any lemon in your wash but when I first read slow wash I thought I would share with the members.
Sure most of you are going I knew that would happen....

[rad14701]

Man. Every one of my sugar washes is slow too. Probably my 60F basement.. My UJSM's and allgrains are more violent, but my sugars are more like a fizzy pop losing its carbonation slowly.

Sugar washes do not like cool temperatures, regardless of what yeast you are using...

Also remember that sugar washes generally have smaller CO2 bubbles than grain washes, perhaps due to a lack of starches that would cause elasticity of CO2 bubble surfaces... Toss some corn starch into a sugar wash and you'll probably get larger bubbles than without...

[Nies]

Here is some more info for ya. Yeast have a difficult time doing their stuff when the gravity of the wort is over 1.050, so as a result you need to pitch more yeast. By having a hard time I mean that they have a harder time propagating. So for instants, lets say in five gallons you need one packet of 11.5 gram of yeast to give the proper yeast count, when the worts gravity gets over 1.050 you need to pitch almost twice as much. So in a fifteen gallon batch I would pitch 6 packs of yeast. You then would not need to have quit so much nutrient as the yeast will only go through one generation instead of three as would be normal. One more note: you can never pitch enough yeast.

[Kronk]

I'm always impressed with the amount of knowledge and the willingness to share over here......

[Mud Mechanik]

Kronk, you are so right, I have been having the same problem with my sugar washes being slow, this thread answered a question that I posted just a few minutes ago. There is a lot of knowlegable friendly people on this site.

[Cherry Yidaki]

So, I have 2 5-gallon better bottles perking (slowly - 1 bubble every 5 seconds or so in the airlock). They've both had days when they stalled out, but using hints from here and tricks I learned when making fruit wines, they've come back. So, thanks to all who commented in this thread.

One thing I'm having trouble with is getting sensible hydrometer readings. I'm spinning the hydrometer to get the bubbles off when I put it in, but my readings aren't what I think they should be. For instance:

Wash #1
12/4 - 1.052 SG - 83.8F - pitched yeast starter
12/5 - 1.058 SG - 77F
12/6 - 1.056 SG - 78F
12/7 - 1.058 SG - 77F
12/8 - (gone)
12/9 - 1.052 SG - 75.7F

Wash #2
12/5 - 1.058 SG - 97F - pitched yeast
12/6 - 1.066 SG - 79.8F
12/7- 1.062 SG - 74.4F
12/8 - gone
12/9 - 1.062 SG - 75F

Temp differences? Bubbles in the wash itself? Operator ignorance?

On a positive note, I ran 6 stripping runs of my old fruit wines through my air still and caught 3200 ml of distillates. Adding 800 ml of distilled water to make 4 litters of 48% ABV, I did my first spirit run today, taking it off in 50 ml increments to start learning about cuts. Ended up with 280 ml 84% ABV Hearts and 775 ml of strong Feints (heads and tails - didn't check ABV). The Hearts are sweet and smooth with no after taste, so I'm happy.

[rad14701]

Cherry Yidaki, you should either cool your samples to the calibrated temperature of your hydrometer, usually 60F, before taking readings... Another option would be to use temperature correction tables posted here in the forums... Those SG readings don't sound right at all... My ~1.090 washes are usually done in the amount of time yours have been languishing...

[bearriver]

Did you "proof" your yeast? Maybe it got hit by a freak gamma ray...fizzled out.
(Just kidding about the radiation)

Ph has been an issue for me and sugar washes. The last 2 times, I used to much lemon juice and dropped the ph below 3.5. Yuk. Chemical nutrients didnt do me any favors either.

[MitchyBourbon]

Kronk wrote:

7G of calcium carbonate into tap water seems to be a bit much to me.

Seems a bit much to me too. In addition, magnesium is required along with calcium at a ratio greater than 2 to 1 in favor of magnesium. If reversed, too much calcium can slow down fermentation.

[bellybuster]

I notice allot of folks are just sticking their hydrometer right in the bucket of wash, you'll get much better results drawing a sample, letting it settle, degassing and temp stabilize and sampling there. Almost impossible to take a reading in a wash during fermenting. Co2 bubbles will drive your hydrometer crazy.
Not saying you can't, just a better practice.

[rcdude69]

Several issues could contribute to a slow ferment... It sounds as though you've addressed the temperature problem already... That pretty much leaves the size and health of the yeast colony due to nutrients, minimal initial aeration, or pH... If the wash is still fermenting just let it finish without further fussing... Once the yeast colony establishes a specific pace it's going to be difficult to speed it up... It will, however, slow down if the temperature drops... You may end up with a 3 - 4 week ferment...

If you do want to try speeding the ferment you could add a small can (6oz) of tomato paste and perhaps 1/2 tsp of epsom salt... I wouldn't go beyond that, personally...

Good luck...

Hello everybody. I am new to the forums and to distilling.
I too was/am having a problem with my first sugar wash. The ferment was going slow for about 4 days, so I added the tomato paste and Epson salts yesterday. The ferment really took off about 4 hours later, but seemed to slow down quite a bit (almost to its original rate) after 24 hours. Is this normal?? My guess is that the fermentation might have been close to completion. This wash is going to be used for the sacrificial run....do I need to worry about complete fermentation since I'm going to throw it away ??