Question on my proof/volume....

[bassinjason]

Newbie here. Been making Turbo/Sugar wash in 25L fermentor. Using a HC Pro Series II (reflux) from Brewhaus. Not doing a stripping run, as I'm doing one run and then using activated carbon filter. My question is this: Why am I only getting about 2 to 2 1/2 liters of distillate per run? Shouldn't it be more from 25 liters of wash? Also, it's usually around 150 proof...is that low? I thought I'd be seeing some closer to 170. Any thoughts would be welcome.

[Fastill]

Post your recipe and starting and finishing gravities, need more info to help you.

[Dnderhead]

how much sugar did you use? and was it finished fermenting?
low proof out put, can be caused by trying to run to fast, and not enough reflux.

[bassinjason]

Used the Turbo Prestige 48. 15 lbs. of sugar. My temps seem to be perfect; The temp gets up to 78 deg. C and stays there for the most part the entire time, although the distillate coming out is pretty warm (steaming into the collection bottle) even though the temp seems right. Not a high volume (takes roughly 45 mins per 1/2 gallon of distillate) output but maybe it should be dripping slower??? Again, it is a high capacity reflux still. Maybe try to back the temp down to 75 deg. celsius?????

[Usge]

Sounds like you're not getting much reflux. Need a little more info (as others have said). Did you pack the column?

As to yield...it's easy enough to figure what your "potential" alc yield is by starting with your original volume and abv of your wash and multiplying them. (ie., 21L (21,000ml) x .15 (15%) = 3.150ml (or about 3.1liters) of 100% alc potential to start with. There is only so much alc in a 21l 15% wash to start with. Given your collection rate/abv you posted...2.5 liters you got back...isn't far off the mark — although usually when collecting at faster flow-rates/lower abv, the volume goes up because you are bringing more water/etc., over with the alc. If you had distilled at 95% instead of 75%, you'd have gotten back about 3 Liters instead of 2.5L. Does that sound more like what you were looking for? As far as how much alc was in the wash you started with...I don't think you have much of a problem there. You can gain more volume, by tossing in your feints from this run, in with your next wash...which will increase the amount of total potential alc. You can also double distill. Just be careful not to let your still charge go over 40%. As to improving the abv of your wash to start with without picking up nasties....I'd loose the turbo and try one of the sugar wash recipes listed in the proven recipe forum.

I think the bigger part of the explanation or answers you might be looking for would be in the distillation process using your rig. Was the 150proof measurement the aggregate? Or just hearts? How far into tails did you collect? Was the 2.5L just hearts or total volume? Did you measure the abv of what was coming out (ie., the starting abv, etc)? The flow rate (as mentioned) sounds high, which could be part of it. Try a flow-rate of somwhere around 10-20ml per min. and see how that changes things. Did you pack the column? Do you use a "Y" valve or separate flow-rates for the cooling management water that flows through the column vs your liebig condenser? There are lots of variables here...so it's always good to keep notes on each run to try and keep track of them and what changed between runs. (they are all a little different). It's a great learning tool. You mentioned your distillate was coming out warm. Short liebigs can be a problem sometimes. You can always use a compression coupling an add your own liebig extension to the end of it. Or add your own coil/bucket. You might also try using some copper mesh (about 6 or 7 inches of it, loosely rolled and stuffed up the business end. That can help knock down any vapors. Which brings me to the last part...given your flow rate, you "could" be loosing vapor out the end. It may be overpowering your liebig and pushing some vapor through. If it is, it couldn't be much...given your numbers aren't "that" far off for what you collected. But, it could be a dangerous situation (ie., the vapor). So, another good reason to back down on the heat, and run a slower flow-rate that your liebig can keep up with a little better.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Good luck. Be safe, and let us know what you find.

[mrhooch]

You get the ethanol from fermenting the sugar, somewhere on the site is the magic number of how much ethanol you get per kg of sugar. I use 650mls of 100% per 1 kg of sugar for the theoretical yield.

At 15 lbs ~ 6.8kg ~ 4.4L of 100%. My batches contain 4 kg of sugar for theoretical yield of 2.6 L. I get 1.75L of hearts at 92%. I also get about 250ml of heads, about 500mls of "good" tails and 500 mls of crappy tails about 15 - 20%. So my practical yield is about 67% of theoretical. Applying that number to your batch, you should get 67% of 4.4L ~ 2.96L.

So you're a little low, if your distillate is warm, you might be getting a lot of vapour blowby. Usge has a lot of good ideas to fix that problem.

At 150 proof, you are not creating enough reflux. You need to increase the cooling at the top of the column, and make sure you have enough packing. You may also want to run it a bit slower, some columns can't handle the power.

Hooch.

[Whitedog]

the distillate coming out is pretty warm (steaming into the collection bottle)

Sounds like your loosin' all your alcohol.... better cool down that output, should be cool coming out!! WD

[rad14701]

I agree with Whitedog... I ran the calculator on the parent site last night and it came out something like 4 liters if taken off at 95%... Anything at a lower %ABV take off would have an even greater yield... Of course these figures don't take cuts into account...

[bassinjason]

Yeah, the column is packed with copper mesh. I just have one valve that controlls the water flow, which I use to adjust the temperature. Maybe I need to try to back off the propane heat at the bottom and bring it up slower, as well as start the water flow sooner. It's weird, because my temps are right on 78 Deg. Celsius at the top of the column, as recommended. If I were to try to keep it around 75 or 74, my flow rate theoretically would be slower and cooler, but would it be as pure as at 78 or would I be collecting more volatiles?

[Dnderhead]

check out your thermometer.

[bassinjason]

I checked it and it seems spot on. This is the still I have:

http://www.brewhaus.com/Essential-Extra ... 17C96.aspx

[mrhooch]

Well try to split the cooling so you have two valves, one for the product condensor, and one for the reflux. Yes reducing the amount of heat will give the vapours a better chance to reflux.

Hooch.

[bassinjason]

Well try to split the cooling so you have two valves, one for the product condensor, and one for the reflux. Yes reducing the amount of heat will give the vapours a better chance to reflux.

Hooch.

Not sure splitting it into two valves would work with this particular setup, but I'll take a look at it. So if I lower the heat to give the vapours a better chance to reflux, assume that's more ideal, right?

Thanks for all your help!

[Usge]

I'm familiar with the still/type, although I have not used one. I have something "similar". The therm on mine is pretty much useless because I can create whatever temp reading I want by using the "water" flow...which may or may not have any bearing to the actual temp of the vapor going through it. IF you run the water hard enough, it will cool the top of the head enough to give you a false reading. Running your cooling water that fast/hard/cool, would then mean you'd have to force the heat way up just to get it to flow. And given your flow-rate above (which is in potstill terrority), I'd say you need to spend some time trying to balance how much heat vs how much coolant your passing through to achieve the proper flowrate/results you want.

I would suggest that you start by getting a "Y" valve system for the cooling so you can control (somewhat) the water flow between what goes to the liebig vs what goes to the reflux tubes. With a short liebig like those things have, you are going to need considerably more water flow to it, than you'll probably want through the cooling tubes. Brewhaus actually sells one as a complete setup for your unit. Or you can piece something together from garden dept at Homedepot....a 2 hose garden hose connector with ball valves on each side. Use hose nipple/attachments to fit your hose/tubing diameter.
Here's the brewhaus model http://www.brewhaus.com/Water-Control-S ... 44C96.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Here's mine:

What you'll need to do is experiment with heat/cooling to find a flowrate somewhere around 10-15ml per min that gets the results you want. If you use more cooling in the head, you'll have to use more heat. If you use less heat, you'll need less cooling to get it to flow. Less cooling can also mean less reflux, etc., but it's a tradeoff between that and the heat (less heat = more reflux, more heat, faster flow, = less reflux) Keep notes about temp...but ignore it for now till you find the settings, flowrate that gives you the results you are looking for. THEN use the therm to know when you are getting there. (ie., you may end up with a different head temp reading than you think to achieve the results you want. Just make note of what works, and then use whatever it is). I'd start by lowering the heat and setting a good water flow to both liebig and reflux tubes. Then later adjust the cooling to reflux tubes only down till you start to get some drips. (while leaving the liebig water flow untouched and the heat still low). After the fores drip off, then adjust the heat up slightly, OR the reflux water down slightly till you get a about 10-15ml per min flowrate. You'll have to experiment to find what combination of heat/water flow reflux gives you the results you are looking for. Good luck! Let us know how it goes

[Dnderhead]

to add ,these stills are very dependent on water temps and flow, if it fluctuates then you wont be able to maintain a balance.
(like on a well/pump.)

[mrhooch]

God bless, another person who runs a still by what it is producing rather than the temp. I don't know how much surface area in your reflux area you have to cool with in your still, but as usge points out, you need to tweak to get where you want to be in terms of ABV by adjusting the boiler heat and the reflux flow rate. In my own humble experiences, I have had to swap out the ball valve for something with a bit better control, like a needle valve. Too coarse an adjustment for me. If you're in an area where the pressure fluctuates a great deal, then get a pressure regulator. The have hose end units for RV's that don't cost an arm and a leg.

I would suggest that once you split the cooling, measure how much volume/minute you get collect with the reflux off. That will tell you how much power you are applying to your boiler. Mine runs at 140 ml/minute. Based on the design, I don't think you want to go much higher than that. Turn on the reflux, and you should notice a drop in the output flow rate. If you want high ABV, then you need to slow down the ouput to 10- 15 mls/ minute. That would give you a reflux ratio of 10 - 15 to 1. The reflux ratio is important as that is what gives you the high ABV.

Hooch.

[Usge]

Forgot to just mention....you can always run 2 separate water sources (instead of splitting one source off with a valve). If you need more control over your water pressure for the reflux, head advice given above and find someway to regulate the pressure better. But, it doesnt' have to "Y" if you have 2 different sources of water.

[bassinjason]

Well....

I split my cooling system (one to collection column, one to the top of the colum) with control valves on each. Lowered my temp from 78 deg.c to 75 deg. celsius, and what a difference! Better output and proof near 180!

Thanks to everyone and ESPECIALLY Usge! You da man!

[Usge]

Awe...shucks (sweeping foot on the floor) Keep tinkering with it...and keep notes so you can go back and refer to it.