Heating Element Control

[Pamulli]

The rest of the circuit is just as it was for the original dimmer... The resistor goes between MT2 output of the high power triac and the input side (MT1) of the dimmers quadrac... The output side of the dimmer (MT2 of the quadrac) goes to the Gate of the high power triac...

Rad,
Based on your previous post I would think the diagram should look like the below image, but that's different than what Bob did so I'm not really sure if this is right? You also mentioned in a PM that you usually connect the outer and inner Pot connections with the Capacitor and that is also different than what Bob did and different than my diagram? If anyone can provide some guidance here, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

[rad14701]

Pamulli, while a bit dizzying, that diagram is accurate... That is exactly how my dimmer based controller circuit works and how it should be wired with replacement parts...

[crazyk78]

Hi Pamulli,

So to sum it all up in once nice consice post, can you write next to the components what is required. if you have p/n then that's fine but if we know what we need we can improvise with what we have locally here in aus because I know we can't get the 25W 75Ohm resistor.

[Bob421]

pamuli
The only difference i see is that you are using mt2 to control the power triac and I am using mt1.
Your way makes more sense to me but that is the way pIntoshines schematic, which I posted, had it so that's the way I built it.
Rad. Did you get a chance to look at it more closely. Is it correct except for the mt1 mt2 thing.

[rad14701]

pamuli
The only difference i see is that you are using mt2 to control the power triac and I am using mt1.
Your way makes more sense to me but that is the way pIntoshines schematic, which I posted, had it so that's the way I built it.
Rad. Did you get a chance to look at it more closely. Is it correct except for the mt1 mt2 thing.

With some circuits MT1 and MT2 can be swapped, but not recommended... Also remember that some triacs have different pin-outs which is why schematics can be more accurate than diagrams... How the routing of wiring between component pins is not nearly as important as making sure that the proper pins are connected... And, yes, it appears that the MT1 & MT2 are the only major difference that I have found...

[Odessit]

Circuit can be simpler if you can buy the dinistor DB3
Basic difference - resistor 25 watts is not needed.

Сircuit is in datasheet, page 3/5, diagram 2

or here



LED and D1 can be transferable wire if indication is not needed

For 220-240 volts:
VR1 - 500K Ohm
R1- 10 K Ohm 0.125watts
C1 - 0.1 mkF
Diak - DB3
Triak - BTA26-600 or any other

"Вход 220 В" - Input 220 v
"Выход 220 В" - Output 220 v

Input and output can be changed without problems.

I think, this circuit will work at 100-130 volts without the change of elements.

You can use additional resistor 2 МОhm between the overhead and middle contacts of potentiometer, if regulation will be nonlinear.

[Bob421]

pamuli
The only difference i see is that you are using mt2 to control the power triac and I am using mt1.
Your way makes more sense to me but that is the way pIntoshines schematic, which I posted, had it so that's the way I built it.
Rad. Did you get a chance to look at it more closely. Is it correct except for the mt1 mt2 thing.

With some circuits MT1 and MT2 can be swapped, but not recommended... Also remember that some triacs have different pin-outs which is why schematics can be more accurate than diagrams... How the routing of wiring between component pins is not nearly as important as making sure that the proper pins are connected... And, yes, it appears that the MT1 & MT2 are the only major difference that I have found...

Thanks rad. I thought I understood it but your previous comments had me a little scared.
Yes I should say that for the particular dimmer that pamuli and I used the pinouts were the same as the power triac. I spent quite a while looking at the dimmer and comparing circuit diagrams before determining the pinouts.
Maybe it would be simpler to just buy a chip from mouser instead of pulling one form a dimmer.
Here is one I think would work from mouser.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lit ... NNlg1YI%3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I think I am reading the specs correctly. It takes 1.5 amps to trigger it and it will handle 10 amps which should cover the power triac quite nicely.
Known pinouts and it costs 2.50 plus shipping. If you are already ordering parts then the shipping should still put the price below the cheapest dimmer.

[rad14701]

Odessit, there are literally dozens of circuits out there for controlling a triac but most folks here are looking for the simplest solution which is why we use dimmers... If absolute simple is desired, then using the two component solution of a Sutronics phase angle or burst fire controller, or United Automation PSR-25 controller, and a potentiometer, would be the way to go... I have several circuits and printed circuit boards designed, but haven't had the discretionary income to purchase the parts for assembly and testing... If I could get to that point I would make the best ones available to the membership... The slickest one I have is the dual time constant low power tirac circuit which drives a high power triac... I have one and it is much more sensitive than using a dimmer or basic diac + triac circuit... I'll try to edit this post to include a picture of it later...

[Pamulli]

Hi Pamulli,

So to sum it all up in once nice consice post, can you write next to the components what is required. if you have p/n then that's fine but if we know what we need we can improvise with what we have locally here in aus because I know we can't get the 25W 75Ohm resistor.

I have posted my parts list in previous postings, but once I get this built with all the parts and confirm it works correctly, I'll post everything again in a single post to make it easier to find.

[Pamulli]

Maybe it would be simpler to just buy a chip from mouser instead of pulling one form a dimmer.
Here is one I think would work from mouser.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lit ... NNlg1YI%3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I think I am reading the specs correctly. It takes 1.5 amps to trigger it and it will handle 10 amps which should cover the power triac quite nicely.
Known pinouts and it costs 2.50 plus shipping. If you are already ordering parts then the shipping should still put the price below the cheapest dimmer.

Bob, I have to agree with this. I personally would rather buy a chip with known specs than disassemble a dimmer and try to figure it out. Since I already have a dimmer, I'm not going to go that route, but if I were building it again that would be my preference. Of course I wouldn't have a clue what chip I'd need to buy

[snideman]

This is turning out to be really frustrating. I have tried two cleaning runs with plain water and the controller brings the water to a boil, but I can't get it to drop back down. .

Hi Pamulli,
I'm wondering now why it is mine is running so well? I'll bet you are probably running a high power element say 5000w - 5500w. What is the capacity of your boiler? 15gal sankey I figure with all your posts about welding stainless.
That could be our difference as I am only using a 2200w element in an 8gal boiler.
If this is the case you'd be cutting phase angle at 25A, compared to my 10.5A.
Would it become more sensitive at that power level? You did say your triac gets pretty hot. Mine just gets warm.
Just a couple of thoughts.

[Pamulli]

I'm wondering now why it is mine is running so well? I'll bet you are probably running a high power element say 5000w - 5500w. What is the capacity of your boiler? 15gal sankey I figure with all your posts about welding stainless.
That could be our difference as I am only using a 2200w element in an 8gal boiler.
If this is the case you'd be cutting phase angle at 25A, compared to my 10.5A.
Would it become more sensitive at that power level? You did say your triac gets pretty hot. Mine just gets warm.
Just a couple of thoughts.

Hey Snideman, that's probably the difference since I'm using a 4500W element in a 15gal keg.

[Odessit]

...most folks here are looking for the simplest solution ...

Therefore I offered more simple solution, than saw higher.

[maheel]

...most folks here are looking for the simplest solution ...

Therefore I offered more simple solution, than saw higher.

would this be ok for Aussie 240 V ? using 2200 wat element?

ssuming i run a earth to the pot as well.......

looks easy?

[Odessit]

Maheel, this circuit will be good for 240 volt. BTA41-600 operates a current up to 40 amperes - the maximum power can be up to 9500 watts at 240 v.
BTA26 - up to 25 amp, it is 6000 watts.
BTA16 - up to 16 amp, it is 3800 watts at 240 v.
You can use BTA12 (12 amp., 2880 wats) for your power 2200 watts.

Triak heats up at work, gives approximately 1,5 watts on each ampere. 10-15 watts will be allocated at the power of 2200 watt. Therefore triak should be mounted on a radiator for сooling.

Triacs ВТА series are very convenient - their mounting place is isolated from all contacts. Mounting place of triacs BTB-series connected with MT2, it is inconvenient, I do not use triaks BTB.

ssuming i run an earth to the pot as well.......

There is nо difference what wire is earth, what is line (hot) for this circuit. You can use any safe and convenient way of connection.

[maheel]

many thanks Odessit

I will head of and find the parts and give it a go in the near future

the earth is meant for saftey, "green" 3rd wire here in Oz (not sure if you understood me)

i will have a sparky / techie look it over before I fry it (fire it) up

thanks for the design

[Bob421]

This is turning out to be really frustrating. I have tried two cleaning runs with plain water and the controller brings the water to a boil, but I can't get it to drop back down. .

Hi Pamulli,
I'm wondering now why it is mine is running so well? I'll bet you are probably running a high power element say 5000w - 5500w. What is the capacity of your boiler? 15gal sankey I figure with all your posts about welding stainless.
That could be our difference as I am only using a 2200w element in an 8gal boiler.
If this is the case you'd be cutting phase angle at 25A, compared to my 10.5A.
Would it become more sensitive at that power level? You did say your triac gets pretty hot. Mine just gets warm.
Just a couple of thoughts.

I run a 5500 watt element and mine will turn off or at least very low in my 15 gal keg.
I think the additional circuitry in his dimmer is the difference.
There is a tiny little trim pot on the circuit board. Maybe that could be adjusted.

[Bob421]

It was my understanding that the potentiometer would not handle the amps to turn on the high power triac. So a low power triac was needed.

[Odessit]

It was my understanding that the potentiometer would not handle the amps to turn on the high power triac. So a low power triac was needed.

No,no.
The current through a potentiometer charges the capacitor, it does not go through gate of triak.
When the capacitor is charged to 32-36 volt, diak opens and the charge has been saved with capacitor opens gate of triak.

Therefore such circuit it is applicable for any power triak.

[Odessit]

... the earth is meant for saftey, "green" 3rd wire here in Oz

If Your home electric system has 3 wire - line (hot ?), zero and ground (earth ?), third wire is a wire of safety. Usually it have green or yellow-green color. It must be connected directly to body of Your pot and have not any contacts wis wires of control circuit or heating elements.

[rad14701]

The BTA12 is too small for our purposes as it doesn't have a margin of overhead... The smallest triac to use, whether for 120V or 240V should be in the 16A range... Most plans specify using components at close to double the operating requirement... We don't want the controller failing part way through a run...

We understand that you are trying to be helpful, Odessit, and that there is a bit of a language barrier, but there are reasons why we have over engineered some of the circuits and explained the reasoning throughout this and other electronic related topics...

The diagram that Odessit posted last is essentially a single time constant triac control circuit just like the schematics presented earlier in this topic...

[maheel]

If Your home electric system has 3 wire - line (hot ?), zero and ground (earth ?), third wire is a wire of safety. Usually it have green or yellow-green color. It must be connected directly to body of Your pot and have not any contacts wis wires of control circuit or heating elements.

yes that's what i mean Od

thanks rad, i will go 16A on the Triac

Od has just presented such a easy looking diagram that is simple to follow, i could not follow the dimmer ideas as the ones i looked at where very different

[snideman]

Here we go again.
So now in summary of the current status :
1. Bob421 = Low voltage triac (dimmer switch) controling high power triac aftermarket pot. 5500watt element - SUCCESS!
2. snideman = Low voltage triac (complete dimmer switch) 2200watt element - SUCCESS!
3. Pamulli = Low voltage triac (complete dimmer switch) 4500watt element - FAILURE!

So now it seems if you want control of elements above 2500watt then you need an aftermarket potentiometer assuming we are suppling 240VAC.

I do not think there is anyone out there with ample supplies of cash, that is the reason for this thread, however, between parts, shipping, and our precious time, and our failures, I believe that we can all come up on concensus the right way to go about this. Weed out the inefficiencies of our intellect and spend our time constructively to further our ART.

Rad, you are indispensible to the knowledge to this forum, you speak of a dual time constant contoller and that OD is speaking of a single time constant can you describe the basic differences and how each would benefit the membership? I believe it would benefit us all to know this may be a viable option.

My next project just happens to be a VM, 5500watt,15 gal sankey, 3" column, triple liebig, so it seems the simplist controller woud be the PSA25 with a simple pot. I think after all the rec-om-a-roll it might be the most hassel free, cost effective means.

[maheel]

well i will have all the parts for Od's one next week so i will test it and see

I am just waiting on the Triac so will pre-wire the rest over the weekend......

i hope it works as the cost is was around $10 aud in parts but will stretch to maybe $20 for a nice box to house it....

but for $20 it will be a bargain

[crazyk78]

Maheel, I'll be quite interested to see how it goes.

Where are you sourcing your electronic bit's and pieces from?

[Odessit]

around $10 aud in parts

Do not forget about the radiator. This is the most expensive part.

[snideman]

well i will have all the parts for Od's one next week so i will test it and see

I am just waiting on the Triac so will pre-wire the rest over the weekend......

i hope it works as the cost is was around $10 aud in parts but will stretch to maybe $20 for a nice box to house it....

but for $20 it will be a bargain

The beauty of this forum is that nobody takes "SUCCESS" as an incentive.
We will still go on our own way and reinvent the wheel dispite the pitfalls and failures of our predecessors for the new and improved, instead of the tried and true.

I imagine if there was only one way to do things around here there would be no ART.

Maheel, we's lookin' ta sees hows you makes out, brother, keeps us informed like.

[maheel]

around $10 aud in parts

Do not forget about the radiator. This is the most expensive part.

yeah but i got one in the "scrap bin"

[Pamulli]

Rad, you are indispensible to the knowledge to this forum, you speak of a dual time constant contoller and that OD is speaking of a single time constant can you describe the basic differences and how each would benefit the membership? I believe it would benefit us all to know this may be a viable option.

Dual Time constant sounds more bad ass so that's what I'm going with.

[rad14701]

Rad, you are indispensible to the knowledge to this forum, you speak of a dual time constant contoller and that OD is speaking of a single time constant can you describe the basic differences and how each would benefit the membership? I believe it would benefit us all to know this may be a viable option.

Dual Time constant sounds more bad ass so that's what I'm going with.

Dual Time Constant does give more fine grained control over the full range of potentiometer travel if all of the components are properly matched, but are more complicated to construct and work best with a printed circuit board due to the number of smaller components... I have several schematics drawn up for this circuit as well but they are on my laptop so I'll need to upload them later... Definitely not a simple build but works great... In fact I'm not sure why I'm using the dimmer instead of the DTC to drive my 40A high power triac aside from proof of concept and durability with the dimmer... I can desolder the dimmer, remove it from my case, and swap in the DTC at any time as the rest of the construction remains unchanged...