Lessons Learned from Beer Making

[DrTorque]

Even though I started distilling spirits almost three years ago, I put this in the "Novice Distillers" section because I still consider myself to be one. The more I learn, the more I realize that I need to learn more. I started this hobby with a simple plan - I would do things one step at a time, and I wouldn't continue on with something new until I was satisfied with my performance at the previous step. Unfortunately, I could never get past the first step I planned for myself - making good, clean vodka. I had few doubts about my ability to actually distill something, because I've got a ChemE degree, and one of my jobs was actually running a pilot plant distillation column. Getting started, the only thing about distilling spirits that I considered to be a challenge was when to make the cuts.

I've made some decent final products, but I've never been completely satisfied. I never made it to the point where I could say that I'd mastered vodka so that I could go on to something else. I was always shooting for a Grey Goose or better, and I never got there. I had a few batches that easily surpassed Absolut, and one that tasted exactly like Ketel One, but I was never able to get rid of a rather displeasing odor. I tried just about everything. Different yeasts, temperatures, ingredients... I even tried triple-distillation. I came to understand that it had to have been an acetate odor. I also realized that I wasn't going to get rid of it through distillation because its BP is so close to ethanol - I had to avoid creating it in the first place.

So – I took a break from distilling this year and started another hobby. Beer making. I figured that my inadequacy was in the fermenting, and that making beer would force me to do a good job with the ferment – because everything created during the ferment is drunk. There’s no distillation to correct any mistakes. I also figured that if I learned how to ferment properly, I could transfer that knowledge to making vodka.

After making just one batch of beer, I realized two of my problems. First off – my very first batch of beer was amazing. It was an all-grain, “imperial” Irish red, at almost 7%, and it was very well received by even the worst beer snobs I know. I’ve tried almost 200 different beers in the last few years, and it was easily the best beer of its type that I’ve ever had. It was good because I followed the directions and because I used quality ingredients.

Lessons learned - I used an expensive ale yeast. Baker’s yeast “is crap” according to the beer guys, because it makes so many unwanted chemicals. I also pitched the yeast at less than 75 degrees F. Pitching any hotter makes unwanted chemicals. Beer making also deals with lower alcohol percentages during the ferment, and I’m sure that helped by not stressing the yeast, too.

So – I took that little bit of new knowledge back to distilling, and I took another shot at vodka. It was mostly sugar with a few pounds of potatoes that I cooked with enzymes. It started at around 1.080, and I pitched an ale yeast at 75 degrees. Of course, 1.080 was less than what I was shooting for, because I realized too late that potatoes don’t add much sugar. Either way, I figured the low starting point helped, too. It got to about 0.095 when it was done.

Today, I ran it – about 3.5 gallons of it. I tossed the first 50 mL or so, and set the next 100 mL aside as heads. Everything smelled so clean. I collected from then on until it dropped to below 100 proof and wouldn’t ignite anymore. I was trying real hard to smell something, but nothing bad came. No sweat socks, no oily stuff. I had a little bit of a different smell about when it stopped igniting, but nothing bad. I stopped anyway.

I watered it down to about 90 proof, and I ended up with an almost-full one-liter bottle. One pass through the column, and it tastes better than anything I’ve made before. It still has a bit of an odor that I’m not completely happy with, but nothing like the odors I dealt with before. The taste – it’s almost Grey Goose.

This experiment created a lot of questions for me.

Why on earth are people in the craft distilling world pushing yield at the expense of quality? I thought the whole point of this was to show that we could make better stuff than the commercial distillers.

Why are so many using the cheapest possible ingredients?

Why are so many trying to rush the process with yeasts that convert faster and higher pitching temperatures?

It seems to me that it’s like the outlaw prohibition-era mindset is still in play in the distilling world – maximize profits at the expense of quality. I’d certainly like it if some of the experienced distillers out there could prove me wrong – and show me that you’re making great stuff with things like baker’s yeast. But – are your palates at least as sophisticated as mine? Are you making truly great stuff, or are you just believing that you are?

It sure would be nice if we could sample each other’s product…

[kiwistiller]

Completely agree with you RE the yeast choice. Bread yeast is for bread. I thought most experienced distillers aim for 1.08 or below, though, and urge others to... Who's pushing yeild over quality?

[rubber duck]

Gota agree with most of what you stated.

I don't generally try for a sg of more then 1.06, don't go chasing abv.

I have been successful with bakers yeast but it does have limitations, don't push it to hard and one can do well with it. That said yes there are better options.

As far as ingredients, ya better ingredients make a better product, to a point. At some point you get diminishing returns. I'll say this I can't tell the difference between organic whole feed corn and the dollar a pound stuff from the hippie store.

I think lower abv and temp are the things that can make a big improvement in a mash.

[SMiTH]

What yeast do you use Kiwi and RD?

[rubber duck]

I'm new to vodka so I'm still learning. For vodka I'm using a Bavarian pilsner yeast or the chico strain. For whiskey I like Irish ale yeast when I can use it.

[kiwistiller]

For neutral, EC1118, or a nice neutral ale yeast like US05 if I'm aiming very low ABV. Have had good runs with 1116 as well, but it seems fruitier, so maybe pass on that. Just got some EDV 493 for rum, very excited about that. I tried a belgian ale yeast for rum the other day, got a nice peppery note but I think ther ferment temp for the yeast might be too low for the bacteria rum needs for the floral complexity and so on that you get (wasn't much to it after airing, into the white rum jug it goes) - though this was a run without dunder or feints, so poor results were expected. For my upcoming single malt I'll use a scottish ale yeast if I can get it. I used SA-04 for a lot of UJSM, was good, clears fast as well.

And I've had good results from a turbo yeast (hear the boos from the crowd?), essencia super 6, for neutral and rum. I kept a yeast cake going from one and added nutrients a few times, worked well. Cost isn't justified though.

I'd like to experiment with lager yeast for neutral at some point in the future. On the surface it seems ideal. Slow, but ideal - do it in a big enough volume to take the time pressure off, and it could be a goer.

Some of my best results have been from a 'yeast monster' which was kept alive over many many many generations, and was originally compiled of ec1118, an unknown ale yeast, essencia super 6 and there might have been bakers in there as well as I remember. No idea what strain won out, though, but it seemed like a different beast after 30 generations or so of UJSM and Rum. Wish I'd kept some.

There are custom distilling strains from most yeast labs, but the EDV493 is the first I've got my hands on. Waiting for warmer temps before I kick it off.

[DrTorque]

Well, maybe things have changed here since I've been on.

It just always seemed to me that the majority of forum members were using baker's or distiller's yeast, had starting SG's above 1.100, and pitched rather hot. I poked around the forum last night after I posted, and there seems to be a lot of new blood here. I'd guess and say there's quite a few people that came from a beer-making background, too. That's nice to see, because there's a boatload of accumulated knowledge out there that should be shared.

Now I've got to decide what to do next. I've got to admit, I'm really leaning toward a batch of barley. The stuff smells amazing...

[rubber duck]

For a new distiller I think a warmer ferment is more appropriate, less chance of anything going wrong and less patience. Sometimes a warm ferment is appropriate, depending on what yeast strain your using and what your making. I ferment colder because I have to and it works well for me.

As for bakers yeast it needs to be used within it's limitations. Trying to push bakers yeast to 10% is not the best thing to do, ya it will work but why not do something more reasonable like 6-8%. I've had good luck with bakers yeast I just don't get to crazy with it.

Everything has it's place and there are different techniques different environments/ resources.

Oh, me and Kiwi where distillers before we turned to brewing. I think your pretty spot on with your thinking Drtorque.

[scotty]

Thanks all. I learned a lot fron this thread--it was good intelligent discussion.

[Barney Fife]

Baker's yeast can surely be terrible in beer, because as you say, you drink all the ferment. In distilling a neutral, you're going to separate the chemicals. Sure, if you make an ultra-clean ferment, it will be easier to distill a very neutral neutral, but if you learn to run your rig, you can make a neutral from even a molasses wash! So it's up to you; learn to drive your rig, or spend a bit more money and go the easy way. I'll add that learning to drive your rig has a lot of advantages that taking the easy way out doesn't, and some of them is that you'll be able to re-run heads, tails, and failed "flavored" runs, too. If you can't get rid of a tiny amount of yeast off-flavors, you'll never be able to use your heads, tails, and failed stuff.

Back to yeasts, I keep my yeast(which started out as baker's yeast) from batch to batch, and it becomes a specialty yeast over time, as the yeasts that do well in my wash(usually rums) multiply moreso than the yeasts that didn't do well(and eventually die and don't return) in the wash, and thus with time, you end up with a very specialized yeast for what you're doing. Same way the expensive ale yeasts and all were created; evolution. And if you really like a specific beer yeast, keep some of it from the trubs of your next beer, and re-use it. Indefinitely. We should only ever need to buy one packet of any one yeast. Big breweries boast of using the same yeast strains for decades, if not centuries, and that's how they do it. No magic...

[blind drunk]

Hey Barney, well put. bd

[DrTorque]

Part of my argument is that if a ferment is not done properly, it doesn't matter how well one can run a rig - certain chemicals are NEVER going to be separated with distillation. Ethyl acetate boils at 77, and ethanol boils at 78. There's also an azeotrope (or three) in play there. In other words, if you produce some acetate in your ferment - you're drinking it.

If more attention and care is not being placed on the ferment (and I see that exact problem here), the novice distiller is being forced to perform a much more difficult job with the distillation. For those of you that use baker's yeast, push your yield, and ferment at a high temperature - I can't believe that you're final product is any good.

Why not take the care to produce a great ferment, and then have an easy time with the distillation - not having to worry about horrific smells to guide the cuts? Yield and efficiency can be pushed later, after manufacture of a decent product has been mastered.

[goinbroke2]

"For those of you that use baker's yeast, push your yield, and ferment at a high temperature - I can't believe that you're final product is any good."

Well, before this turns into a "you make shit" pissing contest, how about this....
I've used ale and wine yeast as well as whisky yeast (once) but my personal preference is bread.
Why? Because it's cheap. (and I ferment at low temps)

However, the question remains then, do I have a bad pallet or low standards? Maybe. But if I do then so does a great deal of people because I've converted several "snobbish" types to preferring mine over store bought.

I make whisky not vodka so maybe that's part of the dis-connect. Maybe if I tried a neutral I would fail miserably? Don't know.

I certainly don't have the prohibition era mindset, don't try to scrimp and am very tight on my cuts. I have done all-feigns runs. Perhaps my cuts are so tight the only ethyl acetate I get is overpowered by the other good cogeners.

I don't use other yeasts because the extra expense isn't justified in any flavour differences. I double distill and add RO water for dilution between runs and when proofing. I've had variations in flavour profiles mostly due to things I can't control, wash temp, (cause it ferments in the garage) humidity/barometer/temp at time of distilling, grain consistency (I buy a 50lb bag at a time from a local farm outlet, several fields are bagged under same name etc)
In other words, before I pick flyshit out of pepper, I will try to control what I can to get the product I'm satisfied with. I've tried varying the SG and have found what I like. I've varied the pitch temp to my liking. I've found you DON'T do a run during a hurricane or when the barometer is way down.

When I get everything in a temp regulated fermenting barrel, and get a supply of consistent grain, and distill in a climate control building, then I'll start dicking around with the smaller things like yeast strain. Actually I shouldn't say "smaller things" because I agree yeast is one of the most influential flavour modifiers, however when proper cuts are done the significance between yeast strains is less aparent. If there was a meter you could read with red/yellow/green, then I'm in the green but with better yeast etc it might be a higher green. I am not in the yellow though and certainly not in the red.

One last thing, when distillers make a product like grey goose etc, they not only do their cuts but they filter with carbon, chill filter or use a molecular sieve. Even GNS has a certain "smell/taste" before filtering.
Perhaps try running your product through carbon?

[Barney Fife]

it doesn't matter how well one can run a rig - certain chemicals are NEVER going to be separated with distillation. Ethyl acetate boils at 77, and ethanol boils at 78. There's also an azeotrope (or three) in play there. In other words, if you produce some acetate in your ferment - you're drinking it.


Mmmmm, ethyl acetate.. One of its uses:

"Ethyl acetate has many uses, such as artificial fruit essences and aroma enhancers, artificial flavours for confectionery, ice cream and cakes"

While it sounds nasty, it's isn't that bad, and if you can't smell the banana-like ehtyl acetate in your heads, well..... While ethanol boils at 78c, I won't collect anything I consider "hearts" at that temp. Not even close; that's early heads right there. And this goes back to running your rig(and making cuts); there are a ton of things that boil at or near 78c, and they're part of what flavors the drink, and of course the fewer you have of these, the easier it is to make a neutral, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make a good neutral if there are some unwanted compounds present(because there will always be some, one way or another). In your first post you mention tossing the first 50ml as foreshots then setting aside the next 100ml as heads; I toss the first 250-500ml as fores, without even thinking twice about it; I don't even bother trying to separate anything from that first 250-500ml at all, as they're too many "things" in there, and I can use these fores in my workshop, so it's not "wasted".

And you'll also find that (nearly) everyone who uses baker's yeast doesn't push their ferments, either in time or ABV. Most of us recommend you shoot for a yield under 10% ABV in your wash, and if it takes a week or two, that's fine. There's a "beginning distiller's mailing list that I was following for a while, and they're all into home-brewed "turbos" and such, using chemical fertilizers and other crap, and they talk about their green ferments and such. No thanks! They're putting heavy metals and other shit into the washes to get them to ferment hard and fast, but I wouldn't drink what they produce, not even on a bet! Give me a nice, low gravity wash made with any yeast and a minimum of added nutrients(none if possible) any day, please and thank you.

So, again, you're correct that it's easier to make a good neutral with a good, clean wash, and using a good yeast will help you in this area, and good on ya for "discovering" this, but quit looking down your nose at those of us who purposely use baker's yeast, because we don't all use it because it's cheap(read my other post; all yeast are cheap, as a $2 packet should be able to last you indefinitely), but rather, we use it because for what we do, we've not found any reason not to. I make the occasional batch of beer, myself, and my yeast for that, as well as for my whiskeys, is Nottingham ale yeast, but I don't consider myself a prohibition-era cheapskate when I use baker's yeast for my rums

[rad14701]

The idea that bakers yeast is not as good as brewers or distillers yeast is pure nonsense... Bakers yeast is produced, at least by the major manufacturers, for consistent results... Results of what, you ask...??? At rapidly converting sugars to alcohol and CO2 - fermentation... If bakers weren't getting consistent results they would move on to another brand of yeast... In fact, most bakers yeast is probably far more consistent than brewers or distillers yeast for that very reason... And most large breweries and distilleries harvest and refine their own specific yeast strains, over time, so they aren't requiring manufacturers to produce nearly as much for them as for the baking industry... In fact, some bakers yeast manufacturers also supply breweries and distilleries...

I push Fleischmann's dry active bakers yeast to ~14% on a regular basis, keeping the temperature stable at ~78F, and never have stalled ferments, never have off tastes or smells, get consistently clean product (unless experimenting with take-off rates), and have never had a complaint about any spirits I have shared with others...

Bakers yeast can cause fruity undertones if the temperature is allowed to fluctuate, but this is a trait of all Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains...

So called Rapid Rise bakers yeast can, at times, cause problems... This is because the ascorbic acid that is used to kick start the Rapid Rise process is also a retardant that causes the fermentation to stop, due to toxicity, after a short period of time...

I've used expensive wine yeasts in the past but will never waste money on them again... Don't be fooled by yeast hype... The truth of the matter is that most brews made with expensive yeasts come out better simply because the brewer spends more time paying closer attention to the product being fermented, not because of the yeast itself...

Use what you want but I'll stick with higher end bakers yeasts, paying for pounds what grams of "specialty yeasts" cost...

[MaxT]

Interesting reply. The biggest lesson I learned from beer is that yeast mangement (starters) and fermentation control are what matters. Ferment too high and you throw more unwanted esters and fuesels etc. No one here seems to talk about having a stable ferment temperature..I still have the temp controlled fridges but wasn't going to use them as (being new to this) I couldn't find anybody sayng it mattered. Think I will do a side by side (and see if I can notice a difference).

[rad14701]

Interesting reply. The biggest lesson I learned from beer is that yeast mangement (starters) and fermentation control are what matters. Ferment too high and you throw more unwanted esters and fuesels etc. No one here seems to talk about having a stable ferment temperature..I still have the temp controlled fridges but wasn't going to use them as (being new to this) I couldn't find anybody sayng it mattered. Think I will do a side by side (and see if I can notice a difference).

The closet I ferment in stays virtually steady at 78F all year round... I think it makes a huge difference... Had one batch slow a bit during an extreme cold spell a couple years ago but I fixed that by leaving the closet door open...

[rubber duck]

The idea that bakers yeast is not as good as brewers or distillers yeast is pure nonsense... Bakers yeast is produced, at least by the major manufacturers, for consistent results... Results of what, you ask...??? At rapidly converting sugars to alcohol and CO2 - fermentation... If bakers weren't getting consistent results they would move on to another brand of yeast... In fact, most bakers yeast is probably far more consistent than brewers or distillers yeast for that very reason... And most large breweries and distilleries harvest and refine their own specific yeast strains, over time, so they aren't requiring manufacturers to produce nearly as much for them as for the baking industry... In fact, some bakers yeast manufacturers also supply breweries and distilleries...

I push Fleischmann's dry active bakers yeast to ~14% on a regular basis, keeping the temperature stable at ~78F, and never have stalled ferments, never have off tastes or smells, get consistently clean product (unless experimenting with take-off rates), and have never had a complaint about any spirits I have shared with others...

Bakers yeast can cause fruity undertones if the temperature is allowed to fluctuate, but this is a trait of all Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains...

So called Rapid Rise bakers yeast can, at times, cause problems... This is because the ascorbic acid that is used to kick start the Rapid Rise process is also a retardant that causes the fermentation to stop, due to toxicity, after a short period of time...

I've used expensive wine yeasts in the past but will never waste money on them again... Don't be fooled by yeast hype... The truth of the matter is that most brews made with expensive yeasts come out better simply because the brewer spends more time paying closer attention to the product being fermented, not because of the yeast itself...

Use what you want but I'll stick with higher end bakers yeasts, paying for pounds what grams of "specialty yeasts" cost...

I use bakers yeast as a base line for all my experimental batches because it's good and consistent. That said I'm not fooled by yeast hype, I pay attention to all my ferments and some of the specialty strains are worth the price.

Yeast does make a difference, most of the hyped strains such as the prestige whiskey yeast with AG are garbage. Some of the specialty beer strains are just awesome, Irish ale yeast, or the pac man strain, are good examples.

A good ferment, by a skilled distiller, using good ingredients, and exception yeast, yields an outstanding whiskey. It's a combination of things but if you haven't played with some of these exotic strains your really missing out.

[kiwistiller]

You only have to buy a specialty yeast once. For neutral, I'd be happy with bakers yeast if I didn't have anything else to hand. For all others, I now use specialty yeasts, if I didn't have any around I'd wait until I did. And I'm more likely to use 1118 than bakers for neutral, I just reuse the yeast cake, and before you know it you've got a massive yeast colony going hard.

[MaxT]

One of Australia's best micro brewers once told me that yeast was the key in beer, and as you said kiwi, if you don't have the yeast ready, don't brew!
I only use a few yeasts in my brewery (beer).
Danish lager for most lagers.
US05 for most ales
irish ale for porters and stouts
Weihenstephan for wheats

I'm sure I have a lot to learn about spirit yeasts.

[goinbroke2]

"So called Rapid Rise bakers yeast can, at times, cause problems... This is because the ascorbic acid that is used to kick start the Rapid Rise process is also a retardant that causes the fermentation to stop, due to toxicity, after a short period of time..."

Thanks Rad, didn't know that. I'll make a point to use regular and see if I can spot a difference.

[MuleKicker]

I have to agree with Dr. T. No matter how good yer rig is, there are some flavors that can not be eliminated. Starting with a good wash is the only way to ensure a perfect neutral. yes, you can get "close" with a shit wash, but not the perfect greygoose style he is looking for. Case in point, Has anyone tried distilling beer into neutral? No matter how many distillations, and how great yer cuts, you are still gonna have that hops taste. It aint goin away.

[LWTCS]

WE get new members that have been influenced by the brew shop hype. And there are some members on the brewhaus boards that seem to be kinda torqued up the "the high" yeild train of thought.

But (excluding the bakers yeast debate) experience members have always preached that lower abvs an good strict stilling is best practice. Don't ever remember anyone being advised to shoot for higher abv. Only do not exceed 12-14%.
Did I read the opening assertion correctly?

[randomdistiller]

Thank you for posting this, I'm glad to see that that brewing beer helped understand the importance of the fermentation process. There's some great podcasts to listen to about brewing beer in general that I really think could help in the distilling world. I haven't even made my first run yet though I've brewed quite a bit of beer and fermentation control is definitely of the utmost importance. Your original post got me even more excited to fire up my still (when I'm ready), the best of both worlds having an excuse to brew even more beer AND make spirit at the same time!

Have you distilled any of your imperial amber? I don't know if hops would carry over I figure they wouldn't but even using your grainbill as a wash may be interesting, a friend of mine just ran 15 22oz bottles of homebrew through his still though I think he has a reflux so I think it basically wasted it all, though if you're not doing a neutral spirit it would be interesting to see how that would taste. I love imperial ambers, some of my favorite beers ever and I've got one fermenting now as well. Lots of crystal malts in there too.

Oh, and which yeast specifically did you use for the wash you were talking about? Sorry if you already posted that I didn't see that in the thread.

[kiwistiller]

Hops and distilling don't really mix, I'm afriad. Most people that distill hopped beer generally regret it later. of course, an unhopped beer makes a whisky (more or less), so go nuts with that

[randomdistiller]

Hops and distilling don't really mix, I'm afriad. Most people that distill hopped beer generally regret it later. of course, an unhopped beer makes a whisky (more or less), so go nuts with that

Works for me, less ingredients I was excited when I learned you make wash using easily fermentables like straight sugar, when in a beer you don't want TOO much simple sugars (for the most part), no concerns about efficiency etc. Then I saw that whiskey was unhopped beer...back to efficiencies and mash designs etc

[kiwistiller]

Pretty much, but remember that a huge amount of whisky flavours come from the aging process, which is why plenty of people can sip on aged UJSM and it's variants (which are a hell of a lot easier to make than all grain, and cheaper) and think they're tasting bourbon. It's not the same, but it's close. Even though I've now got an all grain setup, I'll keep making 'sugarhead' for things like mixed drinks, and giving away to the unwashed masses. It still tastes better than a lot of commercial stuff.

[Aces High]

Hops and distilling don't really mix, I'm afriad. Most people that distill hopped beer generally regret it later. of course, an unhopped beer makes a whisky (more or less), so go nuts with that

Works for me, less ingredients I was excited when I learned you make wash using easily fermentables like straight sugar, when in a beer you don't want TOO much simple sugars (for the most part), no concerns about efficiency etc. Then I saw that whiskey was unhopped beer...back to efficiencies and mash designs etc

The easiest neutral i've found lately is just raw sugar some wheat and barley ground up (about 1kg/100L wash) and dap. I used EC-1118 for the latest one and I'll save the yeast for reuse. A 100L wash takes about 2 weeks but it was a beautifully smooth fement consistant all the way from 1060 to 990 SG. There was no big rush at the start or slowing at the end until the last day and then it finished. This is the way to make a clean neutral wash, having a nice stead fement. It already tastes neutral and has no smell and I haven't started stripping it yet.

[DrTorque]

Oh, and which yeast specifically did you use for the wash you were talking about? Sorry if you already posted that I didn't see that in the thread.

Sorry - I keep terrible notes. The brew shop guy and I go over the recipe when I buy the grains, and we decide on the yeast then.

Thanks guys - this is exactly the kind of discussion that I was hoping to spark. Unfortunately, I guess the only real way to resolve this is to send each other some samples.

BTW - that's my next run in the still. I'll use barley, or "hopless beer." This past Saturday, I did my first pumpkin beer. Holy crap that smelled great. SG 1.090. I can't wait.

[goinbroke2]

Whoa there Dr Torque, I just seen your location in your sig. Where distilling is legal is easy, but a place where WIVES DON'T NAG???



NO Sir! Don't believe it, no way, no how. Guys fart and women nag, each has their own special way of releasing gas.


[a wife that don't nag, HA, bullshit]




[they can't help but nag...you can tell their nagging because their lips are moving]