Heating Element Control

[bgrizzle]

I have been reading this thread all day... It seems to me like it goes in many different directions. I read the first 10 pages and the last 5 pages. Reading the entire thread would take the rest of the weekend! Personally, I think the thread needs to be consolidated or broken up somehow (just my opinion).

That being said, I am sick of paying $20.00 for a tank of propane and would like to go electric. Plus I work in my garage, with little ventilation, and getting rid of the open flame would make my wife feel better.

All that being said, I have a nice stripping column and another spirit column that produces 95% ABV. If I switch to electric, I would like to be able to strip and spirit run with my keg. The SS Keg is 15-16 gallons...

I have read about many different set ups on this site and thread, and I would like some opinions on what is best for me...
1. Should I go with 1 large (5500W heating element) and build a controller of some sort to go from (5500WMAX to 300-400W MIN)? OR
2. Should I have 2 heating elements (1 220v 5500W element to get up to heat AND strip), and then another smaller element (1 120V 1500W element to slowly run spirit run). I have a Variable speed router controller that I could use to control the temperature of the 120V 1500W element.

One final question:
3. Most of the elements that I have found are nickel plated or some alloy... According to all that I have read on this site SS and Copper are trusted materials. Are these other elements ok to use, or do they make hearting elements that are copper???

Thank you.

[MuleKicker]

. Should I go with 1 large (5500W heating element) and build a controller of some sort to go from (5500WMAX to 300-400W MIN)? OR

this is what i do. 5500w is plenty. Works great, heat up time on a full keg is no more than 1/2hr, 45min max. less holes in yer keg this way too. There are a few builds in the reading lounge if yer up to it. otherwise i could build ya one too. pm me if yer interested.

[MuleKicker]

Ok, How you are going about this is wrong. You are chasing temperature, and that will not work for our purposes. The temp is going to change from the start to end of run. When stillin properly you dont get to and maintain a certain temp. The wash starts to boil at X temp and that temp rises naturally as the alcohol is depleted in the wash. You want to say give it 100% power until the wash starts to boil, then back down to say 20% power until your done collecting hearts, then back up to 100% to run out the remainder of the alcohol. While you are maintaining the 20% power the temp in the wash may change 10+ degrees. (all depending on what kind of still you are running)

[nickelbacher]

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[rad14701]

I've found that If I don't back-off the cooling, the pressure increases in the still and the head slips off the pot.

All stills must always have the lid and still head mechanically fastened onto the boiler... No exceptions...!!!

As for the synthetic seal, you obviously already know that it's considered unsafe...

Scrap the synthetic seal, use flour paste in its place, and mechanically fasten the lid to the boiler... This isn't a controller issue, it's a safety issue...

[Filby]

Can anyone tell me how to gain more variance on the odesit style controller. Currently I can only go from 6amps through to 9amps and would like to be able to go a lot lower.

Cheers

Fil

[rad14701]

Can anyone tell me how to gain more variance on the odesit style controller. Currently I can only go from 6amps through to 9amps and would like to be able to go a lot lower.

Cheers

Fil

This one...???

[Filby]

Sorry this one Rad:

[rad14701]

Thanks for the clarification, Filby...

With that layout the control is all based on the resistors and potentiometer... If you study the diagram you will notice that there is a 10K Ohms resistor coming off the MT2 leg of the Triac... This serves to initially drop the power being sent from the Triac and is also part of a series/parallel resistor network... You then have a 500K potentiometer and a 1M resistor, wired in parallel with each other, which provides a variable resistance of 1 - 333K Ohms in series with the original 10K Ohms, for a total of 10K - 343K Ohms of variable resistance...

If you want more range in the circuit you need to experiment with the total amount of resistance in the circuit... One thing to remember, however, is that expanding the lower range of the controller may possibly lower the top end potential as well... You can either play with increasing the value of the 10K Ohm resistor, increasing the 1M Ohm resistor, or go to a 1M Ohm potentiometer... The simplest test would be the 10K Ohm resistor option... If you change the 1M Ohm resistor or the 500K Ohm resistor you will be changing the parallel resistance as well as the series resistance of the circuit, potentially making things more complex... You could also try jumping or removing the 1M Ohm resistor as well... Actually, if you have a jumper wire with alligator clips on each end, this would be the easiest test as it wouldn't be permanent and would also increase the range of the potentiometer... You would then end up with a series resistance network with an effective range of 10K - 510K Ohms of variable resistance...

The overall theory behind the series/parallel resistance is that more resistance yields less power and less resistance yields more power... The trick is in finding a happy balance... This is why you will sometimes see trimmer pots in circuits to allow for fine tuning... This is how I am currently testing some of the controller designs I am working on...

Hope this helps...

[Filby]

Thanks again Rad,

So the leg of the triac that is connected to the diac is the controlling leg right? So when the voltage seen on that leg is low or zero the output of the triac is full AC?

According to the spec sheet for the triac the gate trigger voltage is 3.5v and the non-trigger voltage is 0.2v. I assume 3.5v is where the triac will output no AC voltage?

Cheers

Fil

[rad14701]

Thanks again Rad,

So the leg of the triac that is connected to the diac is the controlling leg right? So when the voltage seen on that leg is low or zero the output of the triac is full AC?

According to the spec sheet for the triac the gate trigger voltage is 3.5v and the non-trigger voltage is 0.2v. I assume 3.5v is where the triac will output no AC voltage?

Cheers

Fil

The leads, when facing the front of the Triac, are MT1 (mains input), MT2 (regulated output), and Gate (controlling voltage)... MT2 supplies the voltage for the controlling circuit which is regulated by the resistor/capacitor network... In order to drop the regulated output from MT2 you need to increase resistance, which reduces controlling voltage (operative phase angle)...

The 0.2V - 3.5V is the safe operating range of the Gate... Don't sweat those numbers too much because the capacitor helps buffer any excess voltage between phase cycles... For example, it takes ~32V minimum to fire the Diac that triggers the Gate... This fact also needs to be considered with regard to the range of operation for the controller... Some circuit designs can be backed down from this voltage level while others will cease to function below the Diacs breakover voltage...

[Joshee]

hey guys i got a bit of a problem, i built the above controller (exept swapped the left and right legs in the POT, bridges the left and middle legs and took out the 1M resistor as it was liner). while i was testing the amperage of the circuit, everything was working fine until i tried to measure the voltage, although i stupidly forgot to change the plugs on the DMM from amps to volts and forgot to switch it over to volts as well, so it sparked and tripped my house fuse when i tried to test the connections on either side of the heating element wires.

so now ive turned the circuit breaker back on and tested again properly, although not the POT controll isnt doing anything, its staying at 240v (from aus) and the amps dont move either.

would anyone more electrically inclined please chime in and tell me what component i would have likely broken and need replacing? i opened up the project box and couldnt see anything wrong, although i have no idea how to test for faults.



also i have a metal enclosure, should i be seeing 240v with 1 probe touching the active wire on the element and the other probe touching the project box?

thanks
Josh

[rad14701]

Joshee, it sounds like you may have shorted the Triac causing it to remain in the On state all of the time... When Triacs fail they do so either in the On or Off state, depending on where it was when the failure occurred or how fried the internal components are...

If you want to test further, disconnecting the control circuit from the Triac so that only the MT1 and MT2 are connected should result in no output because Gate is not being used to trigger conduction On and Off... There are also test procedures listed on the Triacs datasheet that can be used, but by the sounds of your mistake the Triac is most likely shorted...

[goinbroke2]

Man, I can wire a car, I can wire a house, I know DC and AC....but that picture is gobbledegook to me!

According to the diagram, the brown wire goes from panel to heating element. The blue goes from panel to triac and then to element. The third leg of the triac is the "regulator" leg and by varying the power there, equally varies the current travelling through the variac. So, if wide open or on full, ALL the current is running through the variac? (can variacs handle 20 amps??)

Now..I see power coming up the blue (I know it's AC just follow me) to the triac. The green wire also takes some to the capacitor, then through the diac back to the third leg of the triac. At that point, what happens after that doesn't matter because the current will always go to the third leg of the triac through the capacitor and diac. Of course I'm wrong, but I don't understand how the rest of the stuff (2 resistors and potentiometer) have any effect. Unless the diac is causing a certain current flow and the potentiometer is adding to that? Basically adding to the current flow by bypassing or going around the triac? So 10 amps through the triac and the other 10 amps when wide open go through the potentiometer?

I obviously don't understand electronics.

Can someone give me the "path of power"? In other words explain the route of power?

My logic would say put the potentiometer in between the first leg (power in) and the third leg (regulator leg)
Take current and add a little to the regulator leg and the output goes up, add more and it goes higher. Maybe it's a good thing I never went on to electronic's? LOL

[Joshee]

rad your a legend! just saved me going back to the electronics store to buy all the components and redoing it.

also, is there a way to confirm my controllers not going to shock the crap out of me one day? not really sure how to test things like this, the only thing i know how to test is a 9v battery with my tongue, though this probably wouldnt be a good idea trying it on this haha.

everything is earthed to the metal project box though when i touch one probe on the active on the element and one on the metal case, i see 240v. also, if i do another test and just touch one probe on the case and the other probe on nothing. it goes to 2v. Dies this seem wierd or is it normal?

[rad14701]

@goinbroke2

What happens in Triac based phase angle circuits is the the Diac resists firing until the voltage reaches ~32V... Resistors, potentiometers, and capacitors are used to slow down how fast the Diac reaches the BreakOver voltage... This is why the theory is called Phase Angle Control because, by delaying the BreakOver triggering, we are using less of each half cycle of the AC waveform...

If we delay the BreakOver enough, by applying ample resistance, we can essentially keep the Diac from firing the Triac within the half cycle altogether... As we reduce the resistance the Diac will fire at some point within the half cycle, causing the Triac to conduct power until the end of the half cycle... This happens twice per full cycle... If we drop the resistance far enough we will end up with virtually no delay which will cause the Diac to fire the Triac almost immediately as each half cycle transitions to the opposite half cycle...

With 60 Hertz AC the current cycles 60 times and reverses 120 times per second... That gives us 120 times per second that we can limit the percentage of the current flow... With 50 Herts AC we have 100 chances to limit the percentage of current flow... If we delay the Diac from triggering the Triac for one half of each half cycle we drop the current potential to half power... Optimal Diac/Triac based phase angle controllers can operate in the 5% - 95% cycle range, or 6V - 114V for a 120V circuit, plus or minus a few percent... The best I have effectively controlled 120V is to between 3V and 118V...

This may be covered elsewhere but it's worth repeating for those who may have forgotten since the last time they read the theory...

[goinbroke2]

Rad, I see your lips moving but all I hear is.....

just kidding, excellent explanation. I was thinking in DC terms where current would not be cycling. so, the diac act as a zener diode in that it resists flow until the limit is reached at which time the current passes? Cool, what you are doing is limiting each pulse width of current in the regular ac system. Ingenious. Same way when I took my North american elctrical shit to europe everything seemed to run slower because of the 60 vs 50 hertz difference.

So, now I know HOW it works, what I have to do is get the parts...and look at the diagram a million more times.

Triac is a big relay, the rest of the crap is just a delay device to slow the big relay from coming on. And, the delay is variable.
Basically an intermittent wiper system on a car, set the delay and every so often a trigger pulse will send current to the wiper relay to cycle the wipers once.

Clear as mud..

[Lo_Kai]

I TRIED searching to see if anyone has said anything about this yet, but didn't find anything.

I was going to try and make a Triac based controller for my new still. Got the element, but was having trouble getting a controller. So I went to the thrift store to get a microwave oven to scrap for the part when I saw a hot plate for three dollars, coincidentally rated the same wattage as my element. So I bought it instead, re-wired a couple switches that weren't necessary and hooked the leads from the hot plate's element to the water heater element instead.

Works VERY well. I thought I'd share and maybe help out someone having troubles in this department, this setup might be a cheap reliable alernative for some folks. My small 1500w brought an uninsulated cornelious keg still to a roaring boil in twenty minutes on full blast.

[maheel]

ok, just looking at this PSR using 240V AUD and have a question
http://australia.rs-online.com/web/0841924.html#header" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

here is the wiring diagram


do you just run one leg of the 240 into #1 then out to the element from #2

then between # 3 & #4 you have a 250k pot wired in

mount it on a heatsink in a box and your done ?
add a fan

estimate after all bits and pieces (box, wires and power point etc) $100 aud?

that seems too easy? what am i missing

i think i am going to go buy one of these this week, but have a question

in the data sheet it talks about having a filter for "noise"

will using it without a filter eg just heat sink, PSR and pot (and 12v cooling fan) cause me problems?
will it make the TV / stereo go funny or interfere ?
or does it mean it would interfere with things that are inside the same "box" if there were any
don't want the neighbors complaining.....

many thanks

[maheel]

should i just buy this one?
has no issues with filtering.....
and nearly plug an play

http://australia.rs-online.com/web/sear ... &R=2143979" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

looks like it would drive the 2500w i want easy ?

the wiring on it confuses me a bit, anyone care to explain

[kenfyoozed]

Looking to go electirc myself. I have read this entire thread, done countless searches and now have a better understanding of all this electrical stuff. Im looking to run a 5500w element from 220( im in the states). I have looked at the plans here and have even thought about having MK build one for me. While doing my search I came across this.



http://www.newark.com/united-automation ... dp/34M8185

Manufacturer: UNITED AUTOMATION
Newark Part Number: 34M8185
Manufacturer Part No: QVR-TB-RFI RoHS Compliance : Yes

Description POWER REGULATOR
On State Current Max:25A
Supply Voltage Range:110V / 230V
Isolation voltage:2500Vrms
Supply Frequency:60Hz
Approval Bodies:CE
Contact Rating:10 A
External Depth:41mm
External Length / Height:78mm
External
RoHS Compliant: Yes

Price: $84.30


1.Could this be an off the shelf, ready to go unit?

2.Also to run 5500w elemnet , that means I will be pulling 25amps correct? Would this unit still be to small?

3. When using the pot, is there a difference between the ranges of 220 vs 110? IE wouldnt the turning dial be much finer for 220 and coarser for 110? Since the 220 would range from 0-5500w and the 110 would range from 0-1375w.

I am new to elecrtical gizmos so where am I flawed in my thinking?

[Centar]

Kenfyoozed: That unit is rated for 230VAV at 10amps: 230X10=2300 watts max

It would be great for anything under 2300 watts.....

[coups]

Maheel, your link is exactly what I've been looking for. It's taken 3 days of lunchtimes and after work reading to get this far. Thanks.

The first book that I read on this subject (distilling and electronic control) was The Compleat Distiller, which mentioned filtering when these sorts of circuits are used. I understand (to a small degree, university was *oh crap, just realised how long ago* 20 years ago) the noise these simple circuits have the potential to make. The rest of the wave has to go somewhere...

If you haven't already worked out. Line goes to your active line, with a switch between active and the terminal marked as line. The top neutral goes to you neutral feed. The bottom 2 (load and neutral) go to your heater element.

Some people would put a double throw switch between the incoming line and neutral instead of just switching the line (active).

Don't forget the ground. Connect to the controller, element and keg.

I like the look of the ZVS-16V. It does the voltage from NZ (and AU), handles 16A (26A surge) and inhibits RFI interference. Should handle my 2250W/240V element nicely.

Happy stillin
coups

[DAveCuds]

Hi all,
I hope this doesnt start another 50 page saga but i do need some help regarding element control. I have tried to understand the triac circuit but i am pretty useless when it comes to that sort of stuff.

I was wondering if anyone could post me a design (easy to follow) for 240v running a 3600w element.

Thanks!

[maheel]

http://australia.rs-online.com/web/0841924.html#header" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow



buy the pot you need from them as well.........

you will need a heatsink as well (maybe from a PC, and some heatsink paste etc)

[DAveCuds]

Thanks for the quick reply Maheel!

Actually i was looking to build the triac circuit with the dimmer switch but i get pretty confused when talking numbers. I could follow some of the designs but i know that the components will change in regards to Voltage and element power etc. If i had a components list and design im sure i could assemble it. Plus i think it will be more fun, more rewarding and cheaper

But also beggers cant be choosers

[rad14701]

DAveCuds, check out the topics in the New distiller reading Lounge... Several different controllers are discussed and explained in separate topics...

[maheel]

Thanks for the quick reply Maheel!

Actually i was looking to build the triac circuit with the dimmer switch but i get pretty confused when talking numbers. I could follow some of the designs but i know that the components will change in regards to Voltage and element power etc. If i had a components list and design im sure i could assemble it. Plus i think it will be more fun, more rewarding and cheaper

But also beggers cant be choosers

no worries, i know it is cheaper to DIY i with a triac etc, i built one as well but in the end i bought the RS one as well as it is just IMO easier.

no soldering triacs, res, caps etc etc and very little risk of it going fizzle pop.... lol

[MuleKicker]

The PSR-25 build is by far the easiest build for a beginner. It is worth noting, that the psr module will work on both 220/110v with no modifications. It says to change the pot size, but you dont have to. Just use the pot stated for the 220v build. If running on 110, the control is alot more touchy. But works fine. here is the data sheet.

20576.pdf

(81.1 KiB) Downloaded 768 times

[DAveCuds]

I guess i will just go for the Phase controller, seems to be the best option for a clueless like me

I can get a heatsink from and old computer and a POT is east to acquire. Maybe the guys at the shop can help me with the right one.

One other question. I'm moving to Colombia soon. You said this thingy can handle 110 and 240? The power in Colombia is the same as the US (i think) so i assume i can use this same unit over there. Maybe just change the POT ...correct?

Thanks for your help guys, i love this forum!