The Wee Still

[WeeStiller]

Well, you guys drool over pretty copper, so here's my still. I built it some 20 years ago but started using it again recently. The first idea to start distilling came up when I visited the Calvados region in Normandy, France. They had a very good solution for all the ugly apples I got from the apple tree in my garden. After a month of apple pie you really need a final solution for those apples. My plan developed further after a malt whisky trip to Scotland. I was facilitated by the Johnnie Walker Experience 1994 to work the night shift in the Carddhu distillery and work in the barrel house of Talisker. Very inspiring. Anyway, I decided to build the wee still. Its contents are about 7 liters of wash. It's all copper and has an upgoing Lyne arm added later because the thermometer in the top measured the heat of the copper, not the vapour, so I needed to move the thermometer out of the way of the heat source. I distill very slowly, max 82*C, so it takes 15 hours to empty the still. The quality of my apple distillate is such that after a year of storage, it is so good that a top restaurant in my neighbourhood served it on their digestives table along with expensive cognacs and whiskies. The pot of the still is a Maroccan water jug I found at a jumble. I soldered a cone on top of it. The other parts are just copper plumbing. I recently enlarged the cooling container by using an old zinc bucket, you can solder zinc fairly easily and I feel the pot still needs to look classic, so no stainless or plastic for me. I think it looks pretty, and best of all, it works. I made a parrot snout after the ones they use in the Cognac region. With the thermometer in the top and the hydrometer in the parrot snout I can control the process fairly good.
I remain a bit secretive about my personal info because owning a still is highly illegal in these parts. Smoking pot isn't, for that matter.

[still crazy]

Lovely work

Nice piece of history

Can I have it?

[condensificator]

very cool!

[rad14701]

Nice pot still, WeeStiller...

[Kentucky shinner]

That is pretty cool man... thanks for sharing that with us.

[LWTCS]

Very nice wee still.

[blanikdog]

NICE?????? I want to kiss it it's so gorgeous. I'm so jealous. I've never been tempted to steal before, but can you PM your address to me?

[WeeStiller]

Guys,
You are too nice..... you can buy nice pots in Portugal, did you know? Here's link for those who can't solder. And for all the others to drool on.
http://www.copper-alembic.com/shop/inde ... at&catId=3

[ScottishBoy]

I bet if you rubbed it, a cute drunken Jeanie would come out of it...!
( Well..I can hope...right?)

36_1_b.jpg (12.82 KiB) Viewed 2424 times

[WeeStiller]

Hey Scottish boy, I like the last bit of your pay-off. My friends always had a long list for their birthdays after they visited one of my spirit tasting sessions....

[ScottishBoy]

If you can make a spirit that tastes like Barbara Eden...I'm in!

[0re0]

pretty cool little setup.
basic, no over the top, over complicated fancy crap.
By the looks alone I;d say this is an old pre-existing still.
So my thoughts are, if it is antique have you lead tested the old soldering joints?

I dig the little parrot built onto the cooling coil bucket, now that is nice.
Helps to keep all your eggs in one basket.
No looking for this & that wondering where in the hell did I put it.
I assume the parrot can be taken on & off.

On looks alone I give it a A+

[WeeStiller]

The parrot can be removed, and the Lyne arm and descender tube as well. It's not a pre-existing still, it was a water jug with a big handle, which I took off. I am surprised about the sensitivity here about solder containing lead. When in Scotland and visiting distilleries, I asked around about the kind of solder they use. For high temp soldering of the bottoms of the stills they used brass (copper and pewter) and for low temp tubes they had no objections against using ordinary pewter/lead solder. As long as there are no massive amounts of solder inside the tubes, lead poisoning would be no problem. Only the mixture in the still is acidic and could perhaps dissolve lead (and also copper), but heck, lead is heavier than water, so it won't pass the top of the still. Anyone ever heard of lead poisoning from soldered joints in a still?

[0re0]

I am surprised about the sensitivity here about solder containing lead. When in Scotland and visiting distilleries, I asked around about the kind of solder they use. For high temp soldering of the bottoms of the stills they used brass (copper and pewter) and for low temp tubes they had no objections against using ordinary pewter/lead solder. As long as there are no massive amounts of solder inside the tubes, lead poisoning would be no problem. Only the mixture in the still is acidic and could perhaps dissolve lead (and also copper), but heck, lead is heavier than water, so it won't pass the top of the still. Anyone ever heard of lead poisoning from soldered joints in a still?

Lead Consumption Facts

Code: Select all

Most of the dysfunctions produced by the absorption of lead are due to lead's ability to mimic and inhibit the actions of calcium. In humans the lead is directly absorbed, distributed, and excreted. Once in the bloodstream lead is distributed to three main compartments: blood, soft tissue (kidney, bone marrow, liver, and brain), and mineralized tissue (bones and teeth). Lead effects children and adults in different ways. Low lead levels in children can cause the following side effects:

Nervous system and kidney damage.
Learning disabilities, attention deficit disorder, and decreased intelligence.
Speech, language, and behavior problems.
Poor muscle coordination.
Decreased muscle and bone growth.
Hearing damage.
Seizures, unconsciousness, and death
In adults high levels of lead in their systems can cause the following:
Increased chance of illness during pregnancy.
Harm to a fetus, including brain damage or death.
Fertility problems (in men and women).
High blood pressure.
Digestive problems.
Nerve disorders.
Memory and concentration problems.
Muscle and joint pain. (4)
Once lead enters the body it interferes with normal cell function and physiological processes. Some of the physiological effects of lead include harm done to the peripheral and central nervous system (PNS, CNS), blood cells, metabolism of vitamin D and calcium, and reproductive toxicity. The nervous system seems to be the most sensitive to lead poisoning.

Several factors must be looked at in order to find the harmful health effects produced by lead:

How much lead is present in the organ system?
How long has the lead been present?
Is the organ system at a time in its development when it can be affected by lead?


lead poisoning happens slowly. The lead that is taken in daily, mounts up in the tissues, especially the bones.Sometimes bone releases its lead. This may be when the person has a disease, for example osteoporosis, or sometimes during pregnancy and lactation. During pregnancy lead is transferred from the mother to the developing infant. Because lead freely crosses the placenta, the mother's blood lead amounts determine how much lead reaches the foetus.

[rad14701]

WeeStiller, here are a few things to consider regrading your lack of concern regarding lead...

We can do better than the commercial distilleries because we aren't watching the bottom line of a Profit and Loss Report or Balance Sheet...

We don't run the volumes of spirits through our equipment that commercial distilleries do so leaching is of greater concern for us...

We share our spirits with people we know, not total strangers further down the distribution chain...

We know how dangerous lead really is and make every effort to reduce our spirits being exposed to it, even without government intervention - which sounds to be lacking if your claims are accurate...

Lead enters your body, gets into the blood stream, and ends up in your brain tissue - forever... Poisoning is cumulative, over time... I've had far too much exposure already so I take extra precautions to limit further exposure...

Oreo has posted some good additional information while I took a break from writing this to have dinner...

[blanikdog]

I've posted this before and I guess Ill post it again and again and again, and (sigh) ........................... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p6850359

[WeeStiller]

Somebody here missed my point. I'm not underestimating the effects of lead poisoning.

My point and question was: how can lead from a few soldered connections enter the alcohol that runs off a still? Alcohol (and alcohol solved in water) is a (weak) base, not and acid, so how does it dissolve lead?

Claiming that professional distillers just don't care is too easy. The person who said that probably has never visited distilleries in Scotland. You will get tears in your eyes if you see how much these stillmen care for their product.

[LWTCS]

Recon puking could allow for some metals to carry over.

We've had similar dialog about aluminum also.

[0re0]

Do you think that when you sweat the joint in, that the solder does not seep past the joint.
Any contact with lead based solder is contamination.
But you seem pretty close minded about it all.
Good luck and hope ya don't hurt yourself or anyone else.

Still give an A+ on the still but ya get a D- on your practices and logics.

[WeeStiller]

Well Ore0, I kindly give you a D- for pleasantness. No need to bash me if I ask a question that you apparently can't answer.

I try it again: does anybody know HOW lead is carried over to the alcohol? And doesn't the same happen with copper and copper oxide (coppergreen)? And are these substances not hazardous, as is lead? Is there a fact based risk-analysis somewhere? All I see is hearsay.

I've found a site that sells lead tests for toys and drinking water, so perhaps I will run a test on the distillate. And if I do, perhaps I'll share the results.

Without having facts, my hunch is that you have to drink so much pot still booze that you sooner die from cardiovascular diseases of liver scirrocis than from lead poisoning. But as I said, I don't have the facts either.

Anyway, perhaps it's better to close this thread before people get heated. I must say, a very warm welcome to a site newbie. Not a still newbie, I started fermenting and distilling 18 years ago, and next to the Wee Still I also have a vodka still with heat exchanger cooler and cooled vertical column with a bunch of marbles in it that delivers neutral liquid of over 80%.

[WeeStiller]

I dug this up:

Lead contaminated moonshine: a report of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms analyzed samples.

Morgan BW, Parramore CS, Ethridge M.

Emory University Department of Emergency Medicine, USA.

Abstract

The CDC's Healthy People 2010 has set a US population lead level goal of < 25 microg/dL. A recent study of Emergency Department patients in Atlanta, GA, revealed a significant association between reported moonshine consumption and elevated blood lead. However, beyond anecdotal reports and isolated case histories, laboratory analyses confirming the presence and extent of lead contamination among moonshine samples are absent from modern scientific literature. One hundred and fifteen suspected moonshine samples seized by local law enforcement between 1995 and 2001 were voluntarily submitted to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' National Laboratory for lead analysis using flameless atomic absorption spectrophometry. Samples originated from 9 states: 5 southeastern states, Missouri, Ohio, Wisconsin and West Virginia. Lead levels ranged between 0.0 microg/dL and 53,200 microg/dL (median 44.0 microg/dL). Median percent alcohol by volume was 44.75% (range 3.85-65.80%). Thirty-three samples (28.7%) contained lead levels > 300 microg/dL, the limit designated potentially hazardous by the FDA. Percent alcohol by volume did not predict lead content. Consuming 1 L/d of moonshine contaminated with 400 microg/dL of lead would result in a blood lead level of approximately 25 microg/dL. At a high level of consumption, 25% of the samples could produce blood lead levels > or = 25 microg/dL. Moonshine production and consumption is an under-appreciated toxicologic and public health concern and is not restricted to the southeastern US.

PMID: 15080213 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

(bold sentence by me)

Bottom line: the max contents of lead in tested moonshine was 53,200 microg/dL. Drinking 1 liter per day with 400 microg/dL of lead (almost 8 times the maximum found lead concentration) would lead to a blood lead level of 25 microg/dL which is considered as the maximum safe level by the US authorities (CDC).

So you guys indeed have a point in stressing not to use solder containing lead, although I think that it's hard to get to a level of 400 microgr/dL (dL = deciliter = 0.1 liter) with the minimal amounts of lead/tin solder in joints of a still. Furthermore, persons drinking one liter of strong liquor per day will probably have more important problems to deal with than possible lead poisoning.

Shall we leave it with this? I'm convinced now.

[LWTCS]

Now that's customer service Wee.

Way to point/counter point your debate topic.

Thanks for posting that

[ScottishBoy]

Its really a matter of not tempting fate. Its so much easier to sleep knowing that you took every step you could to make your still as safe as possible. But as the study indicates, not everyone has that sort of mindset.

[0re0]

when its all said and done, if you did the soldering on this rig you would know if it's been built with lead based solder.
If you did not build it and solder it, then it would be a wise decision to do the lead testing.
That's why most of us here like to build our own rigs so we know whats in it and whats not in it.
If the web veterans tell you something , its not to discourage you. Its because they have done the research.
Now to ask an old guy to remember links on something he research 10 years ago is a little much to ask.

If one doesn't know the facts then he/she has not done enough research themselves.
And I hated to be crasp, but it seemed like you just turned your nose up at what people were telling you.
We here at homedistiller.org take out hobbies serious and we take every precaution to be safe. We want our
friends and distillers around for many, many years. If it were my still I'd def. do the lead test. The only still's I
trust is the one's that I built.

Be safe and stay thirsty!

[madmonk]

A few musings: (1) I agree with the "paranoia" about lead levels (remember, it ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you ) especially since it is so easy to avoid lead if you are doing the soldering yerself; however, I am suspicious of anything underwritten by the BATF. (2) I seem to remember from college chemistry that lead can form acetates and/or aldehydes which may carry over in the vapor. I will get out my old textbooks and see if I can confirm this. (3) If a still of unknown provenence, tested for lead levels, shows no lead contamination of the product, can a later run (after some weeks or months) possibly expose a new souce of lead in the solder by attrition of the surface of the solder layer? If so, this would render any testing practically meaningless, as one would never know at what point lead would suddenly contaminate the product due to new exposure. (4) Is it possible for yeast to uptake the lead as other organisms do, and then release a load of lead as they die off? This would mostly affect sourmash, I suppose, or any method that uses large amounts of recycled yeast as nutrient. (5) Those of us who cast our own bullets for muzzle-loaders, revolvers, etc., must also be wary of lead vapors resulting from the melting/casting process. Any thoughts? Cool still, btw!

[The Baker]

There would seem to be a case for the proposition that water which has had lead in it is dangerous to health; lead shot from duck hunting is being removed from water sources or drinking water sourced elsewhere. Shot now is not allowed to be lead, I think maybe it is steel.

[WeeStiller]

I went a bit further into the documents about confiscated moonshine that was tested and had high lead levels. There are indications that these moonshiners used car radiators as condensers, where the liquid alcohol has a lot of exposure to solder in the radiator channels. Anyway, my feeling is that if you avoid contact of liquid alcohol to lead containing solder, it won't be so bad. My serpentine cooler has no soldered connections at all, it's one continuous length of copper pipe.

I made an alteration to my wee still; I elongated the lyne arm and made a removable section in it with a crossbar at the beginning. I charged the first half of the lyne arm with glass marbles (cross bar prevents the marbles from dropping in the pot) and see: by adding more surface in the reflux part of the lyne arm, the first alcohol coming from the still went up from 70% abv to 82% abv. It also appears to stay high for a much longer time.

I ran a stripping run with a 10 liter batch of sugar/breakfast porridge mash (13% abv). No marbles in the lyne arm. Run took 7 hours. No cuts were made, 3 liter of low wines produced at 42% abv. There was a bluish/milky haze. Also some particles of copper sulphate present. I added 1.5 liter of tap water (abv now 28%) and ran a spirit run with marbles. 90 ml of foreshots were taken off, I used my nose above the parrot head to decide on the cutting moment. Then 1.5 liter of heart was produced in three half liter bottles to assess the difference in smell and taste and there was a notable difference among them. Hearts average abv is 68% in 1.5 liter. Then I went on to distill the feints until about 5% abv in the parrot. Total of foreshots and feints is about 0.7 liter at 30% abv, remarkably clear, only a little haze. The 2.25 liters of spent lees were a bit acidic and hazy, but no signs anymore of copper sulphate, probably solved while cooking. No measurable content of alcohol present in the spent lees. Spirit run of 4.5 liters in 4.5 hours.
Here's the sum up:

I have a question about the practice in (some? notably Highland Park) Scottish distilleries to always add all the foreshots and feints to the next spirit run. Doesn't that over time increase the amount of methyl and other undesirable compounds in the spirit run? Why would they do that; you distill an ever increasing quantity of undesired compounds over and over again. It doesn't seem efficient.

[Dan P.]

Cool looking still, weestill, and an interesting thread. I had wondered about the solubility of lead myself, and from fear of it had avoided cannibalizing old copperware to make my still. Concerning the use of lead solder in commercial distilleries, I would be very surprised if they did use it. I'd have thought our friends in Brussels would have put the kibosh on that pretty quickly. It may have been that your informant understood solder to come in only two types; hard and soft?

But mainly I'm replying to this thread because I had to highlight this piece of data from the reportyou posted;

"Median percent alcohol by volume was 44.75% (range 3.85-65.80%)."

3.85% moonshine? Wow! That's special!

Dan

[rtalbigr]

A contributing factor in the fall of Rome was the use of lead ware. The lead actually added a sweetness to the drinks and in their ignorance the Romans found it appealing. While reveling in their drunken orgies they were slowing poisoning themselves with all that lead. It's believed that Caligula suffered severe mental impairment due to lead poinoning.

Big R

[Bushman]

This is a very informative strand, thanks for all the research. I love this forum because everyone is preaching safety! We need to realize that it might be overkill but I would rather go to a doctor that took every precaution before operating than one that just meets minimum standards.