Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

[docdave]

Folks,

I think I'm going to buy one of those dial type thermometers from a restaurant supply company. It can be calibrated (buy a good laboratory type themometer to calibrate) and are pretty durable (made of SS) as they are designed for daily food service use. You should be able to find a good one for under 15 bucks. I hope this helps.

DocDave

[Dnderhead]

"buy a good laboratory type thermometer to calibrate" no need to buy another ,, boiling water is 212f /100c

[docdave]

Sorry Dnder,

Just an old lab rat. Sometimes I get carried away with myself. Lots of crazy lab experience. Everything had to be verified. I just want equipment that survives me being butterfingered at times. Hell, I am just listening to my potstill to 'see' what's going on. I suppose at a few tenths of a degree on the ferment temp doesn't really manner. Dnder, I gotta ask you, what do you think of those oak infusion spirals, just a gimmick or what?

DocDave

[Dnderhead]

i believe they would work,originally they were made for depleted barrels.

[sparky marky]

Howdy guys!
There is a massive amount of info in this thread iv not read yet and im sure the answer to my question is hidden away in there somewhere but for now I'll just ask it.
I'm in the uk so the only "distillers yeast" we get over here is turbo :-(
So my question is this, is there any benefit in using something like 12g of expensive ec1118 in this recipe over using 100g of cheap dried bakers yeast?

[The Baker]

Howdy guys!
There is a massive amount of info in this thread iv not read yet and im sure the answer to my question is hidden away in there somewhere but for now I'll just ask it.
I'm in the uk so the only "distillers yeast" we get over here is turbo :-(
So my question is this, is there any benefit in using something like 12g of expensive ec1118 in this recipe over using 100g of cheap dried bakers yeast?

I haven't any experience of anything but Bakers yeast for the obvious reason that it is easy to obtain and cheap -- I just grab some from our bakery.
However, just suppose we were talking about varieties of, say, apples. Would you compare twelve pounds of, say, Golden Delicious with A HUNDRED POUNDS of Jonathons?
No, you would probably use twelve pounds of one or the other in your (huge!) apple pie or whatever!
Why on earth would you use eight times the amount of one or the other? If the smaller amount is good then you actually risk some off flavours if you use many times the amount.

[sparky marky]

I haven't any experience of anything but Bakers yeast for the obvious reason that it is easy to obtain and cheap -- I just grab some from our bakery.
However, just suppose we were talking about varieties of, say, apples. Would you compare twelve pounds of, say, Golden Delicious with A HUNDRED POUNDS of Jonathons?
No, you would probably use twelve pounds of one or the other in your (huge!) apple pie or whatever!
Why on earth would you use eight times the amount of one or the other? If the smaller amount is good then you actually risk some off flavours if you use many times the amount.

I don't understand, are you saying that you think that variety of yeast used in a recipe will not effect the taste of the final product? Because I disagree. We have top fermenting yeasts, bottom fermenting yeasts, yeasts that should produce alot of fruity esters like strong ale yeast and then champagne yeasts that don't. I'm just asking for the opinion of somebody who has tried both in this recipe. Is there a difference in the final product?

Also, it is my understanding that pitching a large amount of yeast (like the recipe in post number 1 of this topic suggests) just gives the brew a quick start by reducing the lag period where the yeast is dividing/multiplying and using up dissolved oxygen, why would it produce off flavours? The amounts I gave were just "like for like". 12g of ec1118 and 100g of bakers will each cost me £2.50 where I live.

[bgrizzle]

I dont think he was saying that different yeasts will all taste the same... I think he saying, why use 10 pounds of yeast if it only takes 1 pound... And the extra 9lbs that may be unneccesary will probably cause off flavors, no matter what type of yeast you use...

That being said... Depending on the recipe, certain strains of yeast will definitely yield different notes of flavor in the final product. Atleast thats what I have found...

bgrizzle

[bgrizzle]

One more thing Sparky.... You asked if distillers yeast or bakers yeast will taste any different in THIS RECIPE...

My experience is that they both taste the same, BUT this after doing a stripping run, and then a very slow spirit run using a VM still pulling 95+% at 65degrees F.

Use whatever yeast you've got... if you are going for a really good neutral spirit, i would use a reflux still. Some here will pot still neutral washes and say they taste great. I really think it depends on your taste buds.

Why dont you try running this recipe using bakers yeast, and then another adding in some of your distillers yeast or turbo or whatever you've got... Then you can post your results back here to help others...

Again, my experience is little difference in flavor...

[The Baker]

I dont think he was saying that different yeasts will all taste the same... I think he saying, why use 10 pounds of yeast if it only takes 1 pound... And the extra 9lbs that may be unneccesary will probably cause off flavors, no matter what type of yeast you use...

That being said... Depending on the recipe, certain strains of yeast will definitely yield different notes of flavor in the final product. At least thats what I have found...

bgrizzle

Thanks, bgrizzle, right on. Even in making bread if you use an extreme amount of yeast you get a strong and unpleasant (very!) smell and taste from the yeast. It is a temptation if more bread is urgently needed to rush the process with a very large quantity of yeast but the result is not good.

[sparky marky]

That's what I intend to do with this recipe too, strip it then slowly reflux with a vm.
If the consensus is that there is no taste difference because you are stripping flavours out of there anyway then il just use bakers and save my ec1118 for some brandy or wine.

[sparky marky]

I dont think he was saying that different yeasts will all taste the same... I think he saying, why use 10 pounds of yeast if it only takes 1 pound... And the extra 9lbs that may be unneccesary will probably cause off flavors, no matter what type of yeast you use...

That being said... Depending on the recipe, certain strains of yeast will definitely yield different notes of flavor in the final product. At least thats what I have found...

bgrizzle

Thanks, bgrizzle, right on. Even in making bread if you use an extreme amount of yeast you get a strong and unpleasant (very!) smell and taste from the yeast. It is a temptation if more bread is urgently needed to rush the process with a very large quantity of yeast but the result is not good.

Iv never actually weighed a cup of yeast (not a common uk measurement) but I'm guessing it's about 130g?
That makes 100g about 3/4 of a cup? in a 30 liter wash it seems like a reasonable amount based on wineos 1/2 cup per 22.7 liters.

[The Baker]

snip

Also, it is my understanding that pitching a large amount of yeast (like the recipe in post number 1 of this topic suggests) just gives the brew a quick start by reducing the lag period where the yeast is dividing/multiplying and using up dissolved oxygen, why would it produce off flavours? The amounts I gave were just "like for like". 12g of ec1118 and 100g of bakers will each cost me £2.50 where I live.[/quote]

To clarify a bit; what you say about the larger amount of yeast giving a quick start is right, but if you use an amount of yeast FAR IN EXCESS of requirement it WILL produce off flavours. (see also my reply to bgrizzle).
So if 12 g of yeast is sufficient, and assuming probable similar potency, 100 g may be enough to produce off flavours. Certainly if I made bread with eight times the usual yeast it would stink of the stuff!

And you are not comparing like for like, are you? You are comparing PRICE FOR PRICE, which has nothing to do with QUANTITY. And sometimes nothing to do with quality either, though certainly different yeasts may be more suitable for different drinks.

[sparky marky]

To clarify a bit; what you say about the larger amount of yeast giving a quick start is right, but if you use an amount of yeast FAR IN EXCESS of requirement it WILL produce off flavours. (see also my reply to bgrizzle).
So if 12 g of yeast is sufficient, and assuming probable similar potency, 100 g may be enough to produce off flavours. Certainly if I made bread with eight times the usual yeast it would stink of the stuff!

And you are not comparing like for like, are you? You are comparing PRICE FOR PRICE, which has nothing to do with QUANTITY. And sometimes nothing to do with quality either, though certainly different yeasts may be more suitable for different drinks.

The recipe on page 1 suggests a large starter of yeast. About 3/4 cup of bakers yeast is a scaled up amount of that recipe for my scaled up volume of wash. The reason I'm not comparing that to a large starter of ec1118 is because a large starter of ec1118 will cost me SILLY money! Half a cup worth of that stuff will cost me something like £17 ($26 usd)

So somebody put me straight... My yeast options for my 30 liter version of this recipe are:
A couple of teaspoons of ec1118
A couple of teaspoons of bakers
A larger amount of bakers (about 2/3 - 3/4 cup is what the recipe calls for which im guessing is somewhere close to 100g?)

[bgrizzle]

A "starter" of EC1118 means that you would take a few liters of your sugar wash and pitch 1 packet of EC1118. Keep it in a warm place over night. This will allow your yeast to multiply. Think about it like a mini yeast incubator!

Next morning dump this into the rest of your wash!

This is why people do "starters"...

-OR-

You can simply pitch a half cup of bakers yeast into a 25 liter wash, and let it go! OR a 1/4 cup of distillers yeast.

The whole point of the starter is so you can use less yeast. It is nice when a certain strand of yeast is expensive.

I have read that most prefer distillers yeast because you can use it over and over... with bakers yeast it is hard to use more than once or twice.

[bgrizzle]

Here is how to make a starter... This is a quote from Tater.... her PM'ed this to me back in September:

"take 1 gallon of wash . use about 14 grams 1/2 oz of any yeast ya choose . stir hell outta wash to get much o2 in it as possible. Add yeast when temp is right cover and set in warm place .By next day yeast will have mutated to eat whatever wash was made from. stir this back into a well stirred wash."

[sparky marky]

Here is how to make a starter... This is a quote from Tater.... her PM'ed this to me back in September:

"take 1 gallon of wash . use about 14 grams 1/2 oz of any yeast ya choose . stir hell outta wash to get much o2 in it as possible. Add yeast when temp is right cover and set in warm place .By next day yeast will have mutated to eat whatever wash was made from. stir this back into a well stirred wash."

Sorry, I goofed with my language on that last post, I know what a "starter" is, but wineo says he sprinkles so I was probably gonna go with his method in this case.

Anyway, to stay on topic, which would yield a more neutral spirit? Should I sprinkle a coupla sachets of posh champagne yeast or should I sprinkle a larger amount of bakers like the recipe calls for?

[bgrizzle]

Wineo say he "sprinkles" distillers yeast or bakers yeast. So regardless you are changing his recipe/methodology!

I've told you everything you need to know. If you want to use EC1118, make a starter. If not use bakers or distillers yeast, and "sprinkle".

Again, why dont you try both and let us know which one works better.

Sorry, I gotta go, I have two 1 year olds I have to spoon feed.

[BrewinFool]

I just put this wash together several weeks ago to a T. Chugged away beautifully for the first couple days then stayed steady for over a week then slowed way down as expected. My OG was around 1.068 for the 5 gallon batch after topping up(probably a bit too much water). When I racked it to clear after two weeks I was only in the neighbor hood of 1.02, so either I botched the OG or this didn't finish all the way(stuck). It is completely stopped now in the carboy(taste was like really sweet sh!@#y apple wine). Should I rack back to the bucket and pitch again and if so any idea on amounts? I want to keep this as clean wash as possible.

My back up is a turbo running right now, but based on how hot and fast its running I see why they are not the way to go.

Thanks for any help for this aspiring nooby

[bgrizzle]

BrewinFool... what temperature did you keep your wash??? I Keep mine around 85F. If you keep it warm it should finish in 4-5 days max (assuming you followed the recipe to a T).

If it tastes sweet, there is still sugar in the wash. If you racked and cleared it, then there is no more yeast in the wash. You could try to pitch a tad more nutrients, like a tablespoon of tomato paste, and then throw some more yeast in there... keep it warm, and it will finish below 1.00.

Dont worry about the tomato paste imparting flavor (it won't). This exact same thing happened to me... This is how I fixed it... It works!

[BrewinFool]

Thanks for the info I hate to waste this effort. I used distillers yeast originally with nutes so maybe I will try again and just scale it back to a third and re-pitch...
I made no effort to keep this at anything more than room temp ~70F but I have two plant heating mats I can wrap the bucket in to raise the temp.

[Braz]

but I have two plant heating mats I can wrap the bucket in to raise the temp.

I use a seedling heat mat. I just set the bucket on the mat and cover the whole thing - tent like - with an old quilt.

Do you have a controller for the heat mat? I set my controller for 78F and tape the temp sensor probe to the side of the bucket with a bit of something to insulate it from the outside air.

[mfradman]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I just turned off the boiler and I wanted to share what I am doing. Below is my Wash and how I do it,
2 1/2 # white corn meal
10 # sugar
3 TB Super start brewers yeast
About 5 # of the backset from the last batch
7 gals. well water
I have a small room that I use for indoor gardening, I keep it at 75 degrees, so I do my fermenting in this room.
The still is one I built before I found this site, it is a valved reflux with a short column. about 22"
I pore the mash into the boiler at 75 degrees.
I start with reflux closed and the product wide open until I collect about 3 oz alc. then shut off it and open the reflux and run it for about a 1/2 hour before opening the product valve again.
The still runs at 88% for about a 1/2 hour, then it kicks up to about 93%
I collect a 1/2 gallon of this and another 1/2 gallon down to 65%
I collect the rest down to 20% and I run that in the next batch.
I just finished a sip or two of the 65% cut with a little water, I gotta say, its not bad for an old guy.

[BrewinFool]

but I have two plant heating mats I can wrap the bucket in to raise the temp.

I use a seedling heat mat. I just set the bucket on the mat and cover the whole thing - tent like - with an old quilt.

Do you have a controller for the heat mat? I set my controller for 78F and tape the temp sensor probe to the side of the bucket with a bit of something to insulate it from the outside air.

UPDATE:
POSW:
I put the Plain Ol back in fermenting bucket and added about 2 tsp of yeast energizer another gravity reading(pre amending) showed 1.011, so it crept down a tad from last time. Prior to transfer, I made sure I agitated the carboy first to pick up any settled yeast. I have the heating mats on around the bucket with a towel over it. If it doesn't re-start I will add additional distillers yeast etc....any thoughts on qty for a 5 gallon wash?

TURBO:
As for the turbo, it plain old stinks like sulfur and alcohol and has all but stopped bubbling(about 5 days), and from reading another thread here, it seems fairly normal under certain circumstances to smell like this and again I see why people get away from these. I racked it to a carboy today to start clearing. The entire wash is homogeneously milky in appearance and left very little sediment at the bottom of the fermenter. The alcohol content is relatively high. OG was at least 1.10 (used about 11.5 lbs of sugar) and at racking today it was down to below .99 so depending on which calculator you use its around 15-16%. while racking I added an additional 2 tsp of yeast energizer to ensure any remaining yeast aren't turning to dead yeast for nutes as I read this can help cut down the sulfur smell issue. I will likely need to use an additive to get this to clear or chill the heck out of it. I am anxious to run this wash through the new 8 gal mile high reflux to start to learn how it responds. This should be fun to have a side by side comparison.... Again I am new to this outside of laboratory conditions!

[Dnderhead]

dont add more nutrients,turbos have excess this is part of the off taste,smells.
sulphur smells come for the yeast,some produce more than others and stressing
can cause more.

[BrewinFool]

too late for the nasty turbo,

how about the POSW? added 2 tsp nutes, still not restarting. Should I add a bit more distillers yeast and if so how much?

Thanks!

[rad14701]

too late for the nasty turbo,

how about the POSW? added 2 tsp nutes, still not restarting. Should I add a bit more distillers yeast and if so how much?

Thanks!

What is the SG of the wash now...???

What is the pH of the wash...???

There has to be a reason for having issues with more than one wash recipe... Temperature, pH, and infections are the three most common reasons for slow or stalled ferments...

['SideWinder']

I've got a 80L wash going at the moment.
I was just wondering how I'd check the pH level?
My local brew store sells pH papers which range from 2.8-4.6, I thought I was looking for ~5?
What should the pH level be?

[BrewinFool]

too late for the nasty turbo,

how about the POSW? added 2 tsp nutes, still not restarting. Should I add a bit more distillers yeast and if so how much?

Thanks!

What is the SG of the wash now...???

What is the pH of the wash...???

There has to be a reason for having issues with more than one wash recipe... Temperature, pH, and infections are the three most common reasons for slow or stalled ferments...

Turbo is fine I think, I just need to clear/filter it. Not clearing on its own which is why I think they give you that clearing crap with it.

POSW SG is ~1.01 from 1.068 and still tastes very sweet. Haven't pH'd, started with near neutral(bottled water). Agitating and adding a little energizer tehn racking back to a fermenter did nothing. I would like to re-pitch at some amount just not sure what(using plain Distillers yeast). I also suspect temps on the initial ferment as it sat at ~68F. I will run the mats this time...

[rad14701]

If you use bottled water you probably need to do extra aeration to re-oxygenate it because most bottled water is pretty flat...

Also, some turbo yeast has a tendency to cause a sudden drop in pH... Some contain pH buffers and some don't... The longer a turbo wash takes to finish, the greater the chance of encountering low pH issues...