Some Observations and Questions

[ammo man]

Some questions and observations.

I made “whiskey”, (and rum) many combinations from my own recipes and tried and true recipes for a year. I never produced anything that I considered fittin’ to drink. But, oh boy, did I learn a lot by experimenting and reading the HD forums. Some of you old timers will remember that I even built a copy of new_moonshiner’s VM still.

Gave up and starting making wine. And, again, oh boy, have I learned a lot. I think the main difference between wine making and “whiskey” making is that making wine is legal, and there are a shi- load of books, a lot of them good, on the subject. The information is there. Read, learn, and use it. Not much on “whiskey” making except what you can find on HD forums.

BTW I have made some decent wine.

I see a lot of correlation between the two. Oxygen is the death of wine. It actually changes the chemical makeup of wine. Why can we not conclude that it also changes the chemical makeup of “whiskey”? I believe it was Kentucky shinner that posted some time back that he bought some Georgia Moon white dog and really liked it at the start. Then as time passed it got “bad”. Was that the same reaction to oxygen that turns wine bad?

One more observation before I quit for the night. Getting sleepy. In wine making it is important to get rid of the dead and live yeast after the wine is “made”. The yeast changes the taste. There are many ways. I never did this in my “whiskey” making. It now seems to me that when you pour your wash into the pot to distill that all yeast should be removed thus avoiding any off flavors from burned yeast. I never did this before, probably one of the reasons why I never got a good product. Would you agree that filtering, and/or some other method to remove all of the yeast, dead and alive, from the wash would improve the flavor of your end product?

Good night all. This old man (just turned 75 December 23) is ready for nap time. (Actually, I am going in there and drink some beer and think about it)

Bert

[Dnderhead]

I clear and ferment most all my grain mash .then clear again before distilling.
unlike wine oxygen can/is part of aging hard liquors.

[Liquid_Luv]

Sorry Bert, don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't see how this belongs under recipe development? Perhaps one of our esteemed Mods could move it to flavoring and aging, or off topic??? Rad?

But so long as it's here... my two cents... if you can't make a wash that is drikable, no point to stillin it.

If you have a nice smelling tasty wash... you will get spirits worth drinking... especially if you learn to make proper cuts.

Grandpa always said that if the wash smells or tastes like sh_t... the final product will be no better. Stick with making good wine and beer... when you get that part of the process down to a science... then start stillin

[rubber duck]

I'm from the other school of thought on clearing washes at least as far as most whiskey is concerned.

If it's a whiskey that's fermented on grain I don't clear it. If your running a dirty wash with a lot of yeast in it, it needs to be heated up slowly. Heating it up slowly makes a difference in the quality of your end product. I also think that running it with a lot of yeast makes for a different end product, not better or worse I just think I get more complexity from running it dirty. That said, if your going to drink it white clearing it will make a smoother white dog.

On clearing a wash it depends on what your running, what you want, how your running it, and how your going to age it.

Liquid_Luv, I've not yet made a corn mash that I would want to sit down and drink a pint of, and maybe I'm wrong but I would suspect that the guys doing rum from a stinking dudner pit wouldn't want to dink their wash either. Most of my washes aren't what I would call tasty but I do have a apple ferment going that I might just bottle.

[Liquid_Luv]

RD you bring up some very good points... however, although you, nor I, would actually sit down and drink a pint of wash [usually... depends on what the wash is, as wine is a type of wash]... somehow I doubt that any of your washes are a foul stinky pool of sorts... I know all of my washes smell very good... even Rum Dunder smells quite pleasant [or at least it should... if it doesn't, it is not good], and the only reason I don't drink any of my Rum washes made with infected dunder, is the bacteria is till very much alive... as it still is after boiling, the only reason it doesn't carry over to the final spirit is the high alcohol kills them [so does freezing btw.]FYI. When/if I wish to taste a Rum wash, I do not swallow before rinsing my mouth with 70-80% abv neutral, or post freezing it.

[sparky marky]

RD you bring up some very good points... however, although you, nor I, would actually sit down and drink a pint of wash [usually... depends on what the wash is, as wine is a type of wash]... somehow I doubt that any of your washes are a foul stinky pool of sorts... I know all of my washes smell very good... even Rum Dunder smells quite pleasant [or at least it should... if it doesn't, it is not good], and the only reason I don't drink any of my Rum washes made with infected dunder, is the bacteria is till very much alive... as it still is after boiling, the only reason it doesn't carry over to the final spirit is the high alcohol kills them [so does freezing btw.]FYI. When/if I wish to taste a Rum wash, I do not swallow before rinsing my mouth with 70-80% abv neutral, or post freezing it.

You sure about that?
Im pretty sure boiling kills EVERYTHING. Freezing on the other hand does not e.g spores.

[Liquid_Luv]

You sure about that?
Im pretty sure boiling kills EVERYTHING. Freezing on the other hand does not e.g spores.

Sparks, I am sure... if you follow any of my posts, you'd come to realize... it is with great rarity that I spout my mouth off without knowing what I am talking about.

Many strains of bacteria will die before the boiling point of water, some won't... if they can take the heat, they usually can't handle the cold.

Many strains of bacteria will die at the freezing point of water, some won't...if they can take the cold, they usually can't handle the heat.

Most will die in alcohol at 10-15% abv... some are more tolerant...

The type of bacteria that we want in our dunder pit, will not die at the temperature obtained in our boiler... but they do die in the freezer if you want proof... do the following experiment for yourself...

Pour boiling hot dunder from your boiler directly into a steralized food grade pail and cover it... within 2 weeks, it will be infected [proof that the bacteria was already present in the boiling dunder]... now take some off and place the jar in the freezer for a few days... then remove and defrost...

Try then you will have the right answer.

[ammo man]

L_L, would you be kind enough to back up your argument with some scientific research and literature?

Bert

[rad14701]

Just depends on the type of bacteria and whether is in normal or spore form... A quick Google produced these good references, amongst others...

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/exte ... oison.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/m ... e00455.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.nss.org/adastra/volume14/rothschild.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ammo man]

Thanks rad. I knew all that. I was just wondering what bacteria is in the dunder, is it necessary, should it be killed and if so, how. I am not questioning what the man wrote. All is true. I should have written "add to" instead of "back up". Sorry L_L. Just wanted more information.

I know in wine making we use Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite to kill unwanted bacteria in the wine or whatever. I thought maybe one of these could be added to the dunder (after it has cooled, of course) to kill the bacteria if it is not needed or wanted.

Bert

[rubber duck]

You sure about that?
Im pretty sure boiling kills EVERYTHING. Freezing on the other hand does not e.g spores.

Sparks, I am sure... if you follow any of my posts, you'd come to realize... it is with great rarity that I spout my mouth off without knowing what I am talking about.

Many strains of bacteria will die before the boiling point of water, some won't... if they can take the heat, they usually can't handle the cold.

Many strains of bacteria will die at the freezing point of water, some won't...if they can take the cold, they usually can't handle the heat.

Most will die in alcohol at 10-15% abv... some are more tolerant...

The type of bacteria that we want in our dunder pit, will not die at the temperature obtained in our boiler... but they do die in the freezer if you want proof... do the following experiment for yourself...

Pour boiling hot dunder from your boiler directly into a steralized food grade pail and cover it... within 2 weeks, it will be infected [proof that the bacteria was already present in the boiling dunder]... now take some off and place the jar in the freezer for a few days... then remove and defrost...

Try then you will have the right answer.

Are you sure it's not a infected bucket or a airborne contaminate. Seems to me if the bacteria is present in the dunder it was likely present in the molasses also. If the bacteria isn't killed by heat then I should have about 10 gallons of molasses stout sitting in the fridge that tastes like puke.

Furthermore assuming there is a bacteria in rum dunder that isn't killed by heat it should have a pretty good head start on any ferment we do. If there is bacteria that survives the boil why then don't we have a rotten mess a few days after the yeast pitch?

Plastic fementors will harbor will harbor bacteria such as lacto and it's nearly impossible to adequately sanitize. That's why I have a separate set of plastic tools and fermentors for my beer and whiskey.

Edit. spelling error

[Liquid_Luv]

Seems I've sparked up some controversy again... my bad. Sorry I've been off celebrating a wee too much, but let me try to explain a few things as best I can...

Are you sure it's not a infected bucket or a airborne contaminate. Seems to me if the bacteria is present in the dunder it was likely present in the molasses also. If the bacteria isn't killed by heat then I should have about 10 gallons of molasses stout sitting in the fridge that tastes like puke.

Furthermore assuming there is a bacteria in rum dunder that isn't killed by heat it should have a pretty good head start on any ferment we do. If there is bacteria that survives the boil why then don't we have a rotten mess a few days after the yeast pitch?

Plastic fementors will harbor will harbor bacteria such as lacto and it's nearly impossible to adequately sanitize. That's why I have a separate set of plastic tools and fermentors for my beer and whiskey.

RD, you are constantly bringing up some good points and valid quetions, so let me try and address them...

This here Quoted from “Smudges Recipe” on the parent site…

“Molasses - contains sugars but is mostly included for its vitamin and mineral content. The fermentation rate halved when I didn't include it. Molasses is a waste product of sugar refining and can be assumed to contain bacteria. Do not dilute molasses if you do not intend to add yeast immediately as the bacteria will get established.”

Well I don't like to assume anything soooo... Googling Molasses, you can confirm, as per “Product Data Sheet” and “Material Safety Data Sheet” documents filed by two well known producers of fancy molasses in North America [ Grandma’s TM and Crosby’s TM] with local FDA, the product contains small amounts [approx. 500 of each per gram] of natural Yeasts and Bacterial spores and is recommended to be kept cool and in a “container vented, to allow release of co2 produced by natural yeast in product.”

So, yes, it appears the bacteria is actually in the molasses before we even start...

Now before I go any further, allow me to share the following facts... perhaps as a disclaimer

#1... I am not a scientist or chemist, although I am somewhat well versed in these areas… I am quite literate and have a voracious appetite for knowledge.
#2... I have made my living in business, not with alcohol.
#3... I have family in the business of making alcohol [legally]; I am a hobbyist in that endeavour as are others here on HD… What I report in my posts are based on many years of personal experience making mostly Vodka [3+ decades], in the case of Rum and Rum related ingredients, only a mere 3 years and less than 200 ferments… just over 21 months playing around with dunder pits, infected and all… so although that makes me no expert, I do have a decent level of credibility based on first hand experience.

I am only trying to share with others that which I believe to be fact based on these experiences… when proven wrong, I am the first to admit the error of my ways, and thank those who have provided the edification.

So, now to answer the next question...

As far as molasses spontaneously being attacked by these yeasts and bacteria in your fridge goes… let me ask you a few questions…

Why can’t we ferment a Wash with an SG higher than 1.125 [think we all know that one]? What is the SG of undiluted Molasses [I'll tell ya, it's 1.402]?

Why does Blue Cheese have nice clusters of blue in it and not turn into a stinky mess as you put it? …Or any of the other cheeses that are all produced by bacterial culture?

As I mentioned I am not a scientist or chemist… we could included microbiologist to that list as well… so I can’t answer all those good questions you have asked… perhaps a couple of Google searches and a whole lot of reading can… let us know when you find out.

RD, I agree 110% with you as far as sterilizing plastic fermenters goes... they are a bitch!!! Knowing that, I went to fairly extreme lengths to do a good job in that department... I sterilized my new food grade 5 gallon dunder pit using 500 grams of pool chlorine in very hot water… it thoroughly bleached the oak wood stir stick white in the time it took to dissolve all the chlorine into the hot water… I left this solution in for 15 minutes prior to dumping it into my pool as a shock treatment to destroy some algae that had started [it did the job ]... the pail was then rinsed with distilled water and left to dry inverted on a stainless steel counter which had been wiped with javel water just prior… the vented [1/8" hole, don't think much airborne bacteria will find it, maybe I'm wrong?] glass top that fits airtight to the container goes through a sterilization rinse in the dishwasher with other glass containers used for my hobby… then in goes the fresh dunder, on goes the cover, within a few days the mould starts to cover the entire surface… it always smells nice… never like some of the horror stories I’ve heard from others… ???

That's all I got... flame away...

Cheers!

[rubber duck]

I didn't think we were having a flame war, I thought we were having a reasonable discussion that turned into whether or not boiling kills bacteria.

What do you mean that's all you got? First you say that boiling doesn't kill bacteria, and then you follow it up with, "Why can’t we ferment a Wash with an SG higher than 1.125 [think we all know that one]?". Please tell me why I can't ferment a wash with a sg higher then 1.125 because I don't know that one. The fact is there are beers available that go well past the 20% Abv mark, go look up Utopia by Samuel Adams, that means the gravity was well above 1.125.

Sterilizing your plastic dunder pit with 500 grams of pool chlorine may not have been good enough if it was once used as a fermentor and was exposed to bacteria from a previous ferment. This is why home brewers that make lambic beer have plastic equipment that they dedicate to lambics only.

So are you saying that boiling doesn't kill bacteria, or that boiling doesn't kill bacteria present in a rum dunder pit?

[sparky marky]

sorry liquid, didnt mean to offend ya. i have read alot of your posts, i have just started doing rum and so have done alot of reading recently. my first batch was a huge success (12 guys drank over 5 liters of the stuff on thursday!!) because of tips i picked up from the internet rum gods like you are Myles.

i think the confusion is coming from the difference between bacteria and spores.

Boiling WILL kill all bacteria, funghi and viruses. In fact 75 degrees celcius is enough to kill most nasties. However some of these organisms can produce things called spores which are tiny inactive "eggs" or "seeds". Many spores will also be deactivated and destroyed by boiling but some varieties have a very high resistance to conditions like extreme temperatures and can survive for years until conditions are right for them to activate and multiply. I would guess that this is where liquids reinfection of boiled dunder is coming from.

I didnt think we would find this kind of stuff in the house but then i dont usually leave a bowl of food lying around for weeks waiting and hoping for it to get all nasty and infected

[Liquid_Luv]

Duck, we’re not having a flame war… if we were you’d know it.

Please don’t get me going… you happen to use the name of a company started by Lorenzo [a family friend] and a couple of his buddies long ago in Boston, as an example of really strong beer, brewed way beyond what 1.125 can yield??? Last time I checked, 1.125 = 19% abv, not too shabby... you can verify that on the parent site's calculators under sugar wash ...BBC's Utopia is brewed to 21-24%, not really way beyond in my books... there are beers at 31% but if you think they haven’t been fortified, I got some prime land to sell you in Florida… real cheap.

Molasses has an SG of 1.40 which equates to 63% alcohol by volume if it could be fermented from that SG and then not be killed by the alcohol level… as far as I know there isn’t a strain of yeast on this planet that could ferment that… unless of course you know better??? Please tell me where I can get some… it’ll put me back in the good graces of my family, they’ll make billions more in annual profits with that kind of yield… please tell us???

Boiling kills most bacteria… almost all bacteria… but not all… further, I don’t boil my spirits beyond 90 degrees Celsius… that’s well below the boiling point of water.

At risk of repeating myself yet again… my Dunder pit was made from a NEW food grade plastic pail which I then sterilized as discussed… the Chlorine soup then killed all the algae in a 66,000 litre swimming pool… I doubt you clean your equipment as well as I have mine… you done yet?

I am really not in the mood to whine and bitch over minutia… grasp the bigger picture instead of nit picking all the little insignificant details.

Enjoy the New Year!

[Liquid_Luv]

sorry liquid, didnt mean to offend ya. i have read alot of your posts, i have just started doing rum and so have done alot of reading recently. my first batch was a huge success (12 guys drank over 5 liters of the stuff on thursday!!) because of tips i picked up from the internet rum gods like you are Myles.

i think the confusion is coming from the difference between bacteria and spores.

No offense taken whatsoever...

I am glad to hear that your first batch was a success... here's to many more... cheers!

Sparks, does it really matter where it comes from? ... only that it is, and knowing what to do with it is the only thing that matters... too many folks tend to lose track of what is important.

It's black, no white, no... who the F_K cares!!! Does it work or not? Now there's an intelligent question...

Words to live by...

Happy New Year!

.