Heating Element Control

[maheel]

these might be of interest to the UK based crew

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ci0013 ... -4000w.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[MuleKicker]

I can get a heatsink from and old computer and a POT is east to acquire

Make sure the heat sink is big enough. And the specs on the pot are correct.

[guittarmaster]

Final Schematic used attached (again - apologies for the redundancy). I used a 50 amp dryer plug and tail, spliced in some 8/3 guage outdoor wire to the project box, then a female generate nema plug, male plug attached to the element. Worked like a charm on the first try.

Currently researching the proper cleaning runs, just running water now. This weekend is going to be fun.

Edit: Uploaded wrong schematic.

I had a question about this project. I have the components from mouser and am planning on getting the rest of the stuff i need to start this weekend. I just wondered what gauge of wire I should use inside the box. Should i use that 8/3 wire inside or something else. Also, is there a preference on the type of box to use, like metal vs plastic boxes. Does the size of the box matter or any box that everything fits inside. Lastly, should I use some sort of rubber wire seal or will electrical tape work to protect the wires after wiring them together.

[Bob421]

Final Schematic used attached (again - apologies for the redundancy). I used a 50 amp dryer plug and tail, spliced in some 8/3 guage outdoor wire to the project box, then a female generate nema plug, male plug attached to the element. Worked like a charm on the first try.

Currently researching the proper cleaning runs, just running water now. This weekend is going to be fun.

Edit: Uploaded wrong schematic.

I had a question about this project. I have the components from mouser and am planning on getting the rest of the stuff i need to start this weekend. I just wondered what gauge of wire I should use inside the box. Should i use that 8/3 wire inside or something else. Also, is there a preference on the type of box to use, like metal vs plastic boxes. Does the size of the box matter or any box that everything fits inside. Lastly, should I use some sort of rubber wire seal or will electrical tape work to protect the wires after wiring them together.

I cant tell which you are building but I think it might be the triac one and not the PSR one. For holding wires together proper sized wire nuts or solder and heat shrink work well. I used somewhat smaller guage wire for the pot, resistor, and capacitor since they aren't handling that much current.

[rad14701]

I cant tell which you are building but I think it might be the triac one and not the PSR one. For holding wires together proper sized wire nuts or solder and heat shrink work well. I used somewhat smaller guage wire for the pot, resistor, and capacitor since they aren't handling that much current.

I'm fairly certain that this post is the one being referred to...

[guittarmaster]

yup, it's that one Rad. Wire nuts? rock on.. i wasn't sure as the leads off the resister and capacitor are so much thinner. What gauge would you recommend then, 12/2?

should i go metal or plastic for the housing?

thanks guys.

[Bob421]

yup, it's that one Rad. Wire nuts? rock on.. i wasn't sure as the leads off the resister and capacitor are so much thinner. What gauge would you recommend then, 12/2?

should i go metal or plastic for the housing?

thanks guys.

I think I used 14 guage or thereabouts. I would use metal. That triac puts out gobs of heat. I mated it to the meal housing and aluminum tube in the outside and still needed a fan blowing on it to keep it cool.

[guittarmaster]

These should be my last questions on this topic before i assemble everything. I have all the parts placed out here and how I was going to wire them up. (sorry for the poor image quality)

wire skimatic

wire_skimatic.jpeg (5.55 KiB) Viewed 6041 times

At two places I would use a nut and splice 3 waires together.

The 3rd would be 4 wires nutted together, with two of the wires going to the two stems of the potentiometer. (Q) Is my understanding on this part right?

Here is the box I'm gonna stuff it in. As it turns out the heat sink from a pentium 2 processor is an almost perfect fit for the side of the box.

heat-sink and box

box+heatsink.jpeg (7.11 KiB) Viewed 6041 times

(Q) Should i cut the side off the box and attach the heat-sink with L brackets and nut and bolts or would superglueing it to the side work?
(Q) To attach the triac should I superglue it or bolt it via the small hole at the top?

EDIT: I also got 10AWG for inside the box. everything else as per the before mentioned post on page 47 of this thread.

Thanks for the help guys. I'm gonna get it all put together thursday and hope to make it another tutorial for the forums.

[maheel]

please confirm that is a "isolated" triac, otherwise the HSink could be "live"

bolt it on and best to use a bit of thermal paste like for a PC chipset (between the Triac and Hsink)

i would not use glue anywhere on the major parts.....

earth that box and hsink as well if it's metal

[guittarmaster]

Triac
Mouser #: 576-Q6040J7
Desc.: Thyristors - Diacs, Sidacs, SCRs & Triacs 600V 40A

Don't know if that helps. There is nothing attached to the triac if that's what you mean by isolated. Thermal paste... can do. What do you mean by live... with a fan?

[MuleKicker]

(Q) Should i cut the side off the box and attach the heat-sink with L brackets and nut and bolts or would superglueing it to the side work?
(Q) To attach the triac should I superglue it or bolt it via the small hole at the top?

Bolt it. Superglue will act as an insulator and you will not get good heat transfer between the triac and the heatsink, causing it to burn out prematurely. You may want to use a bit of dielectric grease between the triac and heatsink to aid in heat transfer

[maheel]

Triac
Mouser #: 576-Q6040J7
Desc.: Thyristors - Diacs, Sidacs, SCRs & Triacs 600V 40A

Don't know if that helps. There is nothing attached to the triac if that's what you mean by isolated. Thermal paste... can do. What do you mean by live... with a fan?

based on the data sheet this is an isolated (or insualted at the screw hole) triac (page 4) non isolated means that when you turn on the power the heatsink is also "live" with power and can KILL you....
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_ ... rTriac.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Ben Stillin]

Ok I just found 4 Q5040 Triacs in Fastpak package cheap. (oddball voltage (500) in between the 4040 and 6040 but otherwise the same)

I want to control 11000W worth of elements on a 40 gallon boiler so I am going to try to parallel the triacs. It's not the best practice but it should work if they are from the same batch.










That is all

[rad14701]

Ok I just found 4 Q5040 Triacs in Fastpak package cheap. (oddball voltage (500) in between the 4040 and 6040 but otherwise the same)

I want to control 11000W worth of elements on a 40 gallon boiler so I am going to try to parallel the triacs. It's not the best practice but it should work if they are from the same batch.

Is that 11000W, as in eleven thousand watts...??? All with a single controller, driving multiple triacs...???

[Ben Stillin]

That is correct

2, 5500W 220V elements

my other option is to use 2 oppositely facing 50amp SCRs and create my own 100amp triac. However I think this adds a bit more complication.

[rad14701]

That's a lot of power to be pushing... That's over 45A if you use a single 220V/240V circuit... Not to mention that a 40 gallon boiler is pushing beyond the realm of what might be considered home distillation for personal consumption...

[Ben Stillin]

I have a 60 amp 220V hot tub circuit and we will be doing only low abv all grain bourbon runs possibly doing a natural yeast.


Yes, we are also interested in going commercial, the craft distillers market in Texas is HOT!

[Ben Stillin]

optionally I suppose I can control each element with a single standalone controller.


With these Triacs being so inexpensive this might be the best option, it cuts out the potential for "escaping magic smoke".

[DAveCuds]

Does anyone know of an alternative to Thermal paste, say something i may find around the house.
Or would ordinary grease work, or something like that?

[Ben Stillin]

regular grease is likely more of an insulator. Thermal paste is pretty common at any computer store and radio shack or online like newegg. Look for some high quality stuff called arctic silver.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


The even sell arctic silver conductive epoxy if you really want to stick that sucker down.

[rad14701]

Another option is using the Zinc Oxide paste marketed as sun screen cream... Zinc Oxide is the main component in most thermal transfer pastes, along with something like glycerin to make it into a paste...

[DAveCuds]

Brilliant Rad, exactly what i was after. Cheers

[Centar]

Reposted from another thread I replied to for the same question:

Just about any zinc oxide ointment will work as an heat sink paste but they usually don't have the silicon oil to prevent them from drying out like the real heat sink paste does.

Considering the low cost of the real macoy and it's wide spread availability (any electronic store or online) and that a ounce or two will last you a LONG time there is NO reason to use a substitute, save for an emergency situation...but I would still replace it with the right stuff later on.

There exists thermal epoxy that not only transfers the heat but bonds the part to the heat sink as well...

And of course there is the best way and that is NO paste at all but to solder the part directly to the heat sink but this usually can only be done with tab mounted devices and copper heat sinks (which are the best)

[freespirited]

I was planning to use a PID with 2-25A SSR's (US). After reading this 52 pages it started to sound like it wasnt feasible since the temp would not stay steady? Did I read this right? MK's setup is PID but may be more sophisticated than meets the eye. Input please.

[freespirited]

After reading again Im getting that it is possible to use a PID to MANUALLY run the still just not automatically. Correct? Reason I ask is I can get a PID and 2 SSR's with heat sinks for the same price or cheaper than the PSR25 controller.

[rad14701]

I was planning to use a PID with 2-25A SSR's (US). After reading this 52 pages it started to sound like it wasnt feasible since the temp would not stay steady? Did I read this right? MK's setup is PID but may be more sophisticated than meets the eye. Input please.

The use of dual SSR's is usually reserved for much higher amperage's than what we run and usually on higher voltage circuits which are isolated from residential mains... The same goes for using dual SCR's... That isn't to say it wouldn't work, however... Just sounds like inviting the possibility of added complexity and its associated problems...

Also, is your pricing for SSR's or SCR's...???

[MuleKicker]

You can run a pid, but you have to put the pid controller into manual mode, so it is percent output. then you control output by either burstfire, or 4-20ma signal. When the pid is in auto mode, it chases temp. we all know you dont want that. Different brands may program differently, I have experience with the watlow brand. With them, you hit the infinity key 2 times and the % light comes on. Then you know you are in manual mode.

[freespirited]

Heres what I was looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PID-SSR-TEMPERATURE ... 9052600572

http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-S ... 230d8d301c


Im assuming these would work...

I accounted for two SSR's because I have two legs of 110v (US) I would rather have one on ea to make the circuit to the element dead when the PID is off.


I called Watlow to get an updated part# for the 96 series and it is PM6C1CA-AAAAAAA @ $167 ea

There SSR's are 240-25A-DC1 @ $37 ea.

The ones on Ebay I have no idea how many signals a minute they give, I know the Watlow give up 60 a min. Does this matter, Im assuming it does?
Also what about the K thermo-coupling, is that the one I want?

[freespirited]

Today I found the manual for the Aubur PID. http://auberins.com/images/Manual/Manua ... %203.4.pdf
It like the Watlow runs 60 cycles a min so I guess Im good there. However, they show a 240v ssr setup (2nd to last pg) that isnt my cup of tea. I thought that a 4500w-240v element would be wired like this:

[guittarmaster]

Alrighty,

Here is a VERY ROUGH edit... more like a dailies actrually , of my controller box build, A few things first. I still need to install a ground into the middle wire onto the box. Then, i need to shrink up my heat wrap shrinks and insulate the 3-way and 4-way union with tape. That being said. Here is a very rough cut of my controller box. You can find the diagram on page 47 of this thrread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p6866376. Going to wire the ground today and have one of my buddies who is an electrican come check it for me for getting him drunk Then will edit a nice tutorial. Thanks for the imput

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HUqj-60tLk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

GM

[edit: now have ground installed. Aside from just plugging this in, how could i test this and find out if it is all done correctly or is it impossible given the parts? I don't want to release the the magic blue smoke! Also will be editing on this over the next weeks to make a nice youtube tutorial.
GM