Hiding from the revenuers!

[blind drunk]

Easy'st thing I have ever done where the government is involved.

Careful, it's a Trojan Horse

Just kidding.

[mash rookie]

Thanks KS,

I think it makes sense to go that route even though they don’t seem to be pursuing small operations.

Especially considering the possible punishments of taking our home and life’s possessions under US law.

Let us know if they contact you to “inspect your operation”

You are treading on fresh ground. The better we understand what the ground rules are for playing our game, the better off we will be.

Thanks for being “out there” and going through the learning curve for us.

BTW. Love the SF. I have some on oak now.
MR

[Bull Rider]

Even if you get a federal permit, under dubious facts, you have your state regulations to negotiate.

This is the issue with marijuana. The Washington State legislature just passed legislation to overhaul the state medical marijuana laws, but the Gov. vetoed it because the proposed legislation is in direct opposition to the federal laws.

So, before you do a dance with the devil, you still have to resolve the state regulations. Washington State does have a law that provides for a free permit to make ethanol for home use. Washington State also has a artisan distiller license for $200.00 per year IF more than 50% of the raw ingredients are from Washington State. I called and tried to get one, but they won't sell one until you have the Federal permits. Checkmate baby.

You decide if you want to be on the radar of the federal and state bureaucracy or if you want to stay in the shadows.


Bull.

[Kentucky shinner]

I would more than likely never have done this, but with videos on the internet and running legal registered business It was a must. The TTB never ask anything about my local government. When we finished the phone interview they told me once I received my permit I could make up to 10,000.00 Gallons per year with no penalty's. Maybe I should check with the state. I have not done that.
Like I said I would have never done this but with a out in the open business you must do what you have to do. In my case I saw no other option. Mike at Mile Hi told me he got his permit 7 years ago and has never heard anything else from the government about it. I know of another guy that has had his for 4 years and said the same.

[mash rookie]

Not interested in being an artisan distiller of consumable spirits for sale or selling any of my fuel.

I guess it comes down to ones level of comfort. Coming in below the radar seems to the easiest way to go as they don’t appear to be looking for us. They are no doubt aware and appear to be tolerant unless you are trying to distribute and sell your stuff.

If you can get a federal fuel permit for $50 and a Washington state fuel permit for free it would make running your still legal.

If you have these permits, Don’t sell, I doubt that they would care if your fuel tastes like whiskey. Intended use, actual use, incidental loss, Research and development. A lot of room for argument if they did.


With the price of gas going through the roof they are probably receiving dozens of applications everyday.

So… It comes down to whether you are nervous about how much exposure you have or if you are confident they are not on a witch hunt for amature distillers. It does seem like cheap insurance.

[Mr.Spooky]

i wander what the ratio is between people who apply, and those who get aproved.
KY might have been that 1 in 1000 that was aporved and that leaves 999 that just threw up a red flag .
within any "permit", there is a set number that will be aproved. otherwise,,,,,,,,, it wouldent be a permit.
spooky

[Bull Rider]

Here's Washington's law on ethanol fuel...



RCW 66.12.130

Alcohol for use as fuel in motor vehicles, farm implements, machines, etc., or in combination with other petroleum products for use as fuel.


Nothing in this title shall apply to or prevent the sale, importation, purchase, production, or blending of alcohol used solely for fuel to be used in motor vehicles, farm implements, and machines or implements of husbandry or in combination with gasoline or other petroleum products for use as such fuel. Manufacturers and distillers of such alcohol fuel are not required to obtain a license under this title. Alcohol which is produced for use as fuel shall be denatured in accordance with a formula approved by the federal bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms prior to the removal of the alcohol from the premises as described in the approved federal permit application: PROVIDED, That alcohol which is being transferred between plants involved in the distillation or manufacture of alcohol fuel need not be denatured if it is transferred in accordance with federal bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms regulation 27 C.F.R. 19.996 as existing on July 26, 1981. The exemptions from the state liquor control laws provided by this section only apply to distillers and manufacturers of alcohol to be used solely for fuel as long as the manufacturers and distillers are the holders of an appropriate permit issued under federal law.

[1981 c 179 § 1; 1980 c 140 § 2.]


It had to be denatured IF it leaves the premises. Also, no license is required, so you don't even have to declare or announce. Seems like they're saying that it's unregulated by the state IF it's used a fuel AND you have the Federal fuel permits...

I've got one happy John Deere tractor.


Bull

[Bull Rider]

Here's the Craft Distiller law. The fee used to be $200.00, it's now $100.00. I tried to get one of these from the state, but they won't sell unless you have the Federal permit in hand. Washington state is seeing a TON of craft distilleries pop up all around the state.

Cheers.



RCW 66.24.140
Distiller's license — Fee.


There shall be a license to distillers, including blending, rectifying and bottling; fee two thousand dollars per annum, unless provided otherwise as follows:

(1) For distillers producing sixty thousand gallons or less of spirits with at least half of the raw materials used in the production grown in Washington, the license fee shall be reduced to one hundred dollars per annum;



Bull.

[mash rookie]

Bull
Somewhere on my PC I have downloaded the Fed application or recorded the link. Might have even printed it.

I am hanging out at my boat getting a little work done on her today. Finally a little sunshine. I will look for it tonight when I get home.

I am definitely going to have a closer look at it. From what I read from KS that you dont have to file reports either

Mike at Mile Hi told me he got his permit 7 years ago and has never heard anything else from the government about it. I know of another guy that has had his for 4 years and said the same.

If it is that simple to remove threat of prosecution, I am all in. (although its kind of fun being an outlaw)
Mash

[Bull Rider]

Mash: We used to have a 30' sailboat on Puget Sound, a lot of fun, even more work. Salt water and electronics don't play nicely together. Too much work after awhile. We do miss the water.

A couple of years ago we chartered a 40' trawler out of Anacortes. Had a hoot, left the waxing to someone else. Caught our limit of Dungeness crab everyday.




Bull.

[canadianmoonshiner]

This hobby is fun up to a point. That point is getting caught, or worse, the fear of getting caught. If you are looking for cheap booze pick up a bottle of whatever at the duty-free. If you are serious, call the TTB or whoever is the "revenuer" in your country & get licensed.

[BillHoo]

My still is on a hi-rise condominium patio (enclosed so that my neighbors next to me cannot see what is on my patio) facing the Potomac. I have a neighbor who is an ATF agent a few doors down.

I'm high enough up where no one on the ground can see my setup and helicopters buzzing by are going too fast to see anything. Besides. I only distill in the late fall when it's cold and everyone has their patio doors shut, so they cannot hear or smell anything and I do it in the evennings.

I suppose when the revenuer goes to work, he's looking for stills out in the woods, NOT next door to his condo!

[DAD300]

I live in a U.S. State where owning a "distilling apparatus," of any kind, is illegal! There are a few such states...

Last Friday night, my wife, I always say it's her's, ran 8 gallons of brown sugar wash, dismantled the still, cleaned the boiler (a large milk can)and stacked it and a lot of stainless column on the back porch, ready to be put away.

Monday at noon she came home to find the house broken into. Looked like the bad guys were still there. So, the Sheriff beat me to the house. Cleared the house, no bad guys. Minor robbery, some electronic stuff.

But the responding Sheriff saw the still, photographed it as a part of the crime scene and asked if that was there or did the thieves set it there? I'm sure he was letting me know, he knew what it was, but never came right out with it. Still the pucker factor was there!

I operate under the assumption that, distilling for yourself, not selling, will be tolerated by most authorities. However, if they were looking for a reason to bust you, it would stick!

[rad14701]

DAD300, in EVERY state in the US home distillation is illegal at the federal level... Don't get an overly secure feeling simply because Johnny Law didn't do anything when he was there... You're definitely on the radar at this point... Live with the assumption that you are under further investigation and that future unannounced visits will be at his discretion... Take due precautions as you deem fit because search warrants are easy to acquire in todays world... Oh, and stating that "it's her's" won't hold water in court because you could still be found guilty of conspiracy at the very least...

[Bull Rider]

DAD300:

Here's a scenario.

Mr. Deputy sheriff gets a subpoena to court next week. While he/she's there, waiting to testify on a traffic citation, Mr. Deputy is BSing with the state Liquor Enforcement officer. Mr. Liquor Enforcement officer is waiting for his case to be called, he's testifying about a tavern that's been over serving their customers.

So to pass the time, Mr. Deputy tells Mr. Liquor Enforcement about the "interesting call" he handled at your home. In fact, he even offers to email the photos of your still.

Mr. Deputy doesn't care too much about you doing home distilling, but Mr. Liquor Enforcement officer is very passionate about enforcing liquor laws, and he's due to promote next year and a good newsworthy bust never hurts.

So now you are a Project.

Take reasonable precautions sir.



Bull.

[Bushman]

DAD300 that is a bad scenerio! I think I would move my still to a new location, I agree with Bull it is now in evidence and that stuff just doesn't go away.

[OlympicMtDoo]

Rubber Duck, I love your outlook on this, I two make highly condenced beer from here forward..........love it. In fact this has come up as a valuable idea, I do a bit of hiking in the high local Mts and like to enjoy a drink in the evening while looking at the stars, beer is simply too heavy to carry so I condence it for travel convenience.

[Bull Rider]

Here's something to consider. I have about 30 gallons of home brew in five gallon kegs. It's good stuff, and I get a lot of compliments on my beer. But those kegs of beer have all of the bad stuff that I routinely remove from my spirits.

My beer still has the foreshots, the heads and the tails. There's no way to remove that stuff from beer (or wine). So you end up drinking it unknowingly.

So, like RubberDuck says, it's not only more convenient, it's a much cleaner and healthier beverage.

(no) Bull.

[OlympicMtDoo]

There ya go Bull Rider, we got enough water in everything in this PNW without adding it to our drink or leaving it in there which ever applies.

[AnOniiMouse]

If it is that simple to remove threat of prosecution, I am all in. (although its kind of fun being an outlaw)
Mash

This method should't be considered a full coverage insurance policy. If yoy're caught drinking your 'fuel' the penalties are the same as not having a license. If you have no choice but to be in the public eye it may be a nice buffer though.

[Tater]

So I guess the-- (Your honor I wouldn't put anything in my car I wouldn't drink myself )defense wouldn't work?

[Bull Rider]

It's not illegal to make homemade spirits per se, it is illegal to do it with out the proper paperwork. Just like it's illegal to gamble UNLESS you have the proper licenses and pay the correct taxes. I see where they're cracking down on online gambling because they're not getting any revenue at the state or local level.

I've contemplated getting a "fuel" permit, just to have it available if needed, but I hate to put myself on the government's Radar. I wonder what an attorney would advise.


BuLL.

[White Lightning]

Thanks for all the input.

I have to admit one of the reasons I started this hobby was for the "outlaw" factor. I've made beer and ciders before and that was cool just because of the self-sufficient feelings but it was sort of lacking the sexy danger.
I'm a huge fan of classic country and western (I DJ that stuff at local bars now and then) and the romance of good ol' mountain dew is too strong to resist.

However, I've noticed I've reached the threshold between a curious interest and a committed endeavor. I'm hooked.

[The Baker]

'It's not illegal to make homemade spirits per se, it is illegal to do it with out the proper paperwork.'

Not able to comment on American rules but in Australia
It is illegal (unless you are commercial with all the permits and paperwork and taxes) to have a still of more than 5 litres capacity (possibly, '5 litres or more') and
it is illegal to use a still of any size to produce alcohol.