Why exactly?

[AKAAB]

You know it's actually every bit as illegal to grow your own tobacco?

Seriously? I didn't know that.

[Slowninja]

Part of figuring HOW to legalize it would be knowing WHY it's illegal to start with.

The licensing/ testing idea is excellent.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Part of figuring HOW to legalize it would be knowing WHY it's illegal to start with.

The licensing/ testing idea is excellent.

WHY is simple........Lost revenue.......TAX MONEY!

[EscarpmentDew]

This much is certain, the legality is either to do with politics or with money, and there is little difference between the two. Politicians greed for money and taxes satisfy it. To get politicians on board, their bank cannot be compromised, so whoever said play by their rules nailed it. Figure out a way to get decriminalized or legalized hobby distilling but without costing politicians money. Even the safety aspect will boil down to money as far as a politician is concerned. To me, the safety aspect cannot be bypassed (thinking about my learning curve).

[MDH]

Beer is the world's third most consumed beverage behind tea and water. The fact that distilled spirits continue to be banned from home production has everything to do with tradition and essentially nothing to do with logic, and trust me, very little to do with tax revenue, as I sincerely doubt it would impact them. The vast majority of people still buy beer at the store.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Beer is the world's third most consumed beverage behind tea and water. The fact that distilled spirits continue to be banned from home production has everything to do with tradition and essentially nothing to do with logic, and trust me, very little to do with tax revenue, as I sincerely doubt it would impact them. The vast majority of people still buy beer at the store.

Well if it aint about the money, they sure do make you post an awful expensive bond to run a distillery..........................

[EscarpmentDew]

Beer is the world's third most consumed beverage behind tea and water. The fact that distilled spirits continue to be banned from home production has everything to do with tradition and essentially nothing to do with logic, and trust me, very little to do with tax revenue, as I sincerely doubt it would impact them. The vast majority of people still buy beer at the store.

Are you from New Zealand? I've been told that the tax revenues increased when home distilling was made legal. However, I have to ask you about two of your comments. Why is it tradition to ban home distillation? That statement just doesn't ring true with me.

Why do you think the vast majority of people who drink beer actually buy it from a beer store? Tell me how many people drink beer and how much of it. I just don't understand where you are getting this confidence from. However, I understand your opinion and do not mean to say I disagree. The majority of people who drink beer probably are homeless and in poverty based on my neighbourhood, so that is another factor to consider.

[Slowninja]

I dont know if thats true. Here in Oklahoma, beer generally is the 2nd highest consumed beverage.. Behind sweet tea.

lol

[HeadCase]

Beer is the world's third most consumed beverage behind tea and water. The fact that distilled spirits continue to be banned from home production has everything to do with tradition and essentially nothing to do with logic, and trust me, very little to do with tax revenue, as I sincerely doubt it would impact them. The vast majority of people still buy beer at the store.

Hmmm... speech and grammar makes me think MDH is in the states. Plus, the aspect of the comment made makes me also think that there is some known information as to the laws of spirits.

So this can be very simple as to state that the taxes play a part in this, or it can go much deeper into the psychological aspect as to the hold over the mentality on the American people. If we are to give them the one most major controlled substance within the US, who is to say that all hell will break loose with everything else that we [US Govt] typically find illegal. In the last 50 years the hold of the government over the American people has gotten much tighter, what makes us this legalization issue would loosen this grip a bit.

[goDtaC]

After reading all the posts and comments it appears to me that no one has actually answered the original question.
“ Why is it illegal ? “

I am not an expert on the subject but I have read a lot on it down through the years and do have a grasp on the whys of it. I don’t have the time to go back and research it all again to include exact dates, places, and foot note all the facts, but I will give a bit of a synopses on the subject.

In truth the answers were there in the proceeding comments but they were not expressed as facts.
The main reason that it is illegal in the US is the same reason we are in all the problems we are in today.
Politics, and Money !

Here is a detailed explanation :

At the founding of our great country the bulk of the populous made whiskey. Every kind of whiskey ! The early settlers came mostly from western Europe and brought traditional distillation along with them. This was all fine and dandy up until the newly formed United States gov. found themselves in need of revenue ! So playing it safe they decided to tax those heathen sinners who spread alcohol about the land ( just like now days Well this did not go over so well !
It started with a bit of grumbling and ended with damn near Revolution 2.0 !
Look up the Whiskey Rebellions of ( I think 1806 ? ) give or take a year

The population armed themselves and marched on the Gov. !
Needless to say the fine upstanding gov. officials of the day tucked their tail and ran. The rebellions caused the overturn of the new whiskey tax laws and they settled on only taxing the manufacturers who made it for resale. The folks went home and made legal whiskey until 1920 when a bunch of do gooders decided that the bulk of us are evil and needed to be controlled in our vices ! So with the help of some friendly control oriented progressives they passed all kinds of good for us laws like income tax ! Telephone taxes and countless other things to help make life better
Among them was a great little constitutional amendment called Probation !

Well needless to say Probation took away the individuals right to make whiskey for his own use as the whole country went dry ! This brought in the true boon of Moon Shining and Bootlegging and all that other neat stuff that came with it. In 1933 we got our shit together and over turned Probation. ! It was a simple amendment that said the 18th has been repealed ! That set everything related to home made whiskey back to the pre-probation status. So it was again legal for people to make their own. This was very short lived as while the 21st amendment was being ratified lobbyists for the whiskey industry were hard at work bending ears and paying bribes to legislators ( both houses, both parties ) to set stringent new regulations on WHO would be allowed to make and sell whiskey when the scourge of probation was ended. Needless to say we lost out to big liquor ! In the time leading up to and following the repeal of probation many restrictive laws were passed to keep the common man from making his own. And they had to have something for all those G-men to do now that probation was over, so they sent them all out to crack down on John Q Public and make sure those taxes got paid ! Even wine and beer were outlawed for home production in post probation America ! It stayed that way until 1977 when a small legal flaw in the exact wording of the restrictive laws opened up a small window of opportunity for those to be made legal again. Do not remember the exacts of it but it was some of that legal ease that make it possible to get more than one definition as to rather “ beer and wine “ or “ beer or wine “ were legal to make. A mere technicality that made it possible to free up both.

As far as “ CAN I GROW, MAKE, OR BUILD WHAT I WANT ON MY OWN PROPERTY ? “ the answer is a resounding NO !
That was set in stone in 1942 when the gov. sued some poor ass farmer who grew wheat to feed to his wife and kids !
It went to the supreme court and they ruled that his personal use made impact on public demand which directly interfere rs with Interstate Commerce ! There is little you can do that is still truly legal and unfettered by our great gov. machine !

Hope that helps a little. As far as safety goes. I don't see a future need to license a home distiller. Set some rules YES ! but hot a control board either gov. or professional. We all know that will lead to no good ! If it could be made legal there is already a big book of rules and regs regarding distillation and it could be simmered down for home use. I could just as easy burn down the house making french fries as I could stillin' Hell even more so ! A rule book, and good common sense are all you need. I know there are some bad guys in the world, and some idiots but rules will not effect either of them !

I would like to see it legal. You should have to have a rule book, and a log book. You should be able to make 10 gallon a year for yourself and 20 for a family. You should have to go to the post office and buy a 20$ liquor stamp to make a proof gallon, and should have to have the proper stamps applied to your log book for each finished run. You should be able to keep multiple years of stock aging and curing say 50 gallon of proof whiskey per person and 100 gallon for family. The book has all the rules for where and when and how so it's no problem. Rather have the guy next door have gasoline or whiskey in his garage ?

Whiskey would be safer

Pot size should be capped at 10l for indoor use and at 60l for remote ( private garage or shed, or back yard )
would be ample. The only time stills blow up is when feds are around

Hope this was of some value to someone. I sure wasted the last hour or so if it aint

Take care all.

[rad14701]

goDtaC, not much there that you couldn't have learned on either The Discovery Channel or The History Channel... What, exactly, is your real world experience with home distillation...??? Have you been involved in it long enough to have real world experience rather than simply an informed opinion...??? You're kinda middle of the road on things if you ask me... You don't want government control, but you do... We all know where that leads... Give them an inch and they take the mile they have already taken... I like the "Keep your nose outta my ass!" approach...

[BigPa]

goDtaC, not much there that you couldn't have learned on either The Discovery Channel or The History Channel... What, exactly, is your real world experience with home distillation...??? Have you been involved in it long enough to have real world experience rather than simply an informed opinion...??? You're kinda middle of the road on things if you ask me... You don't want government control, but you do... We all know where that leads... Give them an inch and they take the mile they have already taken... I like the "Keep your nose outta my ass!" approach...

My thoughts exactly Rad...

[MitchyBourbon]

Godtac,

Most of what you have said is accurate. Homebrew wine was made legal at the time when prohibition was repealed. Homebrew beer was not made legal till Jimmy Carter made it legal in 1976. Home distilling unfortunately remains illegal.

So the question remains... Why? To pretend that knowing why is unimportant is foolish. The real reason homedistilling remains illegal may be simple inertia. So let's examine the most popular reasons.

It may poison consumers. Not a valid reason. Wine and beer making have the problem, but we can isolate the methanol and discard it so distilling is safer.

The process is dangerous. Not a valid reason. The gov. gives permits for distilling fuel to anyone that asks, so if it is safe for them it is safe for us.

Loss of revenue. This too is not valid. They could put similar limits on the amount of production allowed annually.

Liquor lobbies. Not likely. I have read that interest in beer increased after home brewing beer was made legal in 1976.

If I had to guess, I would say the solution is to gain a load voice. One that is load enough to overcome the inertia that keeps home distillation in the shadows.

[Bob421]

You know it's actually every bit as illegal to grow your own tobacco?

It is perfectly legal to grow your own tobacco at least around here. (midwest US) Lost of folks do it and some even sell it but to get the price with the subsidies you need what is called a tobacco base, a permit to sell a certain amount.
Dad has been growing his own chewing tobacco for many years right in the garden.

[goDtaC]

Rad,

I never inserted any comments that would relate to “ Real world experience ” in the subject at hand. I expressed factual information on a historical event, and finished up with personal opinions on how a proper legal system would look to me.

If you had already got all that from the history channel I wish you’d answered the original question and not just poked at the first fellow to do so. I don’t post here for a living. I have only rang in 2 times ( 3 now ) since I joined officially in July. I’ve been reading here since 2007 and have gained tons of valuable insight from the fine folks who share their knowledge. Hell odds are I learnt something from you along the way

As far as my opinions on a legal system go I’d say you are 100% correct I am “ In the middle “
That’s a big problem we got now days in the US, everyone has to be polarized left or right and we can’t seem to find those happy mediums where things run smooth any more.

There are simple rules that anyone could follow and that we all could agree on. Yes they take a mile when they can, but a lot of that is because the guy on the other end is taking a mile as well, so we all just end up tugging on a rope and getting no where !

As far as me ringing in on what I have, or can do ? Not likely to happen ! I’ll offer up any intelligent info that I can, when I can but I’m not in it for a thread count ! Best me just let the experts talk and glean what I can from it most of the time. When I got something to offer that would not violate my 5th I’ll shout out


Mitch,

I did not try to get into that bit of history to deep as it deserves it’s own forum, let alone it’s own thread ! Spirits, wine or beer were made illegal for home production at the end of Probation by federal law. Early on the feds prosecuted a fellow over home made wine and lost ! They lost again on appeal and it dies there. They never pushed it to the Supreme level. They just let it go. Technically the way the law was written it was legal to make one or the other but not both. To give you an understanding of the value of a word remember back to when Bill Clinton made that now famous statement ( “That depends on what your definition of “ IS “ is “ ).

They put an “ or “ where an “and “ should have been and it throw a monkey wrench into the works, so wine kind of took the high ground, and beer was the bustard child in the deal. More societal scaling so to speak !

In 1977 - 78 they threw an amendment onto a tax bill dealing with heavy trucks and exempted
home made “ Beer and Wine “ from federal tax, there by keeping Carters brother Billy out of the big house

That’s all fact, and you can look up every bit of it if you have time.

As for the reason as to why it was made illegal in the first place ? I said it correctly as well.
Money and politics ! Big liquor wanted it all and got it ! Just like the Dupont family along with J. Paul Getty and the W.R.Hurst outlawed hemp ! Dupont had a new product called Nylon and they wanted to sell it. So they bought a few politicians, printed a few stories and created an undo fear in the American public. Big liquor did the same. They ran all the small distilleries, wineries, and breweries out of business with probation and saw to it through legislation that they would never come back ! That’s the plain and simple of it and if it were not for a simple and/or mistake you would be here talking about wine and beer exactly the same way as you do about whiskey !

Big liquor did not go down during probation and they did not have to throw out their aging stock ! They got to sit on it and sell it as prescription. Yes a Dr. Could write you a script and you could take it to a pharmacy and pick up a bottle of JD or JB or several others. They kept running grain alcohol for medical use. Geritol and a 1000 products just like it came along to fill the need. It’s 80 proof with vitamins added ! Why you think the little ole church laddies drank it down
With all the wineries gone folks were scrambling for vinegar ! Pre probation every one got wine or apple vinegar locally, There was no true market for distilled vinegar ! Ever heard of Hunts ? They became billionaires while poor people starved on street corners, and big liquor sold more to the vinegar industry than they could have in bonded whisky ! And still do !


Bob,

I don’t know tobacco law, but I am sure you can find something at TTB.gov that will prohibit you I was told by a fellow in the know a few years back that if you put a shovel in the ground and turn over a spade of dirt you will be violating 27 different EPA regulations ! That’s just one department of a massive bureaucracy, and that was a few years ago. Needless to say those are not the only 27 you will be violating if you plant a stick of tobacco ! It’s not that it’s not illegal, it’s just that they have not got to you yet


Gentleman I am done aiding in the hijacking of this thread. It’s been a pleasure, I may ring in again from time to time, but I can not afford the time to be a mega-poster.

Thanks for the opportunity to post.
goDtaC

[PA41]

Many good points. Shine must make ya smart to, not just a good singer and dancer.

I like the ideas with moderation and training involved, I think it would much more likely to really happen if it were presented as a helping thing -- more safety-even -more regulatuion, finger printing, background check etc.. I could see a program much like the firearm concealed carry program but for home distillers. Already a BATF outline, so it would be working within their existing outline and methods. It wouldn't look like huge change, and wouldn't ruffle BATF too much--might even be presented as giving them more controll/power. Just add another type of permit.

I'm certianly not a fan of government controll, but I am somewhat of a bureraucrat, a bureaucracy is a wonderful place to get lost in. To change the system ya really need to be a part of it. (or at least appear to be).

Enjoying the ideas and background explanations..

PA41

[GuyFawkes]

I would like to add that the government and the alcohol industry (which is a huge industry) both lose money when we choose to make our alcohol instead of buying it.

Those are two powerful fellers there, and they don't want to lose money. I think it is illegal (but generally not prosecuted unless you're pretty large scale or blatantly obvious) mostly to force the majority of people to buy store stuff. I mean, us home distillers are definitely the minority so I think they don't mind the tax or income loss to so few of us. But, if they were to make it legal I think a lot more people would start making their own stuff, which could cause a lot of problems for those big companies and really the gooberment too.

I'm definitely not saying it's right to be illegal, just my opinion on why it is. And to Rad, I think it's extremely important to know why it's illegal, since that is paramount in making it un-illegal (or just legal....)

[Padraig]

I'm not as convinced. Legalization of beer and wine making has certainly not hurt those industries. I would argue that it's made them more robust by increasing the number of knowledgeable and interested consumers. There are a terrific number of homebrewers in my area and a terrific demand for higher quality (and costlier) beer. Coincidence? I think not.

-P

[GuyFawkes]

I'm not as convinced. Legalization of beer and wine making has certainly not hurt those industries. I would argue that it's made them more robust by increasing the number of knowledgeable and interested consumers. There are a terrific number of homebrewers in my area and a terrific demand for higher quality (and costlier) beer. Coincidence? I think not.

-P

I never said it was a good reason. The number of lazy people out there who are willing to buy overpriced cheap booze and drink that cheap booze rather than just make some decent stuff for half the cost themselves..... it's still a big number. You can make a sandwich for like a dollar at home, or get a $5 sub that won't taste any better from Subway, extra if you want a watery coke and some chips.

I am so for legalizing home distilling, there's a few people out there I'd like to see give it a shot and blow themselves up because they sealed the fermenter or didn't make the still open to the air.

[John Barleycorn]

The number of lazy people out there who are willing to buy overpriced cheap booze and drink that cheap booze rather than just make some decent stuff for half the cost themselves..... it's still a big number

I'm inclined to be a tad more generous. I think it's probably less about being lazy and more about time since this hobby requires a serious commitment. It would be a helluva lot cheaper for me to just buy top-shelf liquor ... and nobody would ever accuse me of being lazy. Once I start adding up the hours of study, preparation, etc. etc., buying is certainly cheaper (time = $) and gets me what I want quicker ... never mind equipment investment. But buying isn't nearly as interesting nor satisfying ... there's no awe or fascination in it.

That said, the main point is well taken. I can still go fishing without harming commercial fisheries. And my garden hasn't affected the price of tomatoes nor has it put any farm hands out of work. Hell, I can even raise my own chickens without affecting Mr. Tyson's profits (or the taxes collected on them). But I have yet to hear about anyone being convicted for any of those activities.

I actually think it boils down to the fact that there are just not enough of us for the typical politician to care. And even if there were, there's a stigma attached to ... how would they say it ? ... "moon shining" ? ... rather than "home distilling." They'd avoid it like the plague. And, like it or not, home distilling is WAY out of the mainstream ... even the "legalize marijuana" crowd has more mind share and popular support than we do.

--JB

[GuyFawkes]

Maybe my initial post was misguided.... let me clarify what I was trying to say (and my post applies specifically to America, as I don't know nearly as much about European or worldwide politics):

I think the big name distilleries want as little competition as possible, from smaller local distilleries to even home distillers like us. The biggest thing, I think, is about quality. If people begin making their own, as someone else here said, tastes will become more refined as people know more about what they're drinking. I don't think Jack Daniels (or Captain Morgan, or Crown Royal or any of those crap brands) wants you to know about that stuff, because if you know better you'll ask for better, and Jack Daniels isn't better. And nowadays those big guys hold a lot more influence over Washington than we the people, which, I think, is why it remains illegal. I don't know a ton about distilling, but I do know a lot about business, and usually the biggest reasons for major legislation change have to do with big business, so if we ever want it legal I think it would require a big business or industry heavily on our side, and right now I don't think there is.

[Husker]

I don't think Jack Daniels (or Captain Morgan, or Crown Royal or any of those crap brands) wants you to know about that stuff, because if you know better you'll ask for better, and Jack Daniels isn't better.

This actually sounds like one of the more plausible possibilities I have read so far. A very good point indeed. If your company makes a billion dollars a year off of folks that are buying SHIT, then why would you want your potential customers educated on what they SHOULD be wanting.

H.

[Dnderhead]

I beleve it more "money" speaks. the big distillers/business add billions to the political "cause"
Do you? no? then you wont git your way..

[MDH]

Large companies are a part of the problem. In control states and provinces where monopolies are the only ones allowed to buy alcohol, produces of basically shitty liquor are in much bigger business than they would be in other places, because most monopolies do not have independent inventory selection for each of their stores - they buy in large quantities and distribute throughout hundreds of stores over a vast area. In this case, large companies may lobby a liquor control board's continued existence, and push them to reconsider laws that may "Hurt" their business (Such as home distillation).

In England, a Canadian brewery was pushing the government there to impose minimum prices because they know it won't change most buyer's behavior and stands to make them more money. The british conservative party leader David Cameron was completely behind the idea. You can imagine this will not go down without a storm...

[StillsNMash]

Mainly because this is no longer "THE LAND OF THE FREE".......

It's still the land of the free as long as we play within their lines and with their sand and their toys.

[midcarolina]

We are not the land of the free have not been so for a long time....... gov has been steadily encroaching on our private lives and crushing our liberties for years.........................anyone who does not think so is simply sticking their head in the sand.

Now.........home distillation is in the same boat as weed and other easily home produces items..... simply a matter of money, there is no way to keep the dollars flowing to the gov. look at the states that have medical weed laws, they have licensed stores why? to collect the tax money.

If it was remotely related to a safety issue I would not be able to deep fry a turkey.......... or fill my own car up with gasoline

Simply boils down to just like every thing in life............. follow the money

[GuyFawkes]

We are not the land of the free have not been so for a long time....... gov has been steadily encroaching on our private lives and crushing our liberties for years.........................anyone who does not think so is simply sticking their head in the sand.

Now.........home distillation is in the same boat as weed and other easily home produces items..... simply a matter of money, there is no way to keep the dollars flowing to the gov. look at the states that have medical weed laws, they have licensed stores why? to collect the tax money.

If it was remotely related to a safety issue I would not be able to deep fry a turkey.......... or fill my own car up with gasoline

Simply boils down to just like every thing in life............. follow the money

It isn't just about the government, it's also the uneducated majority making decisions for the educated minority. We distillers KNOW that our hobby isn't dangerous to anyone's safety or money (relatively speaking, of course), but if you stopped 1,000 people on the streets all around the country I'd bet at least 90% would not know the first thing about distilling and would say it is unsafe and costs the government money, based solely on prohibition propaganda that remains to this day. I'm sure big name companies like JD and such are also making sure that nothing is put out to stop this propaganda either, I don't think the big boys in Washington could give two shits if distilling is legal or not.

Nearly the same thing is true about weed, although I won't even start with that here. People still buy into "reefer madness", and they don't even begin to understand it. In this case it's pharmaceutical companies that don't want the truth to be spread, but it's eerily similar. But again, I don't think the government really cares. One of my buddies is a DEA agent, and he says most of the DEA turns a blind eye to weed unless it also involves smuggling guns and harder drugs.

[steve45ca]

I know here in Canada the duty on distilled spirits is $0.11696 (11.696 CENTS) per 1 liter of pure alcohol.... or 20L of pure alcohol would cost $2.33 in duty.... peanuts really compared with the tax in the US......

[midcarolina]

It isn't just about the government, , but if you stopped 1,000 people on the streets all around the country I'd bet at least 90% would not know the first thing about distilling and would say it is unsafe and costs the government money, based solely on prohibition propaganda that remains to this day.


Yep........ completely due to negative propoganda.............designed to maintain $$$$$$$$$$

Hell, I made a comment to a manager at a Krispy Kreme donut store a while back about their chocolate glazed donuts not tasting like they used to. He said the Government made them change their recipe because it was too fatty....... Imagine that we live in a country where the gov. can mandate such a thing....

[GuyFawkes]

Hell, I made a comment to a manager at a Krispy Kreme donut store a while back about their chocolate glazed donuts not tasting like they used to. He said the Government made them change their recipe because it was too fatty....... Imagine that we live in a country where the gov. can mandate such a thing....

The government likely didn't mandate it, I've never heard of something like that. Probably what happened is the government told Krispy Kreme to reduce calories and fat, or they'd take away tax benefits. Same thing the feds did to the state governments to get them to raise the drinking age to 21, if they didn't they'd have all highway funds stripped from them.

Unconstitutional has just become another word these days, no one gives a rat's ass about the founding fathers anymore and it's a shame. They were very smart guys who knew a lot about government and did a great job founding a country