Another VM Head - Comments Criticisms??!?!

[plamrock]

Hi all,

yes another newbie throwing out a new idea for a VM head. Hopefully the drawing is fairly self explanatory. The idea being that the reflux ratio is controlled by an inserted 'pipe valve' with a 10% orifice. Turning the pipe valve allows you to select full reflux (ie product condenser closed) through to 10% product. The orifice can be made any size to allow a higher take off, or you could close the reflux condensor for stripping. (OK think I have that right, stand to be corrected).

I haven't drawn in the thermo but it would be inserted through the valve cap. The condensers are at a 5 degree angle to the column.

With the double head I was hoping to avoid all the issues of a reflux/leibig set up (ie take off diameters, valve location etc). Also I can get away without a large gate valve which I had concerns about the volume of metal in the valve as a heat sink as well as the issue with the valve collecting condensate. I was originally thinking a double offset with vertical condensers but was wondering if this would do the same. I prefer keeping the head shorter.

As a symmetrical set up I am also hoping to have balance in vapour flow ie avoid vapour density issues. I haven't detailed any sizes (types) for the condensers but I was planning this all on 2inch. Any advice here welcome.

I am a bit concerned about the condensers cooling the head enclosure and causing condensate in the valve but maybe I am getting carried away on this one.

I would very much appreciate any comments and criticisms. As i said I am a newbie and might not be anywhere near the mark. I in fact enjoy the theory and concept designing so am happy to be sent back to the drawing board!

Cheers

[Bushman]

What issues are you referring to with a coil and liebig condensers? I believe you are making it way to complicated with 2 coils and through research we have improved on an offset head design which yours is a variation of. Also I do not understand how your inserted pipe valve with orifice is going to control reflux? Maybe you can explain it a bit more so I can understand what is happening.

[rad14701]

I think the fixed 10% slit theory for 10%/90% is flawed... Path of least resistance comes to mind immediately but there are more issues that I don't have time to delve into right now...

[plamrock]

What issues are you referring to with a coil and liebig condensers? I believe you are making it way to complicated with 2 coils and through research we have improved on an offset head design which yours is a variation of. Also I do not understand how your inserted pipe valve with orifice is going to control reflux? Maybe you can explain it a bit more so I can understand what is happening.

Hi Bushman, thanks for the response! I must admit i have a tendancy to go over the top sometimes with details but I appreciate the feedback.

The valve is the same principle as a three way ball valve but keeps the reflux vapour flow always open. In fact in this case it acts as a standard ball valve used in a VM system. ie it simply opens to the product condensor at a fixed aperature. Nothing complex but I apologise for my description, anyway this is all it does...

Valve Concept.jpg (5.86 KiB) Viewed 8470 times

The slit was simply to allow any condensate apprearing on the product condenser side of the valve body to flow back to the column (but forget about that I am just going over the top). Replace the split with a 10% hole ie equivalent to opening a VM side gate valve to allow 10% vapour pass.

As for the 'issues' I think I should have said parameters. Anyway reading all the different locations of valves, leibig condensors, reducers, vapour density in VM I was wondering if there was a way to simply bypass these. I am ready to be shot down here but isn't an offset still design LM or RLM rather than VM?

Complicated....Do you mean in terms of construction or my thoughts?! I can understand rolling a coil can be difficult (I admit never to have tried it), but given this whole head is made from a 2inch pipe with some 1/4 copper, in my head (and maybe mistakenly) I was thinking easier and cheaper. But then proof is in the pudding and I although I have done plenty of steel fabrication I have never attempted any copper work.

Anyway thanks for your time. I appreciate your feedback.

[plamrock]

I think the fixed 10% slit theory for 10%/90% is flawed... Path of least resistance comes to mind immediately but there are more issues that I don't have time to delve into right now...

Thanks Rad,

Yeah the slit was probably not my best thought. As I said to Bushman it was designed to deal with some condensate issues on the valve body but when I thought about it more it actually would not function. Anyway replace the slit with a 10% circular hole, nothing complex. (see the post to bushman with the diagram). Replacing with a circular aperature increases the area to edge ratio and puts is into the realm of a standard VM system.

I realise there are plenty of people asking questions here but if you get the time I would really appreciate hearing your ideas as to the issues.

Cheers

[Coaster]

@ plamrock,

You are needlessly attempting to make a simple Vapor Management Still complicated. What you are proposing doesn’t improve the function of Vapor Management but adds to the complexity and makes operation more difficult. The round wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented.

Suggest reviewing Forum Member’s HookLine below referenced “Some Still Drawings" for known proven Vapor Management Stills->

http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... hp?id=7969

Perhaps visiting the “Must Read” New Distiller Reading Lounge and review Forum Member’s kiwistiller ‘VM Operation Instructions’ will be helpful to you.

Regards,
Coaster

[rad14701]

I have to agree with the added complexity issue... I also don't understand the the thinking behind a 10:1 reflux ratio being the ideal... Considering how you can attain 95% ABV with a few as 4 HETP's, although it takes a lot more work to reach 96.5% ABV, that ratio shouldn't be considered a carved in stone guideline... At the very least the ratio needs to variable in one fashion or another... If I can ever get some shop time in I have a couple relatively simple and inexpensive ideas for adjustable porting for VM's...

Nobody is saying the idea won't work, we're merely pointing out inefficiencies as we see them...

Forgive me for not having taken the time to look back through your limited post history but have you actually built and run a still at this point or are you just coming up with concepts without practical experience...???

[plamrock]

@ plamrock,

You are needlessly attempting to make a simple Vapor Management Still complicated. What you are proposing doesn’t improve the function of Vapor Management but adds to the complexity and makes operation more difficult. The round wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented.

Suggest reviewing Forum Member’s HookLine below referenced “Some Still Drawings" for known proven Vapor Management Stills->

http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... hp?id=7969

Perhaps visiting the “Must Read” New Distiller Reading Lounge and review Forum Member’s kiwistiller ‘VM Operation Instructions’ will be helpful to you.

Regards,
Coaster

Thanks Coaster.

Not sure if it a problem from my end but the url link states that "The selected attachment does not exist anymore". I'll have a search around for it.

I know many people keep saying that this is complicating the issue but no one has actually mentioned what those complications are. Are you able to elaborate?

I suppose I started this as a thought experiment so sticking to existing ideas was not really the point. Anyway there are other threads where this build has already successfully been done ie Proporting splitting head. As you say no point in reinventing the wheel hey.

Cheers!

[plamrock]

I have to agree with the added complexity issue... I also don't understand the the thinking behind a 10:1 reflux ratio being the ideal... Considering how you can attain 95% ABV with a few as 4 HETP's, although it takes a lot more work to reach 96.5% ABV, that ratio shouldn't be considered a carved in stone guideline... At the very least the ratio needs to variable in one fashion or another... If I can ever get some shop time in I have a couple relatively simple and inexpensive ideas for adjustable porting for VM's...

Nobody is saying the idea won't work, we're merely pointing out inefficiencies as we see them...

Forgive me for not having taken the time to look back through your limited post history but have you actually built and run a still at this point or are you just coming up with concepts without practical experience...???

Thanks Rad,

Point taken about the ratios. I have now seen this design identified as a proportional splitting head and already developed so i will ask in these threads for the issues unless you have time to elaborate on these inefficiencies? I am getting a lot of over complicated posts but not much on what the over complications are. I take it from your comments on ratios that these are more process complexities than build complexities?!?!

I have to say when you mention you have a couple of ideas for simple and inexpensive adjustable porting for VM's I get very interested. After following the suggested path of reading and re-reading for a couple of months, from a theoretical perspective a proportional splitting head just seems to make sense to me which is why this thread. You are right on both counts about my history (practical experience....a massive hole!). As i mentioned to coaster this was a thought experiment that in fact I was beaten to already. I accept that maybe I need to be put back in my box.

I couldn't find many posts in this forum about these designs so I was hoping to start some more discussions and see if there are ideas already in place. All part of learning.

Appreciate your time.

[airhill]

"You are needlessly attempting to make a simple Vapor Management Still complicated. What you are proposing doesn’t improve the function of Vapor Management but adds to the complexity and makes operation more difficult. The round wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented."

Current VM's have an inherent flaw, they do work but the design and control is a matter of guesswork and practice. You do not have a round wheel.
If you look at the two design's for VM's in the Compleat Distiller you will find the ideal then the practical. The ideal controlled the vapour to both the reflux condenser and to the product condenser. The practical only to the product condenser .
The proposal, even though I am a little unsure of the design, is sound and is Vapour Management.

[plamrock]

"You are needlessly attempting to make a simple Vapor Management Still complicated. What you are proposing doesn’t improve the function of Vapor Management but adds to the complexity and makes operation more difficult. The round wheel doesn’t need to be re-invented."

Current VM's have an inherent flaw, they do work but the design and control is a matter of guesswork and practice. You do not have a round wheel.
If you look at the two design's for VM's in the Compleat Distiller you will find the ideal then the practical. The ideal controlled the vapour to both the reflux condenser and to the product condenser. The practical only to the product condenser .
The proposal, even though I am a little unsure of the design, is sound and is Vapour Management.

Thanks airhill.

I think I have read compleat distiller about 4 times now (love it). I appreciate how it details not just the benefits but also the limits and problems with the designs. Knowing what is wrong is teaching me more than knowing what is right. Call it a personal problem of mine but that's a red rag to me.

QUOTE: "You may think of other [designs], and we encourage you to do so, because innovation and experimentation are the most enjoyable parts of this hobby." This is the part I like, the innovation and design. Yes Rad is right my experience in lacking, and plenty still to learn, i suppose this is why I was going to the source for info with this thread so I thank those who have helped out.

So probably lots of work to do I am sure, but given (more experienced) others are working/building the same design I am going to keep bouncing ideas off them. I'll get my pot done in the meantime for stripping (although the temptation for using this head for stripping is getting to me! Aargh).

Maybe the drawing was not so good which caused problems. I'll see about making this a little better.

Cheers!

[HookLine]

No in principle problem with the idea of a proportioning valve, but it is tricky to actually build a valve like that from scratch.

And the correct link to my drawing file is:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... hp?id=7370

[plamrock]

No in principle problem with the idea of a proportioning valve, but it is tricky to actually build a valve like that from scratch.

And the correct link to my drawing file is:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... hp?id=7370

Thanks Hookline that's a very worthy document!

I suppose you end up designing and building to your resources. In my case I have a friend who works as a steel fabricator (TIG specialist) and I also managed to pick up 2 and 3inch 316 for only $10 /m.

For those in Sydney (Aus) wanting SS tube keep your eye on ebay. The seller has heaps.

[emptyglass]

If I may, it takes 3 things to make a still

Knowledge, ability, facilities.

Knowledge one will overcome a lack of the others.
Ability is good to have, but with no knowledge, can be a bad thing.
Facilities. Some guys have knowledge and ability, but without the tools, it ain't going to happen.

But the rub is, you can spend as much time making a lemon, as you can something that works.

Spend a bit of time checking out the reasearch and theory page before cutting metal. Spend some time there and you will see that there is more to this game than the complete distiller, not to take anything away from it, there has just been advances made.

Remember to go back to the start, what do you want to make? a flavored product or a neutral? (sorry if I missed it) Your still design should be chosen with this in mind.
If you want whiskey or rum, the stripping pot still may also be all you need.

[NcHooch]

X2 ....
I'll never understand why so many new folks want to design something new when they've never pitched a sachet of yeast ...(not sayin that's you Plamrock).
In the end, what it comes down to is this, to make good hooch, you need a good working still, and you need to know how to make a good wash. You came to the right place to find a large variety of available still designs that have been proven to work well, now get to work on that wash.
After you get some experience under you belt, then it's time to tinker.

[plamrock]

Ok, I take the hint . 'Back in your box newbie' . Probably best if I leave this thread there then.

Since originally posting I have found (and been directed) to a lot of discussions and construction techniques on proportioning VM heads (including this design). I am happy to say in the end this is definitely not a new design and has a lot of information already developed which has been very helpful in fine tuning and construction .

Anyway thanks to those who have provided advice. Appreciate the responses.

[emptyglass]

Don't take it personaly.
Its just that so many men have been there and done that, before both you and I, that most ideas have been tried, in one way or another.
The internet has been able to bring a lot of these ideas together.
You can easily learn from the mistakes of others, without cost. Can save a lot of time in the long run. A good design can save you hours of running time. I have done 12 hours long still runs, but the novelty wore off that real quick for me.

All I might suggest is don't be put off by being a newb, we were all there once.
Put the horse before the cart by starting with the type of drink you would like to produce.
Then have a look at some designs for that product, you will see tweaks that you might want to add to your design.

[plamrock]

Don't take it personaly.
Its just that so many men have been there and done that, before both you and I, that most ideas have been tried, in one way or another.
The internet has been able to bring a lot of these ideas together.
You can easily learn from the mistakes of others, without cost. Can save a lot of time in the long run. A good design can save you hours of running time. I have done 12 hours long still runs, but the novelty wore off that real quick for me.

All I might suggest is don't be put off by being a newb, we were all there once.
Put the horse before the cart by starting with the type of drink you would like to produce.
Then have a look at some designs for that product, you will see tweaks that you might want to add to your design.

Ha! Nothing personal taken at all emptyglass . Thicker skin that that. Always chasing the neutral and a VM design after working (drinking) with friends and their potstills. (They are my strippers, I should clarify Pot Strippers, hang on is that worse). Found what I was after on other threads, hence my comments about finishing this one.

Cheers

[thepatchworkdoll]

Hi Plamrock hows this for a hairbrained idea for a Proportional Splitting Head. Any comments Rrealy appreciated.
Regards
Patch

[DAPHELP]

Idea looks good patch but i don't see how you can vent it safely?

[thepatchworkdoll]

Hi Dahelp I know that I forgor to swow a vent pipe on each of the condensers. I will definately fit them.
Regards
Patch