Baking soda to improve distillate?

[Sawce]

"Once I learned this I changed my process to double distil everything. After the first distillation I throw in some sodium carbonate and aerate for a week before distilling again. I don't separate the heads from the second distillation because there's nothing to separate and the result doesn't need carbon filtration. More importantly, nothing I boil off ever goes down the drain - not a single drop. My end-to- end efficiency from sugar to drinkable spirit is 90% with the cost of consumables and wastage very low. Plenty depends on your ingredients, equipment and process, but you get the basic idea." So I came acrossed this on the main site and I'm tryin to make sense of this. Does anyone here use sodium carb to improve their distillation process? What is the point or rather what benefits r there in doing so? Is this process recommended for rum or other spirits that rely on flavor? Also the author explains that they allow this to aerate for a week so would the distillate have to be cut before allowing it to sit and be aerated? So many questions

[Dnderhead]

it brakes ethyl acetate into acidic acid and ethanol,,(fruity smell and sharp taste) if one or the other is not removed it can convert back,especially with exposure to 02.

[Sawce]

So is it necessary or recommended that the wash be treated with sodium carb and then aerated?

[rad14701]

What do you do with your foreshots, drink them...??? Baking soda doesn't have magic properties so the foreshots will still end up in your spirits...

[flyingdutchman]

Hi,
Sawce I believe Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3)is not the same thing as Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3) which is commonly refered to as baking soda. Notice on the parent site on person is talking about Sodium Carbonate while the other is talking about Sodium Bicarbonate. Sodium Carbonate is the end product of treating Sodium Bicarbonate with a stronger base such as sodium Hydroxide (NaOH)

Sodium bicarbonate reacts with bases such as sodium hydroxide to form carbonates:
NaHCO3 + NaOH → Na2CO3 + H2O

+1 Dunder is giving you an excellent description of base catalyzed hydrolysis of an ester.

ethyl Acetate.png (1.07 KiB) Viewed 11839 times

http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaete ... etac-e.htm
In this case the ester is ethyl acetate to form Acetic acid and ethanol. In all likelyhood you are probably forming sodium acetate and ethanol (note the Na+ and acetate-). Where you would then need a proton donor to turn sodium acetate to acetic acid. What Dunder says about it going back is also quite true the reaction itself is in equilibruim meaning it goes backwards and fowards. Interestingly Ethyl Acetate itself can be commercially made by the exact reverse reaction of ethanol with Acetic acid with the classic Fischer Estrification reaction.
I believe a stronger base is commonly employed at least in the lab often say NaOH and perhaps judicious application of heat to alter the reaction kinetics would also be quite helpful in speeding this reaction up. I notice you say you let it sit a week. I am unclear what the O2 is doing in this reaction?
Finally I suspect ethyl Acetate is but one impurity found in your distillate and other things can and do distill with the ethanol.

[Dnderhead]

"Baking soda doesn't have magic properties so the fore shots will still end up in your spirits..."
yes instead of ethyl acetate (real bad) you will have acidic acid or sodium acetate(not so bad),,and over time it will convert back to ethyl acetate.so in time (with out cuts)it will be back to where you started.
o2 will speed this up.

[Sawce]

Oh ok so really it's no point in doing this if I end up back where I began? I haven't distilled anything yet I'm currently gathering everything I need to build a pot still. I just don't want to miss any steps or complicate things since I'm still a noob.

[Dnderhead]

you can do it,with neutral/vodka,it will give a bit more ethanol and cleaner cuts,,but YOU NEED TO MAKE CUTS.with out cuts it can go back the way it was.

[Coaster]

@ Sawce,

From reading your postings in this thread I get the impression that you believe if you add either Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate that you do not need to make Foreshot/Head/Hart/Tail Cuts.

No matter if you add or do not add either Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate you still need to make Foreshot/Head/Hart/Tail Cuts. Adding Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate makes if easer to make Cuts but does not alleviate the necessity to make Cuts.

Suggest reviewing the ‘Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still)’ thread for information on how to make correct Foreshot/Head/Hart/Tail Cuts ->

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=13261

Regards,
Coaster

[rad14701]

For novices, I wouldn't recommend relying on using any compounds to artificially compress the otherwise natural cuts... It's best to learn the simplest methods before attempting to use other tactics that I prefer to refer to as crutches... The KISS concept works best and forces you to determine exactly what is happening and make any necessary adjustments rather than attempting to shortcut your way to pristine spirits...

[Sawce]

Oh ok tru thanx all for the knowledge/posts

[mash rookie]

I have on occasion used baking soda when double distilling neutral that I was not happy with. I add it directly to the boiler before running. It does seem to help a little.

I am extremely picky about my neutral. I make very tight cuts on heads and tails and carbon polish it after that. Finally I ad ½ teaspoon of fine sugar per 1500ml to change the feel on tongue and throat.

When my Russian friends drop by I am proud to serve a neat shot in a Russian style tall slender shot glass.

I know many say that vodka should have some flavor. Not me. I want mine smooth as silk with a bite that would be described as a nibble.

[flyingdutchman]

I dont think I will try it any time soon but one interesting thing is the difference in reported boiling points between ethyl acetate and acetic acid.

Ethyl Acetate-77.1C
Acetic Acid- 117 - 118 C

Ps I spent a brief amount of time in Russia and i completely agree I like thier style of vodka more than flavored but thats just my preference

[mash rookie]

I dont think I will try it any time soon but one interesting thing is the difference in reported boiling points between ethyl acetate and acetic acid.

Ethyl Acetate-77.1C
Acetic Acid- 117 - 118 C

Ps I spent a brief amount of time in Russia and i completely agree I like thier style of vodka more than flavored but thats just my preference

They taught me that the best vodka in US stores is "Russian Standard" brand. Good stuff.

[zaph1]

Where did Sawce imply that you wouldn't need to make cuts? The original author, not Sawce, didn't say he wasn't making cuts, just not the heads. That would infer that foreshots and tails were still being cut. One could guess that a slightly larger foreshot would be taken, but there is no evidence of that. Once the ethyl acetate is converted to ethanol and acetic acid, the acetic acid isn't going to boil off until WAY after the tails. That means once distilled it isn't in the mix to convert back to ethyl acetate since it never boiled off unless you forgot and left the still running until it was dry in which case you would probably have other problems.

[mash rookie]

In his first post I think he meant to infer that he made his cuts on the first run when double distilling. On a later post he says that he has not even ran anything yet.

I found this post interesting. Also something I learned from the parent site and found to be helpful, I now have a better understanding of what is happening. Thank you flying Dutchman. I agree zaph1 that it is being left in the boiler and than thrown out. Of course heads cuts are still the most important cut. There are more undesirables than ethyl acetate.

[flyingdutchman]

Hi Zaph,
I think for me at least it was where he said

My end-to- end efficiency from sugar to drinkable spirit is 90% with the cost of consumables and wastage very low.

that led me to believe he was not making alot of cuts. Now maybe what he meant is he saves the cuts he doesnt use to redistill later I dont know?
Even then though, 90% efficieny after multiple distillations seems a tad high.
Either way it seemed to me like people were just warning him that he still needs to make cuts for his own safety.
I have to agree that with the high boiling point of acetic acid or the even higher boiling point of sodium acetate it seems like they should be easy to seperate out. I guess to really prove it one could try adding white vinegar to a wash to see how easily it seperates but I doubt anyone would really want to try that.

[bentstick]

+1 flyingdutchman, I run a plated column and if 50/60% are kept I am extatic!

[Odin]

Not sure I understand correctly, but when I make whiskey, I (in terms of abv) get rid of 3% fores, 17% heads and 23% tails. Leaving me with 57% of hearts.

When making a vodka, I enlarge my head and fores cut (combined) to 22/23%. Leaving me an awesome 50% or a bit more of hearts at 96.5%.

I found my experiments with using whatever soda to convert ethyl acetate to ethanol ... disapointing. Maybe for folks re-distilling fores, heads and tails from a whiskey run into a vodka? I don't do that. Rather get rid of the nasties ...

Odin.

[edge]

How do commercial distillers get away with continuous stills?
Isn't everything smeared...including foreshots?

Are the better vodkas batch distilled or is most vodka continuous?

I am mainly looking for rum so will be pot stillin but really curious on this subject.

edge.

[mash rookie]

Are the better vodkas batch distilled or is most vodka continuous?

Most commercial vodkas are made from "NGS" neutral grain spirits manufactured by ethanol distillers on a large scale for fuel or consumer use. Either diluted,flavored or redistilled into Gin flavored products than branded.

[Braz]

Edge,
I think you are right on both counts. Continuous stills smear everything. That's why "cheap" vodka is so bad. "Good" vodka is likely batch distilled and/or filtered.

We can do better, te-he. But don't spread it around.

[Odin]

... usually pot distilled like three times, filtered for a month, then kept at rest for another month.

But that is for the good vodka's only.

Odin.

[edge]

Thanks all for the insight.
edge.

[jimmyjames1981]

For what its worth sodium carbonate can be made by baking sodium bicarbonate on a cookie sheet in the oven,

[GuyIncognito]

I tried this for the first time recently, and I’d like to give it a few more tries before I come to a final conclusion. My understanding of chemistry is limited, but reading elsewhere suggested it is critical to provide plenty of baking soda and plenty of water for the reaction to occur.

I’d saved all the heads cuts from a whole bunch of miscellaneous runs, ending with about 12-13L of mixed heads. These heads ranged from mildly pleasant (late brandy heads) to almost unsniffably volatile. I also poured in 4 liters of tails, as I needed the jars for something else. So essentially a feints run. Everything that went in was something I’d really never consider drinking if my nose worked. The smell from the mixture was quite strong, and highly varied.

I cut this down with water to ~30% abv, and mixed in ~1tbls of baking soda per liter. After swirling and mixing, I got a very opaque, saturated solution which did quite a bit of fizzing. I assumed that Fizzing=Science In Progress, so I put an airlock on it and left it sit. The carboy had cleared within a few hours with a cake of undissolved baking soda at the bottom, so I roused it again with similar results (could probably cut down the amount of baking soda). After a day, I replaced the airlock with a very (very) loosely affixed bung.

After about a week, I decanted into my pot still (leaving behind most of the baking soda sediment) and ran it. I collected in .5L jars, and made what seemed like reasonable cuts, collecting around 8 L from ~87% down to 30%. After a few days airing out, ‘hearts’ of the batch were very clean smelling and tasting with little of the original flavors. I let my roommate sample it, and she said it smelled like nothing, and when pressed said it smelled like ‘ethanol’. The ‘heads’ were somewhat mild and smelled similar to cheapish commercial vodka, but they were definitely still present and I don’t think I’ll be using them.

I don’t think it is a magic solution to heads, but I got much more ‘neutral’ results than I’ve ever coaxed out of my pot still before (and used some heads I’d normally have not). Probably if you had a reflux still, that would accomplish a similar end.

[HolyBear]

After reading an ol post from master Dunder,... I tried using baking soda in my neutral pot wash... he's right, it brings out the nasty fruity smells and flavor that makes cuts sooo much easier. He trueley is a master.... but I respectfully also agree with Rad, at first you should also seek to make cuts without sodium bicarbonate added to your boiler so that your nose can be tuned in without a crutch.... I think,.without the technical brain power of the flyingdutchman or sir MR have, that it may add a little to your yield, but that should be for later, after you develop a nose like a bear!!!!