Multi Modular Build

[smokin barrels]

Hey all, I have been on here getting Ideas for about 6 months now. It is finally time for the designs i have made from my research to see the light of day. Northwoods brewer and I will be starting this build soon but wanted to post designs to get input first. As the title states, these will be modular and extremely flexible. Northwoods Brewer and I will be making 2 flutes, 2 LM/VM Hybrids (1 each), and a pot still with thumper attachment (to experiment with). Please, any input and/or questions you have will be welcome.

The building starts next week!
-smokin barrels

[smokin barrels]

I was pm’d that my plan on posting links would most likely not work in the long run so I have decided to show how flexible everything will be. I was trying to find a way to demonstrate how each part will be utilized in each still and found that a Venn Diagram fit the bill nicely. My build will differ from Northwoods Brewer’s build mainly through the VM head to allow it to be used as an in line thumper head (seen in a few posts).

[pfshine]

you did very nice work on all the drawings. I wish i had the time and money to put into those projects. What kind of boiler are you gonna use and what kind of heat (gas or electrical). I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. but just a heads up not everybody wants to download a bunch of PDFs so you might just want to post them as pictures.

[smokin barrels]

Thanks! The boilers are going to be 1/2 barrels and the thumper option will be a slim 1/4. I will be running Electric and Northwoods will be using propane (I am trying to convert him). As for time and money, Northwoods has found some great deals out there (I have too just not as great lol) and my work schedual is kind of strange so it gives me time every other day to play!

[johnhopper1957]

That first one is nearly exactly the same as how I do mine but I don't use the plates, 2 reducers sitting on top of each other then have the 1 inch in the center extend up to form a dam then drill a hole into the reducer for the off take then on the bottom reducer drill Down parallel to the column to keep the thermometer out of the reflux return path. Mine is for a 2 inch, just noticed yours is a 3 inch so you couldn't reduce down to 1.

[smokin barrels]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that those are tri-clamps. This is due to storage and flexibility of design. The head of the Still is a 3x2x2 reducing tee. I picked this as the sectional area of two 2" pipes is very close to that of one 3" pipe. My thinking was that if the two branches try to equalize pressure, this would be beneficial and allow me to maintain vapor velocity. Here is a close up of Northwood's VM head in further detail. The take-off line has a 2" gate valve which gives a reflux ratio of 1.3:1 fully open (due to restrictions inside of valve). I have done that math and determained reflux ratios with each quarter turn of the valve (not fun). The stop on the top of the tee will be filed down so that the pipe is allowed to go into the fitting to aid in reflux centering.

3x2x2 Reducing Tee VM head

[smokin barrels]

Here is My VM head. As you can see the pipe that comes out of Northwoods VM head has been removed and replaced with a large clamp. This will be a modified 3" cap that will allow me to attach it directly to the fitting instead of the pipe. I will file down the retention ring in the fitting so that I can have the pipe slide all of the way through. I have 3 pipe dimensions planned so far. One will be the line in for the thumper which will allow vapors into the thumper and then flow through the outer sleeve into the condenser. The downside with this is it would be possible to run the still with the ball valve closed and no vent to atmosphere (I have a locking method that will be described later to insure it is not mistakingly done). The other two pipes are both to be used in the reflux column. I have a short one that will aid in centering reflux back down the column and split vapors in the head via the Ethanol Vapor Density Principal. The other will split vapor due to stream splitting. I have seen talk throughout the forum about which is better but have decided to experiment: The same still in every way except for the method of vapor splitting.

Smokin Barrels VM head

VM head with EVDP adaptor

VM Head with Stream Splitting Adaptor

VM head as in-line thumper

[myles]

In this VM head configuration with the reflux condenser in line with the column, you might find it an advantage to restrict the column below the vapour splitting T. Doing so will increase the turbulence within the body of the T and faccilitate the spliting of the vapours.

The problem with the inline condenser design is that if the vapour is not turbulent when it leaves the column, there is a tendency for it to go straight past the VM port. There are various things that can be done to prevent this, a little bit of packing under the reflux condenser to change the back pressure, an orrifice below the T, some form of obstruction below the T.

There is also the modification that prevents the reflux condensate from transiting through the vapour splitting section. It is collected below the condenser, routed external to the column and reintroduced at the top of the packing. This also acts as an obstruction to introduce turbulence. The idea of a modular system is good though.

[smokin barrels]

Thanks for the suggestions! I was hoping that the slant plate boka section woul help restrict the flow. But then again, it will not always be there (on mine at least) due to height restrictions in one of the places I will be distilling. I think that I will add packing as part of the experiment on vapor splitting methods as it would be a good oportunity to show the differances. This experiment is getting bigger and bigger, I wonder how I am going to dispose of all of the product...

[smokin barrels]

I am curious if any of you have suggestions on plate spaceing for the boka section. I have downloaded the pdf but in all honesty, I doubt that 1/4 spacing is enought for a 3" column reduced to 2". Would 3/4 of an inch be more appropriate?

[rad14701]

I prefer 3/4" for 2" and 1" for 3", with 1/2" the minimum for any column diameter...

[smokin barrels]

I prefer 3/4" for 2" and 1" for 3", with 1/2" the minimum for any column diameter...

Thanks rad, I guess I will be bumping it up.

[effyeah]

Iv got a nearly 3 inch space between my bok plates on my 3 inch column. Plenty of room to add a 2 inch sight glass later to watch the reflux build up and fall back onto the packIng.

[smokin barrels]

Iv got a nearly 3 inch space between my bok plates on my 3 inch column. Plenty of room to add a 2 inch sight glass later to watch the reflux build up and fall back onto the packIng.

You are giving me ideas.... I like it. One of the things I enjoy about my hobbies is showing how it work and describing it. Many of my friends are like me and want to learn as much as they can about everything.

With a gap that large, are ypu worried about capillary action pulling most of the distillate past the lower plate? I guess it wouldn't hurt to make a tab on the top plate ho help guide the distillate down.

I may go with the larger spacing with a sight glass, my wife (further refered to as She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or swmbo foe short) is a fan as well.

[rad14701]

I'd be concerned with too much splash action due to the excessive drop from the top plate into the collection pool... It may or may not be an issue...

[Andy Capp]

I know i'm a novice but wouldn't it be better to do away with the gate valve on the thumper design? What would happen if the gate valve was left closed when running the boiler? I thought you needed a clear path for vapor to escape from the thumper.
I dunno, perhaps i am looking at the design wrong.

[smokin barrels]

I know i'm a novice but wouldn't it be better to do away with the gate valve on the thumper design? What would happen if the gate valve was left closed when running the boiler? I thought you needed a clear path for vapor to escape from the thumper.
I dunno, perhaps i am looking at the design wrong.

You are correct, the vapor path does need to be clear and there is a danger on having the still becoming pressurized if the valve is closed. I wanted there to be no possibility for this to happen as there will most likely be people around who don't know anybetter so I will be locking it in place. I will do this by using a u bolt to lock the valve in the open position.

The reason I am using the head with the gate valve is because I will also be able to use it on my reflux column which is nice considering the 3x2x2 reducing tee ran me $65 and don't want to get another lol. I also have not place a triclamp there as i have decided to not have clamps on the horizontal to increase the strength of the arm (the clamp on the elbow has been removed due to this line of thought).

[mnadamn]

I'd be concerned with too much splash action due to the excessive drop from the top plate into the collection pool... It may or may not be an issue...

Thanks rad, I did not think of that. I think I will try looking into area versus gap. The big concern I have is the 3" to 2" reduction. That will double the vapors going through
At any given moment.

[myles]

You are correct, the vapor path does need to be clear and there is a danger on having the still becoming pressurized if the valve is closed. I wanted there to be no possibility for this to happen as there will most likely be people around who don't know anybetter so I will be locking it in place. I will do this by using a u bolt to lock the valve in the open position.

The reason I am using the head with the gate valve is because I will also be able to use it on my reflux column which is nice considering the 3x2x2 reducing tee ran me $65 and don't want to get another lol. I also have not place a triclamp there as i have decided to not have clamps on the horizontal to increase the strength of the arm (the clamp on the elbow has been removed due to this line of thought).

Nice drawings by the way.

I wouldn't trust locking the valve open, don't take the chance. Just bypass the gate valve with a "Safety Relief Valve" instead. I did something simmilar a few still evolutions ago.

[smokin barrels]

I wouldn't trust locking the valve open, don't take the chance. Just bypass the gate valve with a "Safety Relief Valve" instead. I did something simmilar a few still evolutions ago.

In that case, what if I were just to drill a small hole in the gate valve? I could see that working but then it raises the question as to if it will have an adverse effect while using the head in reflux mode at the start of the run while trying to maintain equilibrium.

What do you guys think? For now I think I will keep the U-bolt as a lock as it will keep the gate open. I know that people would be able to get around it easily but it is one of those things that if people see you are trying to stop it from turning they would leave it alone. I guess I could also put one of those lovely "do not operate valve" signs I 'borrowed' on a recent brewery tour.

I have started cutting the vast amount of metal that has accumulated between northwoods brewer and myself but my wife had to steal the camera. Will be posting pics wed night when she gets home from a retreat. Some copper porn will start coming your way soon!

[myles]

Why waste a good valve. It is very easy to fit a safety bypass that will automate the potential overpressure in a safe manner.





This was a hybrid rig with both a column and a pot still output. In the event of an incorect valve selection, the vapour would automatically divert (through the reflux condenser atmospheric port) into the product condenser on the VM column at a preset boiler pressure.

EDIT: The plan was to close both the VM valve and the atmospheric port valve on the reflux condenser when in pot still mode. If anything went wrong on the pot still side, the safety relief valve would release to full bore, and vent the vapour through the condenser to prevent flamable vapour being released. Its easier to deal with a liquid spill, compared to a vapour spill. It never hapened though.

[effyeah]

For the record i have not installed the 2"sightglass as i started building something with a few more windows lol. but with my bok slanted plates i have a 1" overlap of the plates and there on a 45 degree angle so it does pool a fair bit, i dont think the splashing is going to make a great deal of difference. might have to put that sightglass in to find out.

[mnadamn]

I have found the solution in case someone decides to close the gate valve on the still while running in pot mode (reflux has an opening to atmosphere above deflag). What I have come up with is a gate valve bypass with an 8psi pressure relief valve designed for steam with a teflon seal. If the still hits 8 psi, the valve will open, allowing vapor to bypass the gate valve and flow into the condenser. The best part is, I won't have a bomb and will still be able to enjoy the product

[smokin barrels]

Hey guys, Sorry the porn is late to the party, but here she starts...

a VM head test fit

This is the test fit of my VM/inline thumper head. you can see the gate valve bypass going on top of the gate valve and also the watts 315 8psi steam pressure relief valve I installed on the left side of it. The only thing I am waiting for now is some hard solder... I was planning on using stay silv 15 with a stainless treatment (for attaching ferrules) and typical flux. Have any of you used stay silv 15? Is there something better I should use? 1 concern that i have is that I have a basic MAPP torch from home depot and the 1100+F melting point of stay silv might be too high (I know MAPP burns at 1700+F) considering the 2-4" pipe and thick brass gate valve.

ALso along the lines of putting a sight glass on the boka attachment, I have decided against this as after holding a 3/4 union (for the gate bypass) I feel that this would not be big enough to look through, especially 7 feet up. I have yet to crunch some numbers on the boka spacing but shall be doing that soon. My next project will be pics of all the parts! see ya'll soon