The Turbo 500 and UJSM

[Damoz]

Hi All... first off - this forum is awesome, only found it last week and it's excellent! Well done guys.

I'm a VERY rookie masher and waiting for my first UJSM to finish bubbling away. I have a Turbo 500 reflux still, and before everyone starts telling me that I should be using a pot still for whiskey / bourbon, I know! I bought it prematurely and now I'm trying to make the most of it, with bourbon being the end goal. I've done some Turbo neutral washes and ready to progress to the real stuff So I've searched the forums but can't seem to find too much specific info, so was hoping you kind folk may be able to assist. I'm confident enough in the mash / fermenting / backset process, but have a few specific questions relating to running it through the Turbo 500... does anyone know:

1) Is this possible?
2) Is the setup / plumbing the same as the standard reflux / condensor run where I collect my neutral at 93%? Or do I need to run the alternative (water distilling) setup which bypasses the reflux? Either way, I'm also assuming i'll be removing all the ceramic saddles to let the flavour pass through as much as possible?
3) What temps has everyone run it at, and do we know roughly how hot we can go on the Turbo 500 without melting the plastics?
4) I know the T500 is efficient at production, so heads and tails are minimal... do we still need to follow the standard heads / hearts / tails collection and sepraration procedure?
5) I've read a post where someone with a reflux said that doing a stripping run was the biggest single change they added to produce and a better product. Is this possible with the T500?
6) Any tips or specific instructions would be greatly appreciated.

I feel a little like I'm throwing myself in the deep end here but I can't be the first guy trying this so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

Thanks

[Dnderhead]

befor going ferther take a look at this-http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46
and--http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=11640

[Bevan]

Beauty, Damoz
I'd like to insert the column piece of the T500 into the retailer that sold it to me (I specifically told him that I'm a bourbon drinker) but we need to make the most of it, I guess. Here's hoping you get a response.
Cheers

[Dnderhead]

id did a bit of searching and it appears that the "turbo 500" cant be used as a pot still.
use as intended or not at all.

[rad14701]

The T-500 should not be pushed beyond 85C/185F, which means no pot stilling... Above these temperatures the synthetic components can be damaged... This advice comes from the manufacturer... Obviously, you need to stop listening to the brew shop guys because they don't know much if anything about distillation and/or the products they are selling... You're where you need to be now...

[Bevan]

So, Damoz

I've done my first run of UJSSM recipe in the T500 and here's the goss....started with 23L of wash.

Things to understand upfront....
1. I'm assuming that I understood the link below that talks to foreshots / heads / heart / tails stages correctly) - and thanks to Dnderhead for this.
2. I used ABV to determine my stages and not taste / smell - I don't see how someone of my inexperience is going to do the dogs-arse-intro as a method of determining what's what. Just drew lines-in-the-sand arbitrarily as regards what was which stage
3. My initial temperatures were hard to control (foreshots and head) as I'm using a 200l drum and a water pump (not a tap) but it got hotter like Dnderhead said it would
4. I removed the ceramic saddles and put a couple of handfulls back to keep the copper bits in the column from falling out. No good reason to keep copper other than it gave me a bettter hill-billy feeling (just thought there should be copper involved - jerk-off reason, I know but that's the story))

Foreshots - ran it at between 66 & 70C and kept the first 150ml aside (had ABV of 75%) - will use this as a cleaner

Heads - ran it between 70 & 75C and got an ABV of 92-95% - ended up with 350ml before the ABV started to drop significantly (which is when I went, rightly or wrongly, onto heart stage)

Heart - ran it between 79 & 83C (with a lot of ****ing around) and got 1.8L with an ABV of 63% (note - my initial ABV was in the 80's and I ended with just above 50% to get this average). I tested every 150ml to check my ABV as I was using this to determine when to start hearts and end hearts stage before going on to tails (hope this makes sense)

Tails - kept running at about 81C and only got about 100ml at 30% before I called it a day (too little output for too much time)

Summary:
1. It took me just as long as a session with the shop-bought kit does to make vodka (I thought it would be quicker due to higher temperature run but no big deal)
2. Yield was significantly down on the 8-9L I normally get from the Vodka kits (total hearts & head = 2.1L). I'm pissed about this but it's about the quest for a Beam alternative for me ultimately so I'll man-up and stop bitching
3. This is much more labour intensive than Vodka kits (checking ABV's etc) but you feel like you actually made the shit instead of just sitting there like a poncy dick getting pissed while the wash distills itself
4. Price per litre substantially more than kits but I refuse to support the brewshop because of the crap advice they gave me in the first place (pot vs column still etc) - and I told them so in a manner that won't allow me to go back, anyway
5. Taste of the base product (heart - and I use the term loosely) is hugely different to the Vodka-base from the kits. Can't explain it but it's certainly more "earthy", at the risk of sounding like a dolphin-spanker. I haven't tried the bourbon base yet as it needs to lie in wooden cubes for at least a week but will let you know

Haven't got a clue as to whether I've done this right or not but I'm just going to persevere. The guys are really helpful on this forum but the amount of info on trying to make "the proper shite" using a column still is rarer than Yeti-pee so I guess it's trial & error.

I'm now going to follow the UJSSM recipe for my second wash and so on...

Will let you know how I go - appreciate you doing the same

Cheers
Bevan

[Dnderhead]

"""the proper shite" using a column still is rarer than Yeti-pee so I guess it's trial & error."
yep! like cooking you can be told what to mix,,told how to mix,,what to cook it on/in
but how long or how much that part is almost imposable...thats all up to you and it takes a bit of practice

[Damoz]

OK, interesting results... i'll give it a go over the weekend and report back... sounds like it's turned out OK for version 1.0!

[Damoz]

OK, so I've done my first run with it. Interesting and confusing results to an amateur like me!

So what I did was decided not to try and replicate your conditions Bevan, as then we would end up with most likely the same results and that's not going to help us in anyway. So the first major difference I did was run it in the 'water distillation' setup, which changes the plumbing and essentially bypasses the reflux. This also means that I used no ceramic saddles in the column... however I am the owner of some new copper scrubbers so I included a small amount in the column. This is a setup that the still is also designed for, and I've been told that running it this way essentially makes it act as a sort of pot still by bypassing the reflux.

So I charged the boiler and let her warm up, then started collecting and adjusting the water outlet temp. I have noted the results here, each jar I am using contains 200ml of output:

JAR # / Water outlet Temp / Head Temp / ABV
1 42 89 65
2 42 89 57
3 42 89 55
4 48 89 55
5 48 89 55
6 48 89 50
7 55 89 50
8 55 89 48
9 66 90 45
10 66 91 45
11 70 92 40
12 71 93 40
13 71 93 40
14 71 94 35
15 71 94 35
16 78 94 20
17 78 94 20
18 82 96 19
19 82 96 19


Output: As per normal, got rid of the first 200ml. The taste doesn't seem to vary all that much between the first and last few jars, except for the ABV which makes it harsher in the first few. Then again, i'm terrible at tasting things so can't be 100% sure Regardless, not sure what it's like compared to yours, but the best way I can describe it is it's first off kinda like you said perhaps, an 'earthy' sort of sour taste, perhaps a touch of yeast? Then finishes off with what i think is the corn kick at the end.

Anyway... as per the UJSM guidelines, i'm going to keep all of them aside as feints and add them into the boiler just before the next run. I also added back in about 5L of backset to the next generation of the wash so we'll see what happens. I'm a little concerned that I may have used an inferior yeast (just tried a standard cooking yeast as it was all I had, other than Turbo yeast which i'm avoiding), so I will look into where I can get some better distilling yeast from. If this second run does not produce something drinkable, I think I may follow the common consensus and look into a pot still and keep this thing for a good neutral wash only.

Would love to have a conversation with someone Melbourne AUS based to get me pointed in the right direction... there is so much information available that it becomes very difficult to find what you're looking for.

[rad14701]

Damoz, your numbers have me concerned... The T-500 should not be run to temperatures above 85C/185F due to potential damage to the synthetic parts... This is even stated by the manufacturer... Therefore, the T-500 should only be run at reflux column temperatures and the run should be stopped before the temperature passes 82C/180F... You should not be attempting to go any deeper into the tails than what can be collected to that point... If you want favored spirits, or want to do stripping runs, then you need to use the right tool for the job...

This is a safety issue which should be taken very seriously... Running to extremely high temperatures potentially damage the still to the point of leakage... It can also taint your spirits, making them unsafe to drink...

[thecroweater]

Hi Damoz I built a good 2" pot still for about $50 . If you don't have the tools/skills to solder or braze a trusted plumber could put it together for you . If that's not a possibility for you I know of some still manufacturers not far from me (Ballarat area) at least one is a member here PM me and I can see if I can put you in touch . Either way I wouldn't try to use the turbo still as a pot if for nothing else the forums are full of examples of these products developing leaks , sometimes water sometimes ethanol

[Damoz]

As appears in many famous last words... "I'll try anything once!". My results were less than favourable and it seems at this point my quest to make any decent flavoured spirit will not be as a result of my Turbo 500. I think I may touch base with thecroweater and take him up on an offer to hook me up with someone.

[thecroweater]

Glad be have been of help mate , just didn't want to see ya bugger up that new still . Coincidence catching up with you hey . I just happened to be there to get a bit of a tutorial on running a plated still . Pity you missed it was one of the most interesting things I've seen in the field of distillation . being a LM and pot stiller I was astounded with what could be achieved with the perforated plate

[Damoz]

No worries, it's funny who you run into isn't it!! The plated still is amazing, very efficient and great output. One day I'll commission one when i have the room.

[Bevan]

Gents
Appreciate any help I can get...
Just put one of many previous UJSSM washes into my T500 and got it to boiling point - problem is that the water outlet temperature hasn't changed. Usually it's in the 55-65 degree range but it's remained cold.
No alcohol is being generated, needless to say.
I turned it off for fear of blowing myself up, assuming that the temp and pressure would continue to build over time.

Any help appreciated as to why this is happening

[Damoz]

hi Bevan... so let me get this straight... you've setup the 500 as per normal and it boils your wash but the water outlet temp doesn't move and just returns the same cold water out?

[Dnderhead]

did your wash work off? if no alcohol then it wont work.
did it boil over a and plug somthing? (you cant fill the still "full")
is the product condenser working? (with out cooling you will git vapor

[Bevan]

Thanks for response, gents
To answer your questions:
Damoz - yes, the wash boils but water outlet temp remains constant (and cold)
Dndrhead - my wash bubbled away, as per normal, and there were no air leaks during the fermentation process,from what I can tell. I filled it to the max mark on the still (approx 25L). I'm not sure what you mean by "product condenser".
I've still got 25L of UJSSM and 25L of kit-based wash lying in my fermenting buckets and nothing to process them in
Again - I appreciate your comments / attempts to help