what angle for a liebig????

[Devonhomebrew]

ive got it all ready to be soldered together. can i have a downward liebig or does it need to be at a 45* angle?

[beowoulfe]

Mine is at roughly 45*, but that is only to get it to my collection jar. It could have been any angle far as I was concerned, just so I got it to the jar.

[Devonhomebrew]

i just put together it all and well i need to have it at an angle i need to solder it all together

[whiskeytripping]

Devon, sweat a copper union on it then you can take it down, or change the degree of angle at any time this way is much more versatile option.

[mash rookie]

Vertical is better for a liebig product condenser. Hot vapor wants to rise. Liquid wants to fall.

If it is a pot still you will want to research pot stills to understand lyne arm angle. I have never run one but understand that lyne arm angle will affect flavor. (not to be confused with condenser)

[Devonhomebrew]

gonna settle with 45* there abouts coz well boiller isnt very high

[ro palinca]

gonna settle with 45* there abouts coz well boiller isnt very high

good choice, because despite the heavy polemics, there are no absolute numbers. Just make the angle to fit your needs. You may adjust the riser
for parasitic reflux if it is neccesary.

[Devonhomebrew]

i have no intentions on moving to reflux at all

[ro palinca]

i have no intentions on moving to reflux at all

you will always have a parasitic reflux.

[Devonhomebrew]

little bit of a noob what is that?

[ro palinca]

little bit of a noob what is that?

there are no philosophical difference between a pot still and a reflux still, just the amount of "the said reflux". Read the HD forum as much as you can.

[Devonhomebrew]

Cheerss man

[HookLine]

Vertical is better for a liebig product condenser. Hot vapor wants to rise. Liquid wants to fall.

A plumb vertical Liebig can work when the output rate is fairly low, like in a VM, especially if the vapour path inside the Liebig has plenty of turbulence.

But when the output rate is much higher, like in stripping (wash, low wines) runs or pot spirit runs, a Liebig condenser will do handle more power when angled between about 20-70º below horizontal. You want gravity to help force the vapour onto the heat exchange surface, not suck it straight towards the output end.

Around 45º is as good an angle as any.

[Barney Fife]

Hook, is that theory, or from experience?

I ask because I've run my liebig in many configurations, and plumb-vertical always worked best for knocking-down vapor at high input(4500w in my case). I've been running my "pot-still" column lately, and while I can use the liebig vertically, I got tired of swapping jars on the floor, so I raised it(it's attached with a 1" union, as someone else suggested already, so I can run it at any angle I wish), and now have it at about 10-20 degrees from horizontal. While this is very convenient and much easier on the old knees and back, I cannot knock-down 4500w with it this way, and even at 3000w, the product comes-off a lot warmer than it ever does with the same column and liebig used vertically. I've stuffed more copper scrubbies into it to help, and while it did help, it still doesn't come close to the same performance as using it vertically. I'm cooling it with very cold well water, too. I believe what happens is that the vapor only makes limited contact inside the liebig, since the liquid immediately falls to the 'floor' of the liebig and runs-out, creating a warm path on a small contact area, where the plumb-vertical liebig presents all of its surface area to the vapor and liquid, all the way down.

Maybe my liebig acts differently than others, but this is how mine runs...

[ro palinca]

@barney
Maybe your condenser is too short for the job?

[mash rookie]

His condenser is not too short if it works for him in the vertical position. It comes down to vapor contact time and vapor /surface ratio. Alcohol vapors are lighter than air. By being vertical you force them to stay as long as possible. Liebigs are my least favorite condenser because they have too large of vapor space. Some vapor does not easily touch the cooler walls. They are simple but the least efficient design.

[ro palinca]

@ Mash
I understand your point, but mine was that it was too short for the job for "diversity" angle. I personally use a worm, after some tests.

[Barney Fife]

Nah, she's long enough, at about 4 feet in length of 1-1/2" over 1".

I did another rum strip this evening, and set up the liebig at 45 degrees. Still had me squatting like a monkey giving birth all evening, but it proved the point once more; it's way more efficient at 45 degrees that it was at 10-20 from horizontal. I also noted that the outside jacket remained very cold up to within a few inches of the outlet, despite the exiting water being at a near-boil. Last night's rum strip, at 10-20 from horizontal saw the outer jacket get really warm most of the way down. The distillate was also noticeably colder all the way through the run, and didn't get to what I'd call "hot", even at 4500w. She puked after about 15 minutes at full song(4500w), but other than that setback, the liebig handled it, with water flow to spare. At 10-20 off horizontal, she wouldn't knock-down 4500w at all...

I agree that the liebig isn't the most efficient condenser design, but that's not what this thread is about.

So, in closing, I have to say that the steeper the angle you can run the liebig at, the better, more efficient, it will run.

Now, back to enjoying what is likely the BEST white dog rum I've ever produced! More to come, on the subject...!

[HookLine]

Interesting Barney.

I did a quick test of mine when I first built it way back, and vertical had less capacity than about 30º angle below horizontal.

But I did not have anything to generate vapour turbulence in the product path/tube of the Liebig. So that might make a difference when vertical.

You got vapour turbulence in yours?

Will compare it again when I fire the still up next time. (Haven't run for a while, got plenty of booze, and too much else on for a while.)

And, yeah, Liebigs are not the most efficient design condenser.

[Barney Fife]

I have a bunch of copper scrubbers stuffed into it, otherwise, it's just a simple 1-1/2" over 1".

Measured it yesterday, and it's 32" long.

Ran the spirit run of the previous 2 strips yesterday, and returned the liebig to 10-20 degrees off horizontal, and once again, had to fiddle with the water flow all evening, used a LOT more water, and the distillate was warm, and at times hot, for the entire run. Even running a lot of very cold well water through, enough to keep the outer jacket cold its entire length, the distillate still came-off warm. Without a doubt, the closer I get it to vertical, the more efficient it is.

My old water heater/tank that was my closed-loop recirculating cooling system is being used as a pressure tank for our well right now(bladder blew in the damn well tank), so I have to use the well water. I'm trying to use a minimum of water, and it's from doing this that I've really noticed the difference in efficiencies. With the recirculating system, it was pretty much a "set it and forget it" deal, with the only thing required of me was to swap jars as they filled, but with the well water and trying to use as little of it as possible, it's a chore!

I've also never see a picture of a commercial condenser of any design that wasn't vertical.

[ro palinca]

@Barney
for what I see and used, the majority were 45 degree or less for pot still. I can upload a bunch of pictures, including some laboratory stills.

[myles]

This issue of liebig angle, seems to have diverted a little bit. IMO the reason why most folks incorporate an ability to change the angle BETWEEN runs - is that they wish to use different sized collection jars.

For example when doing a strip run they might wish to collect directly into 1 gallon glass demijohns. That's just what I do myself. But on a spirit run they might wish to use pint jars.

Now having tried various combinations I would say to go for the vertical option (provided you have the height available) and factor in something between the end of the liebig and your collection system to cater for different sized containers.

I am incorporating a big liebig style condenser (it is actually a Friedrichs, but all the points about the angle still apply) and I shall be mounting it as near to vertical as I can get, but I have space restrictions so it will be on an angle.

Any vertical extension to the pot riser to get it up to the input to your condenser, will make no difference to anything at all. Minimal passive reflux is involved so it will make no change to your flavour profile. If warm up time is an issue you can consider insulating the riser, but I tend not to bother. But DO insulate your boiler itself.

[Barney Fife]

I can upload a bunch of pictures, including some laboratory stills.

Please do! Still pictures are always welcome here....

[ro palinca]

@Miles
Very good POW about insulation; my old riser was 20 cm high (+40 cm the pot still head) and because I love a good head cut, make another connection
with 150 cm riser (+40 cm pot head), but for brandy it was to neutral...I lost flavor because of parasitic reflux, so, now I have different length of
insulation (black foam) to cut the reflux...just sayn

[ro palinca]

I can upload a bunch of pictures, including some laboratory stills.

Please do! Still pictures are always welcome here....

......
this is the proofing still:

[rad14701]

Barney Fife, I'm curious as to whether the problems you are having are due to the extra packing up in the liebig...

While I'm not an expert at physics and weather are concerned there is a dew point phenomenon which occurs in a liebig which happens naturally... With the addition of packing there are obstructions from this dew point happening naturally and as a result more heat backs up and the vapor doesn't start to collapse until further down in the liebig if at all...

That bit of extra packing is good in a liebig that huffs because it is actually working too efficiently and we are dirtying things up a bit to compensate... Essentially, the dew point transition is happening too far up in the liebig which causes the vapor in the boilers headspace to partially or even fully collapse...

Enough of that crap...

Your packed lliebig works well in vertical because that would be its most efficient orientation for this application... But when the liebig goes towards horizontal it loses efficiency to the point where the packing degrades performance to the point of being unmanageable...

Or maybe I'm just some hillbilly theorizing while sitting on the crapper...

[mash rookie]

LOL yah, Your a hillbilly on a crapper.

[Barney Fife]

.....
this is the proofing still:

Dude, that's a toy still....

Show us pictures, or links to, commercial distilleries' condensers that aren't vertical.

Rad, I may have to test your theory and remove the packing, but I put it there for a reason in the first place, and that was because it couldn't knock-down vapor well enough without the packing. But maybe, just maybe, there's too much in there(though it's far from being completely packed, and all of it is near the lyne arm, not the end).

I should add that my liebig is made with old, heavy-wall copper; I would imagine using a thin-wall DWV 1" would be more efficient.

In the end, the real solution for my pot still setup is a taller column/lyne arm, insulated to avoid too much reflux, so that I can run my condenser vertical and not have to do 2 hours' worth of squats...! Or a shorter shotgun condenser.

But the point here is still that the nearer we are to vertical with a liebig, the more efficient they become. Until someone else will do back to back to back runs at different angles to prove me otherwise.

[ro palinca]

@ Barney Fife
Dude, that is not a toy, it is a scientific laboratory still (professional glassware) for proofing distillates, that long thermometer have .1 degC accuracy,
and the "k" for the entire line is 98.6%... for my other still I have photo in Welcome Center for ro palinca. After I think about it,
yeah, maybe it's just a toy