I vote to "out" copper from the homedistillation process!

[Odin]

Use turbo's and you may find yourself tied to a tree, blindfolded, and some forum members clubbing you for what you just did. Use plastics and most forum members won't even bother to start clubbing you. They would probably just start emptying their fire arms at you. Metaphorically speaking.

They would be right. Safety is a big part of our hobby.

And since safety is important, I vote to out copper from the homedistillation process. It has no place here. It is dangerous.

Why? How come? Isn't a copper tube or pipe resistant, as glass, as stainless steel? No, it isn't.

This is what happens in the normal homedistillation process. We fire up our stills, introduce strong alcohol to our copper columns, make cuts, finish when tails arrive ...

We then probably would rinse the column out and let it dry. Nice & dry, waiting for the next round of distilling. Maybe one week later. But "nice & dry" don't mean sh*t to copper. There is nothing nice about a copper column waiting for you to use it at a later moment. It isn't passively waiting for you to put it back to service. While you are working, mashing, bottling, having a drink, raising your kids, the copper tube is corroding.

Copper corrodes under the influence of air. Oxygen to be more precise. And copper that has just been treated by both heat and high abv alcohol ... well, that's corroding even faster.

The corrosion process of copper does three things:
1. It chemically compounds (and all copper compounds are to be considered toxic - causing Wilson's Disease for example).
2. Surface area increases dramattically, thus creating more and more copper/copper compound/product contact.
3. Particle creation booms. Just stick your finger in a dirty old copper pipe, and you will get what I mean.

Copper corrodes into toxic compounds. Those copper compounds - due to the increased surface area - get a lot of contact with the product we are making. And vapours rising up will transfer part of the increased amount of particles over into your destillate. And if it isn't the vapour causing the particle transfer, the copper compound particle contamination can off course also be caused by liquids travelling down those beautiful copper product coolers.

I vote copper "out".



Odin.

[pounsfos]

you hold a valid point odin and I see where you are coming from

But how do commercial distilleries, with 300 year old pot stills deal with this, as we all know they analys there product to see it meets profil requirements, but they would also pick up any toxic built up chemicals would'nt they?

Also isn't a cleaning run with vinegar for example help remove the old layer to make it shine like brand new again, which is why we do periodic maintenance.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, but the claim you are making I am sure is well researched coming from you, but just want to see your debate or info you have.

[bellybuster]

Also isn't a cleaning run with vinegar for example help remove the old layer to make it shine like brand new again, which is why we do periodic maintenance.

The cleaning run with vinegar is to remove toxins and filth from soldering/manufacturing. Doing a vinegar run later defeats the process of oxidizing the copper. Oxidised copper is much more resistant to the hot vapours etc that we subject it to than shiny new stuff. Notice your product tastes so much better after your first few runs? Probably less to do with experience and everything to do with a seasoned still head.
It's all about choices, you cant name a material that I cant find a reason not to use it. Picking the lesser of all evils is the key.
I think glass is the way to go but cant go that route because I'm a klutz therefore copper shows less hazards for me.

Every discussion needs a nay sayer.

[Odin]

Pro distilleries do two things different.

Sometimes they pretty much run their stills continuously, thus minimizing air/copper contact. And if they don't distill on a continuous basis, they usually run them like at least every day.

And if they don't use it for a bit longer, they use detergents (hope that's the right word) to clean out the columns prior to a next run.

They do this to counteract the compounding, surface expansion and particle contamination.

But as homedistillers we don't do that. And that's dangerous.

There are however solutions to that. And I feel they should be discussed on this forum. And I also feel the danger of working with copper and the treatments you need to give your copper to distill in a healthy way should be promoted by HD. Maybe posting this tread in the Must Read part for beginners?

So here are the solutions. I made them as easy as possible for us, thus keeping copper as a resource to make our stills from a vialbe option.

Here it goes:

1. To prevent copper compounding and rust formation, you should put all the parts made out of copper that have contact with your likker (or the gasses making that likker) under 40% strong alcohol after distillation is done. This prevents copper/air contact. Clean the column, etc. very well, prior to the next run. We don't want 40% alcohol on the outside of a boiler, when heating with propane, for instance. So, just take out your copper parts from that 40% alcohol, and rinse them very well with a lot of water. Then set-up your rig and distill. After distillation, rinse the copper parts with cold water and put them under 40% alcohol as soon as possbile.

2. To get rid of copper rust and copper compounds already existing in your copperware, this is the way to go. Put all of the copper parts in contact with likker (or the gasses making your likker) in a 50/50 solution of Coke (yes, Cola) and water. Leave it there for 12 hours. After 12 hours rinse the copper parts with cold water and put them under 40% strong alcohol (see point 1). Don't drink the Cola.

If all of us using copper parts (and I have a copper Alambic myself for instance, not even talking about copper SPP and copper Rashig Rings) use these two steps, we will be fine.

I hope the administrators can chime in and tell me where I should post these "rules". I feel it is increadibly important this is part of our standard ways of working, when using copper parts in the vapour/liquid path.

Regards, Odin.

[Doogie]

I think the police just sent a B-2 to your location ... should be there in a few hours ...

[aj2456]

I see your point however without knowing how high the levels are in the final distillate its hard to be that concerned, - i like to see the evidence

especially when all copper stills have been cooking up acidic washes for stilling without a big fuss- as copper nastys arnt soluble in alcohol, so i would imagine in consuming the amount of distillate a person would need to drink over the years to get copper poisoning the ethanol etc would cause them problems long before then.

[Odin]

Haha!

When I wrote the original post, I was wondering that maybe I should call it: "I vote to "out Odin from the homedistillation process"!

I think your B-2's will take care of that!



Odin.

[bellybuster]

Odin, thats some pretty drastic steps there.
I beg to differ on the cleaning process for distilleries, at least here. The seasoned still head is desirable and they go to great lengths to ensure the actual cleaning process does not interfere with that "seasoning". That is usually a big part of the presentation on any tour that I've been on. They liken it to a seasoned cast iron pot. Cleaners are incredibly gentle in order to not disturb the patina on the "inside" of the still. The actual head itself is seldom cleaned.

[rumplestiltskin]

Very interesting. I too would like to see the facts/statistics. Kind of out of the box thinking anyway.

[ga flatwoods]

Odin, someone once told me about smoking a cigarette that there is a trade off for everything we do. The toxicity you are referring to is a lot less than a cigarette yet we still smoke, and drink! Wouldnt storing your still in 40% ethanol bath be a little hard to do? The container would be made of what? I guess if we used enough fittings, we could dismantle it into a five gallon bucket full of a sugarhead distillate as long as the bucket was food grade.
GA Flatwoods

[woodshed]

Odin, thats some pretty drastic steps there.
I beg to differ on the cleaning process for distilleries, at least here. The seasoned still head is desirable and they go to great lengths to ensure the actual cleaning process does not interfere with that "seasoning". That is usually a big part of the presentation on any tour that I've been on. They liken it to a seasoned cast iron pot. Cleaners are incredibly gentle in order to not disturb the patina on the "inside" of the still. The actual head itself is seldom cleaned.

Agreed. Although I would love to have one of Odins glass columns one day. One of his whole units for that matter.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say no one wants to see you go anywhere Odin.
Topics such as this are thought provoking and lead to healthy debate. Healthy debate is a fantastic learning tool. Keep it up.

[rad14701]

Not over-cleaning copper is a good part of the solution... I see far too many members wanting to keep their copper shiny and clean, and this is counterproductive... I love the appearance of a good patina and that patina goes a long ways towards keeping copper, and us, healthy...

My copper and solder never gets tarnished or has green or black gunk on it like some wet copper gets... And even if I need to do repairs or modifications I try to minimize any disturbance of the patina as much as possible...

While I can see some minor concern I don't want folks to think Odin is running around as if shouting that the sky is falling... Attain a good patina and avoid corrosion... I don't see eliminating copper as the best option but if it helps someone sleep at night, so be it... With ethanol being a poison we could kill two birds with one stone by scrapping our stills and giving up drinking...

As with everything in life, we need to pick our battles...

[Jimbo]

Odin, does this have anything to do with you selling all stainless steel automated stills? You also forgot to mention some important roles copper plays in distillation

* Copper absorbs sulphur compounds and keeps the distillate sweet.

*Copper reduces bacterial contamination.

*Copper has excellent heat transfer properties, helpful for both heating and cooling of vapors.

*Copper prevents the production of ethylcarbamat which is a toxic substance formed from cyanides (cyanides are found in the stones of fruits).

* Copper improves the quality of the final product. If the quality of the mash is not microbiologically perfect, copper will improve the aroma of the final product.

I'll be keeping my copper still head. And copper wort chiller. And copper leibig.

[Stainless dude]

I think you might be getting the bee's nest stirred up Odin. This will make a good topic and interesting.

[Odin]

@ Stainless,

That was the goal. Love copper myself. We incorporate it in many of our designs. And since we do, I feel the lessons we learn should translate to our hobby. I don't truelly want to ban copper, but I do want to see a healthy discussion on how to treat copper in such a way that we all stay healthy too.

@Jimbo,

We actually just introduced a catalyst filled with copper rashig rings for our mostly stainless steel rigs. So if this was about me selling ... not the best idea and/or moment, to bring this up, right?. I say it to you all as I tell it to my customers: you can use copper, but it comes at a price. Quite some work to keep it in shape & to keep your drinks healthy. We actually made that catalyst out of glass, so a distiller is always reminded not to leave it in after a run.

And yes, copper does a lot of good things. Especially on taste rich drinks. And given the usually slightly higher sulfur content of fruit washes, that's where copper can play a big role. When it is introduced at the right moment in the process. Turning non-perfect washes into drinkable likker ... I feel another "stirr the bee hive" kinde post coming up. It will be called "Copper in the vapour path: a medicine for a bad wash".



Anyhow, copper has benefits. That's why treating it right is even more important. Keeping it under 40% alcohol after a run and cleaning it with 50/50 cola/water for 12 hours.

@All,

So funny. Just visited an old castle just 10 miles from here. We saw the weapans rooms, we saw the bed rooms, we saw the kitchen. Brand new & very modern, given the fact it dates back to 1900. All pans & pots made out of copper. "And," the guide tells us, "the inside was off course done over with tin. Not that healthy either, but better than copper!" No such thing as coincidence!

Odin.

[Edwin Croissant]

Old news Odin, on June 7th, 1555 the Town Council of Nürnberg gave the following ordinance to the apothecaries:

As nobody can deny that the distilled waters, if they are made in metallic stills and vessels, such as tin, copper or brass, are very harmful to the bodies of mankind, the Town Council has ordered to warn the apothecaries seriously, that it is their duty from now on no longer to burn waters in such tin, copper or brass apparatus and they shall remove such harmful apparatus and use only glass flasks to burn their waters.

I am however reluctant to call for an immediate scrapping of all those beautiful made copper stills.

First of all Wilson's disease is a genetic disorder that causes copper accumulation in tissues (so copper accumulation in the body is not the cause of the disease, but the result), and second copper is a necessity in our diet. It is all about the dose, without oxygen will will die, pure oxygen at more then 1 bar overpressure will kill us. I think (not backed up by any research) that the average home-distiller has a much bigger chance to die from the ethanol then from the copper compounds in his distillate.

Live long and prosper and to be safe, drink only water ( however in 1555 the water in Nürnberg would have probably killed you).

Edwin

[Odin]

1555?

Sorry to be a bit late!

Odin.

[MitchyBourbon]

Odin,

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. You think up controversial subjects, post just enough to get a good simmer going, then step back and watch the show.

well done, you are teaching us all.

[varocketry]

Seems like ODIN's probably talking about the INTERIOR of the copper pipe, right.

I use Samahon's design for my Potstill. So at the top, use a pipe union connector with crimped/capped pipe to close it off.

Invert the column and fill with the 40% solution as discussed.
Close it with a 2" tri-clamp blank and clamp it up. Doesn't seem too difficult to me.

But, have we agreed there's a need to do this?

[Jimbo]

Odin,

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. You think up controversial subjects, post just enough to get a good simmer going, then step back and watch the show.

well done, you are teaching us all.

I looked up 'instigator' in the dictionary. It said it was of Dutch origin. Something about living 3 feet below sea level makes you like to start shit.

[ChairLawyer]

Oh godsie minnike Odin!

[googe]

I see the issues with safety is great, but we need to see study results on this subject Odin for us to have a real view. Its jus he said she said other wise, where did your facts come from?, links?, books?, its just scare tactics.

[Odin]

Not here to stir shit. I do think I raise a valid Q. How to treat our copper in order to make a potentially dangerous situation into a "homedistillation approved" situation.

On results and copper poisoning, particle transfer ... please make some samples and have them tested. If we are doing that, throw in some samples that have been in contact at the same time.

Odin.

[stairman]

I call a do over....I just got mine built and odin changed the rules!

ps I looked up the disease and it is a result of the inherited trait that copper is in over abundance and causes problems...not the other way around.

[googe]

I know your not trying to shit stir . I just like facts, can you direct us to the information that varifies high temp ethanol corrods at a level that is unsafe for this hobby?. and the other points you cover?.

[Odin]

Just google, Googe, and you will find everything there is to learn about copper rust formation and copper poisoning!

Regards, Odin.

[goose eye]

I see Odin is trying to get a poison as safe as possible.

In bee keepin we got a problem with viroa mites. So
we gotta kill a bug on a bug an there comes to a point
where in comes down to tolerable levels. They
gonna be there an accept that fact.

So I'm tole

[shadylane]

I found this on wiki "studies have found that people with mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, had heightened levels of copper in their systems."
This might explain my abnormal infatuation with copper porn.
I appreciate Odin's post on getting rid of heads cuts. It caused some of our most knowledgeable members to give up their trade secrets on fermentation.
But I draw the line on eradicating copper porn. The very thought of this has exceeded the limits of my psychiatric medication.

[Odin]

Copper is addictive.

Odin.

[shadylane]

Copper is addictive.

Odin.

But stainless steel shines.